Really? Low 30's is bad now?
94 Rockets:
Maxwell - 29.8%
Smith - 40.5%
Horry - 32.4%
Elie - 33.5
Cassell - 29.5%
Brooks - 37.7%
Bullard - 32.5
03 Spurs:
Parker - 33.7%
Jackson - 32%
Bowen - 44.1%
Ginobili - 34.5%
Smith - 33.1 %
Kerr - 39.5%
Taken into account how few 3s Bowen and Kerr were throwing up, I'd say there really isn't that much of a difference.
We all know the the player's stats, team accomplishments so at the end of the day, let me ask each and everyone of you, if you were a GM (all things being equal) and you were starting a franchise who would you draft? Tim or Hakeem? Who would you build your team around? This should settle the Tim > Hakeem argument.
Any takers?
Can we close this stupid thread ????
Man, this $hit is getting comical.
Why did Hakeem's Rockets fail wo win anything in 99 and 00?
You do realize that Hakeem was in his late 30's then right?
If Duncan's Spurs dont do well in 7 years, is some idiot going to be on a message board saying "why didnt his teams win in his twilight years when he was washed up?"
Duncan making it out of the first round every year does nothing to mitigate the fact that the league is so much clearly watered down now as opposed to previous eras. Any fair-minded fan alive in both eras can see the difference. Dont believe me, then look at the ratings. Why are they so far down from the 80's/90's even though there is so much more involvement by players of different cultures and nations? Could it be that it's because the product has gotten that diluted as the league has expanded and kids come into the league as green 18 yr olds instead of going to College and becoming basketball players? Hmmm, I wonder...
Hakeem, easily. As would most neutral fans (see message boards earlier on this thread) and the 2 players who played with both guys in their primes.
Ask Robert Horry and Elie who they'd take. You wont like the answer.
What is your obsession with diverting attention from the issue?
Your assertion was that the Rockets were a great 3 point shooting team. The question was not "Did Duncan have better 3 point shooters than the Spurs"
You asserted the Rockets had good 3 point shooters and as usual, the poster shot down your false claim with facts. Shooting in the low 30's is not considered good in this league. Never mind what the Spurs shot. In this league, shooting at a low 30's clip from the Arc is below average, plain and simple. That's close to Charles Barkley territory.
You were clearly wrong that Hakeem had these dead eye 3 pt shooters. Only one was statistically, that being K. Smith. I mean 2 of the guards you are citing as great 3 point shooters in Maxwell and Cassell were below 30% and you claim that is great support? My goodness...
They were absolutely not similar cir stances and opportunities. Not even close...
Can you go ahead and name me another team that has better three point shooters?
In 95, the Rockets made 646 3P, and that is far and away the best in the league. And the team shot 36.76%, which is almost a full % above league average.
In 94, the Rockets made 429 3P, which is also tops in the league at 33.39%, slightly above league average of 33.33%, and you are trying to argue that the Rockets are not a potent 3 pt shooting team?
The Rockets, unlike any other team, can spot 4 3 pt shooters on the floor with Hakeem, and run the whole inside out offense to perfection. It is true that Hakeem ran the offense and made it happen, but Hakeem also required this makeup (or having a HoF caliber C by his side) to have any team success.
And at the end of it, this is why I wouldn't choose Hakeem over Duncan to build a team around because he requires a particular makeup to be successful.
This is clearly a no-brainer. Tim Duncan is the greatest player in the NBA since Michael Jordan.
Hakeem Olajuwon? He only won 2 championships because Jordan wasn't in the NBA at that point.
Ok, so the Rockets were an average 3 point shooting team. They had the most attempts, but their %'s were right in line with league averages.
If you win a le and your 3 point shooting is AVERAGE, it goes without say you are winning for other reasons than an AVERAGE conversion rate on 3's.
Duncan is the one who relied on a HOF Center in David Robinson to be successful in his early years (if Duncan had to guard Shaq on his own and be the main offensive weapon at the other end like Hakeem had to in 95 vs. Shaq, the Spurs would never ever have beaten LA), and then an all star caliber backcourt the last few years (Manu being the Spurs playoff MVP in 2005 and Tony Parker the Finals MVP in 2007).
Please tell me you didnt just call Ralph Sampson a HOF Caliber Center, please.
The bottomline is that Duncan got his in an inferior era of basketball. The league is so diluted now that a team as sorry as the 2006 Miami Heat were able to win a Ring and a guy like Marcus Camby is the DPOY.
FYI, I dont remember the Rockets being a prolific 3 point shooting team in 1986 when they beat the Showtime Lakers. I guess that about shoots your garbage argument about Hakeem needing a "certain makeup" around him to succeed into the toilet. And no, Ralph wasn't HOF Caliber. Not even freaking close. He was a poor man's Yao Ming.
And Duncan never beat a player the caliber of Jordan.
Duncan's record in the playoffs against the Super Duper top 10 all time players in the NBA:
vs. Shaq: 2-3
vs. Karl Malone: 0-2
He can't beat Shaq or K. Malone, but would have beat Jordan? Uh, ok.
BTW, Shaq is easily the best player in the NBA post Michael Jordan.
Duncan is great, but some of this talk about him being better than Shaq, Hakeem, MJ, Bird is just crazy. No one outside of a Spurs board would believe that. He aint on that level.
LOL. This coming from a fan of a team who's first le came the very year after Jordan retired. I guess it didnt matter that Jordan wasnt around then, huh?
Would the Spurs have won in 99 if Jordan hadnt retired?
I don't bother with what-if's. I don't have to rely on that. 4 > 2. Cheers.
Wow so Duncan won with scrubs!
He is the best!
Ridiculous as
Steph jackson,
21year old TP
Old dave
Bowen
Wow all HoF's
They are not scrubs but hmm well
Tim won the freaking le with them
Would hakeem made the playoffs without a real 3pt thret?
The rules are changing
Jordan had no zones so he was mainly one on one playoing a lot of isos
Far and number one in MAKES, not ATTEMPTS. I am beginning to wonder whether you actually read what is written, or you are just intentionally avoiding all the points to make your arguments legit.
If you are the opposition, and you KNOW that any one of the other 4 players can make a 3 at an average of 33 to 36%, and that they will shoot a 3 when left open, would you give that up to double team a big man down low who shoots 50%, the expected value is pretty much the same. It's a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation.
And yes, before the number of injuries, Ralph Sampson was a HoF caliber center. He was a constant 21/11 guy who can pass and shoot from the outside. He was a 7'4" Chris Webber/Kevin Garnett hybrid. He was an all-star the 1st four years, All-star MVP and All-NBA 2nd team in his 2nd year.
Tim Duncan had one season with a center who averaged 20/10, Hakeem had two, with another 19/10.
As for Manu being Spurs playoffs MVP, I really didn't know that they had such a thing, honest.
As for beating the Lakers being some kind of triumph. I already stated in the previous post that Hakeem needed 3pt shooters or a HoF caliber centre next to him to be successful, and yes, Ralph Sampson was a HoF caliber centre before his string of injuries. Besides, not like the Rockets won the le that year.
Last edited by ambchang; 09-22-2007 at 03:18 AM.
[QUOTE=bobbyjoe]I don't know, but an anonymous poster on a Spurs board propping the opposition ad naseum is pretty comical. Brother you're preaching to the choir, but hey Einstein, let me clue you in, they weren't good enough. Get it? Good!Man, this $hit is getting comical.
Why did Hakeem's Rockets fail wo win anything in 99 and 00?
If he's the transcendental player you're propping him up to be then he should have gotten the job done. The excuses for when he was younger just don't fly. Since the different era argument has been exhausted, what next? Coaching and organization?You do realize that Hakeem was in his late 30's then right?
Why not? There's some idiot on a Spurs board giving us every excuse under the sun as to why 4 > 2 does not mean 4 > 2. And in 50 years who's gonna care? All they're going to see is that Hakeem Olajuwon played for the Houston Rockets, won a total of 2 NBA championships and was regarded as one of the premier centers of his era. Whereas Tim Duncan won 4+ NBA championships and was widely regarded as the best Power Forward to ever play the game, hence the moniker the "Big Fundamental."If Duncan's Spurs dont do well in 7 years, is some idiot going to be on a message board saying "why didnt his teams win in his twilight years when he was washed up?"
Well, if my aunt had a package then she'd be my uncle! Reality check. Let's not contemplate on the ifs, it has no place in real life. Going by your fantasy matchups the Spurs suck eggs compared the mighty teams of yesteryear. I don't know the outcomes and just as importantly neither do you. Let's deal in something tangible and concreteDuncan making it out of the first round every year does nothing to mitigate the fact that the league is so much clearly watered down now as opposed to previous eras. Any fair-minded fan alive in both eras can see the difference. Dont believe me, then look at the ratings. Why are they so far down from the 80's/90's even though there is so much more involvement by players of different cultures and nations? Could it be that it's because the product has gotten that diluted as the league has expanded and kids come into the league as green 18 yr olds instead of going to College and becoming basketball players? Hmmm, I wonder...
Yeah, that pretty much seals the deal. And as far as "most neutral fans" gimme a link please. What neutral fans are these? Are these the casual NBA fans? The hardcore follower? Media pundits or NBA GM's and coaches across the league? Or is just bobbyjoe?
Sorry if it doesn't augment your rosy little argument, but I've already shown you why their opportunities where similar. One player took the high road and the other player stumbled along the way.
[QUOTE=bobbyjoe]They were at the top of the league as far as 3 point percentage. And see if you can follow along - if they shoot more threes, then law of averages states that they will make more threes.Ok, so the Rockets were an average 3 point shooting team. They had the most attempts, but their %'s were right in line with league averages.
If you win a le and your 3 point shooting is AVERAGE, it goes without say you are winning for other reasons than an AVERAGE conversion rate on 3's.
And what does that have to do with anything? Didn't Hakeem and Shaq have their own big man to help them out? A 75% was still as good as they come, granted, but because of age and injuries he was a victim of diminished capacity. Unless you're trying to say that David Robinson was playing at a HOF level in his later years.Duncan is the one who relied on a HOF Center in David Robinson to be successful in his early years (if Duncan had to guard Shaq on his own and be the main offensive weapon at the other end like Hakeem had to in 95 vs. Shaq, the Spurs would never ever have beaten LA), and then an all star caliber backcourt the last few years (Manu being the Spurs playoff MVP in 2005 and Tony Parker the Finals MVP in 2007).
And there you go again, speculating on the ifs. Tim didn't need to guard Shaq exclusively because he had David and later Will Perdue, Kevin Willis, Rasho, Nazr and Oberto and so on. This was a coaching philosophy. Smart one I might add. If you've got player B who is capable of doing a credible job on player C and taking the load of player A so he can focus on other aspects of the game, go for it. Brilliant move I would say. Tim could have guarded any big man that he played against, but he didn't always have to. Novel concept, I know but hey it worked. I don't know if you noticed but this approached as worked for Pop to the tune of 4 NBA championships and universal recognition that Tim is the best power forward to ever don a uniform. Do you know of a better way that maybe Pop hasn't thought of? We're all ears.
What's the matter? Doesn't playing in 3 or 4 all star games, and winning an all star game MVP count as a pretty good player to have playing alongside you. I hope that share the same thoughts, that namely had Ralph Sampson not been injured so early in his career that he surely would have been a HOF player. Does that not equate to atleast having a 75% David Robinson playing alongside Tim?Please tell me you didnt just call Ralph Sampson a HOF Caliber Center, please.
The bottomline is that Duncan got his in an inferior era of basketball. The league is so diluted now that a team as sorry as the 2006 Miami Heat were able to win a Ring and a guy like Marcus Camby is the DPOY.
Think again.FYI, I dont remember the Rockets being a prolific 3 point shooting team in 1986 when they beat the Showtime Lakers. I guess that about shoots your garbage argument about Hakeem needing a "certain makeup" around him to succeed into the toilet. And no, Ralph wasn't HOF Caliber. Not even freaking close. He was a poor man's Yao Ming.
Yes, this is obvious. Today players are covered when they shoot jumpers, where as in the 80s players took (and let me stress this) wide open 15 footers while the other team sat around wide-eyed.
Just because players were allowed to maul each other in the 80s once in a while does not mean the defense was superior. In fact, since the players used those tactics at all, it means they probably couldn't stay in front of their man to save their life.
Today's NBA sports the best defenses from top to bottom that the league has ever seen. Open jumpers are a thing of the past. You want to make the argument that because players were allowed to body-check each other to make a statement, defenses were superior. I don't understand that logic, but feel free to enlighten me. Games from the 80s, players were left all alone at the 'bows, the line, anywhere outside of the paint was just a shooting gallery, and I've watched way too many of them to be swayed by that idea.
Lastly, you think Parker just "waltzes" into the lane. That is hilarious. Watch the Spurs-Sonics series from a couple years ago. Watch games 3 & 4 from Detroit in the Finals, and tell me that Parker has never been hit while going in for a layup.
Unless, of course, you would really like to make the argument that the Wallace Bros. with Billups and Prince are not a physical team.
Last edited by Cry Havoc; 09-22-2007 at 01:18 PM.
He also constantly faced double and triple teams, handchecks, and getting pushed around and beat up on.
Not many teams run much zone now days anyway
I cant believe this is so hard for you to grasp. Your posts are so filled with inaccuracies and lies it's pathetic.
You say the Rockets did not lead the league in ATTEMPTS and only in MAKES in 1993-1994?
That's completely false.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/.../NBA_1994.html
The Rockets in 1993-1994 ATTEMPTED a full 150 more 3 pointers than the next closest team. That's a full 2 per game. Their conversion RATE was right at the league average, hence they can only be described as an AVERAGE 3 point shooting team.
Ditto for 1995. Again, the Rockets % from 3 was only right at the 3 average, but they led the league in attempts and makes.
Duncan has needed a HOF Center as well (1999-2003) and then after that all star caliber guards (Manu, Parker) along with the league's best wing defender, a guy who shoots his 3's at a far better clip than any of the oh, so lethal 33% shooters you think were the reason the Rockets won with in the mid 90/s.
Your argument is such utter trash that in fact that Duncan's Spurs were the ones in 2006-2007 who shot 38.1% (nearly 5% higher than Hakeem's awesome shooters) and 36.3% in 2004-2005. In both these le seasons, the Spurs shot a far higher % from 3 than the rest of the league so if anyone relied more on 3 point shooters to complement him in le seasons, it was clearly DUncan if you want to look at the stone cold facts.
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