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  1. #626
    Alleged Michigander ChumpDumper's Avatar
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    I think restrictions on serving time are different from restrictions on allowing patrons to smoke. Serving alcohol past a certain hour can arguably affect people outside of your business. There is no such consequence for allowing customers to smoke. Their actions only affect people who have chosen to enter your bar/restaurant.
    But serving any alcohol at any time could affect people outside the bar.

  2. #627
    Forum Official Personal Life Coach BacktoBasics's Avatar
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    But serving any alcohol at any time could affect people outside the bar.
    This is true. The %'s are greater during off business hours though. The responsibility ultimately falls on the dude who can't control his drinking....just like he shouldn't walk into a bar with smoke billowing out of it.

    Interesting analogy though....I think its obvious the benefits of shutting it down at 2am. I guess in the end its just as much of a violation as the smoking ban...although you motor skills aren't impaired from smoking so the argument although interesting is quite the stretch in comparison.

  3. #628
    right about pizzagate Blake's Avatar
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    Paradise Billiards

    Down 18%

    -------------------------------------

    Martini Bar

    Down between 15%-20%

    -------------------------------------

    Cody's Sports Bar

    Down significantly - Might have to close doors.

    ---------------------------------------

    Whiskey River

    Cowboy Dancehall

    Down slightly but not significantly

    ------------------------------------------------

    Murdocks

    Sports bar

    Down 10%

    -------------------------------

    Crystals Restaurant Confectionery Bar

    Out of business

    Pins 100% of the blame on the smoking ban. It was sad to see this restaurant bar going from being standing room only just an average restaurant. There bar money is what ran that place.

    ------------------------------------

    It'll Do Saloon

    Down at both locations around 15%

    ---------------------------------------------------

    Clicks

    Down 22%

    Possibly closing

    ------------------------------

    Bair's Den

    Down significantly

    No figure

    -------------------------------

    Slick Willie's

    Pool Hall for minors

    No change

    ----------------------------

    Theo's

    Down significantly

    Rumored to be changing owners

    -----------------------------------------

    Rascals

    Down

    5%

    Owner thinks they haven't been hit as hard because they're right next to a strip club.

    -----------------------------------

    There were two sections that I didn't get to see. So the list is quite a bit longer than this.

    We'll see how it all stabilizes but the reality is that a large majority of businesses are hurting because of this.

    Adult only businesses where minors aren't allowed.

    These are statistics compiled by a local Pool hall owner. I'm not saying who or where but it was a pretty comprehensive write up he let me in on. There going to remount a pretty substantial fight here in about three months.

    Originally they needed 5k signatures on a pe ion to fight this. They got over 10,000. However only 3,400 were registered voters. So they got nailed on a technicality.

    I'm glad to see a large portion of these owners attempting to come together to fight for this. They're private owner and should never of had their rights stripped in the first place.


    Oh and I could careless if you don't like my source or lack of scanned files or whatever. The real point is that the larger majority of business are suffering from this uncons utional stripping of private owner rights.

    this downturn has nothing to do with the economy?

  4. #629
    right about pizzagate Blake's Avatar
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    Okay. I think its bull to tell someone how to run their private business. An adults only business.
    nah. There are good reasons for zoning laws.

    Auto painting should not be allowed in a restaurant zoned establishment...

    even though you think it might be bull to tell that someone how to run their business.

  5. #630
    Straight Forward PM5K's Avatar
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  6. #631
    right about pizzagate Blake's Avatar
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    Off-topic, but there's an intriguing contrast.

    Consider the present "accepted facts" and regulatory policy respecting confined-animal feedlot operations (CAFO's).

    CAFO's have empirically established environmental and food-safety impacts, but EPA has not only exempted them them from reporting emissions, it has revoked extralabel (i.e., preventive) use of cephalosporin antibiotics in food animals.

    Why should we care?



    http://gristmill.grist.org/story/2008/12/12/133814/68

    Sometimes the lobby is political. Sometimes it is an industry group. But for the last eight years science has been a red-headed stepchild at EPA, OSHA and the FDA. True science and the public interest have been sidelined in favor of industry insiders and special interest lobbies. Politics, not safety, is the driver.

    Relying on public health officialdom and "enlightened" public policy to keep you healthy and safe may not be the way to go, Blake.

    The gods help those who help themselves. Big brother ain't your friend.

    Strike that.

    I meant to say he ain't mine. You can speak for yourself, and I'm sure you will.
    what special interest groups benefit the most from swaying scientific and political opinion towards second hand smoke being harmful?

    do you think the surgeon general was swayed into making this claim?

  7. #632
    Govt, stay away!
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    Government ruins business.

    Yet the people want more government involvement.

    Definition of insanity.

  8. #633
    Govt, stay away!
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    what special interest groups benefit the most from swaying scientific and political opinion towards second hand smoke being harmful?

    do you think the surgeon general was swayed into making this claim?

    Drug Companies.

  9. #634
    right about pizzagate Blake's Avatar
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    Government ruins business.

    Yet the people want more government involvement.

    Definition of insanity.
    I think the people want less second hand smoke in this case.

  10. #635
    right about pizzagate Blake's Avatar
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    Drug Companies.
    how do drug companies benefit with less second hand smoke in the air?

  11. #636
    Forum Official Personal Life Coach BacktoBasics's Avatar
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    this downturn has nothing to do with the economy?
    Bars and/or pool halls typically do okay if not better in downed economies. People love to drink their sorrow away.

    Those figures are post ban. So you really can't argue the trend.

  12. #637
    right about pizzagate Blake's Avatar
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    Bars and/or pool halls typically do okay if not better in downed economies. People love to drink their sorrow away.
    but because they can't smoke, they suddenly don't love to drink their sorrow away any more?

    Those figures are post ban. So you really can't argue the trend.
    You can argue it if you try hard enough. You just don't want to try.

    CORPUS CHRISTI — Corpus Christi’s bars aren’t selling as much booze as last year, but it’s unclear whether a recent smoking ban, the recession or other factors are the primary cause.

    Alcohol sales at Corpus Christi’s bars and restaurants were, on average, down by about $3,000 per establishment this August compared with last August. The drop equates to about an 8 percent drop in alcohol sales overall.

    When only considering alcohol sales at bars and pool halls, the average drop in sales is about $4,800 per bar for August.

    Those numbers come from the alcohol tax receipts reported to the state comptroller’s office. Statewide, tax receipts indicated a 1 percent dip in alcohol sales when comparing this August with last.

    Although some bar owners say the smoking ban is to blame, spending in the city is down overall.

    Sales on taxable goods, which include most items except groceries, were down 13.4 percent from the same period last year, said Constance Sanchez, the city’s interim finance director.


    Statewide, sales tax revenue dropped about 12 percent so far this year compared with the same period the previous year, said R.J. DeSilva, a spokesman for the state comptroller’s office.

    Alcohol tax revenue has stayed relatively flat, he said.

    DeSilva said the comparison of August 2008 receipts to August 2009 receipts could accurately show a decline in sales, although comparing a full year could show more accurate long-term trends.

    The city hasn’t gone a full year without smoking in bars.

    The City Council in December extended the ban on smoking in public places to include bars, pool halls and bingo parlors, and it took effect in June. It expanded a ban approved in January 2005, which extended a long-standing ban on smoking in workplaces to include restaurants.

    Businesses that accommodate smokers with an ashtray or customers who light up indoors could face a $2,000 fine under the ordinance. City officials said no citations have been issued since the ban took effect.

    The declines have hurt some businesses to the point that employees say they may have to close.

    Theo’s Billiard Saloon, 5815 Weber Road, saw a 37 percent drop in its August alcohol sales compared with the previous year, according to the tax receipts.

    Pool hall staff member Josh Kurz said the dramatic drop came after the smoking ban went into effect. The pool hall has no way to build an outdoor smoking area because it’s in a strip center. If sales don’t improve, the pool hall will close in February when its lease is up, he said.

    “I hear customers complaining,” he said. “I’d imagine (the sales drops) are because of the smoking ban.”

    Pool halls like Theo’s saw the most dramatic declines in alcohol sales.

    Alcohol sales dropped 49 percent at Hot Shots Pools and Billiards, 4951 Ayers St., 20 percent at Paradise Pool and Billiards, 5141 Oakhurst Drive, 14 percent at Click’s Billiards, 4535 S. Padre Island Drive, and 11 percent at Rascal’s, 5959 Williams Drive.

    And although most bars across the city have seen their alcohol sales drop, some are bringing in more money than the previous year.

    Molly McArdle’s, 4201 McArdle Road, saw its alcohol sales increase 71 percent and Outta Bounds Sports Lounge, 1402 Rodd Field Road, saw its sales go up 40 percent.

    The mixed reaction makes it difficult to say what effect the smoking ban has on businesses.


    Cities that have passed smoking bans have conducted studies that found prohibiting smoking in bars doesn’t impact alcohol sales. Owners of bars and pool halls have produced their own studies, claiming the bans hurt their business.

    Across the state, recent alcohol sales trends are varied.

    In Abilene, where a smoking ban has been in effect for more than three years, alcohol sales dropped by 13 percent from August 2008 to August 2009.

    In San Antonio, which doesn’t ban smoking in bars, alcohol sales dropped 2 percent.

    Other cities that ban smoking in bars saw alcohol sales go up in the past year: Plano’s sales increased by 12 percent, Austin’s increased by 2 percent and El Paso’s increased by 1 percent.

    Corpus Christi alcohol sales

    August 2008: $6.4 million

    August 2009: $5.9 million

    Cities’ August 2009 alcohol sales

    Austin: up 2%

    El Paso: up 1%

    McAllen: up 9%

    Plano: up 12%

    San Antonio: down 2%

    Abilene: down 13%

    Corpus Christi: down 8%

    Statewide: down 1%

    Source: state comptroller

    August 2009 compared with August 2008

    Source: state comptroller

    The city’s ban prohibits smoking in bars, pool halls, bowling alleys and most bingo halls. It expanded a ban approved in January 2005, which extended a long-standing ban on smoking in workplaces to include restaurants.

    http://www.caller.com/news/2009/oct/...r-smoking-ban/

  13. #638
    Forum Official Personal Life Coach BacktoBasics's Avatar
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    Great article. The figures... even the article supports my updated post. One or two "maybe, might be or possible" remarks are 100% unsupported. Whereas at least the bar owners provide a substantial corroboration of figures to the ban.

    You can construe it any way you like but it doesn't change the fact that the majority of bar/pool hall owners believe the ban played a large part in their decline. Some of those owners have been in the industry through multiple downturns in the economy.

  14. #639
    right about pizzagate Blake's Avatar
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    Great article. The figures... even the article supports my updated post. One or two "maybe, might be or possible" remarks are 100% unsupported. Whereas at least the bar owners provide a substantial corroboration of figures to the ban.
    Your whole copy and paste is unsupported.

    Re-read. The stats showing decline in sales are an entire year from August 2008-August 2009. The ban started in June 09.

    You can construe it any way you like but it doesn't change the fact that the majority of bar/pool hall owners believe the ban played a large part in their decline. Some of those owners have been in the industry through multiple downturns in the economy.
    I understand that bar/pool hall owners believe the ban played a large part in their decline.

    They can be proven wrong rather easily if you were to take the time to reseearch it. It's rather apparent you don't want to.

  15. #640
    Forum Official Personal Life Coach BacktoBasics's Avatar
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    Your whole copy and paste is unsupported.

    Re-read. The stats showing decline in sales are an entire year from August 2008-August 2009. The ban started in June 09.



    I understand that bar/pool hall owners believe the ban played a large part in their decline.

    They can be proven wrong rather easily if you were to take the time to reseearch it. It's rather apparent you don't want to.
    You're right I don't want to. I don't have to. Its not my fight. I posted numbers lifted off a binder I was asked to look at....a binder showing profit/loss and general statements for a number of bars/pool halls in the local area. The binder was composed by the bar owners themselves (over 50). There were bank statements as well. At first glace it appeared to be pretty substantial information based on losses due to the ban. The initial smoking ban has been in place for a lot longer than the amended bar, pool hall and bowling alley ban.

    I don't give a if you don't like my source, it was good enough for me.

    Doesn't change the fact that its a privately owned business and should be run accordingly to the way the private owner sees fit.

    These little old ladies in white tennis shoes can take their causes and shove them up your ass.

  16. #641
    Still Hates Small Ball Spurminator's Avatar
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    But serving any alcohol at any time could affect people outside the bar.
    And allowing smoking in the bar still can never affect someone outside the bar.

  17. #642
    I cannot grok its fullnes leemajors's Avatar
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    big beer is down across the board, only big beer who is making gains is coors light atm. Pabst, Keystone, Schlitz are all up. Austin saw a momentary downturn after the smoking ban a few years ago, but people came back within a few months. A lot of bars also built open air patios, which was a nice bonus.

  18. #643
    Still Hates Small Ball Spurminator's Avatar
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    I think it would be preferable to incentivise running a non-smoking restaurant/bar vs. outright banning smoking. Either tax smoking bars higher or offer tax breaks for running a non-smoking business. Require smoking establishments to post clearly outside the front door that smoking is permitted. This way you'd have a good number of options for both, and you allow owners to run their business as they see fit.

  19. #644
    GR Junior
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    Bars and/or pool halls typically do okay if not better in downed economies. People love to drink their sorrow away.

    Those figures are post ban. So you really can't argue the trend.
    My best friend owns Rocky J's all ages pool hall here in San Antonio where there is no ban on smoking and his business is down a lot this year. Nothing has changed but the economy.

    The smoking ban is a convenient excuse in CC but I think the economy plays a much bigger role than they want to admit.

  20. #645
    Mrs.Useruser666 SpursWoman's Avatar
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    Is it anything like the Rocky J's that used to be on Nacogdoches? I used to live at that place when I was a teenager ...

  21. #646
    right about pizzagate Blake's Avatar
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    You're right I don't want to. I don't have to. Its not my fight. I posted numbers lifted off a binder I was asked to look at....a binder showing profit/loss and general statements for a number of bars/pool halls in the local area. The binder was composed by the bar owners themselves (over 50). There were bank statements as well. At first glace it appeared to be pretty substantial information based on losses due to the ban. The initial smoking ban has been in place for a lot longer than the amended bar, pool hall and bowling alley ban.
    hey, remember when restaurant owners were ing that the smoking ban was going to hurt their sales?

    Quick, name one restaurant that had to shut down because of the ban.

    I don't give a if you don't like my source, it was good enough for me.
    I don't give a if you remain ignorant on the subject either. It's just fun to pop your balloon over and over.

    Doesn't change the fact that its a privately owned business and should be run accordingly to the way the private owner sees fit.
    What if the private owner sees fit to allow minors into his/her strip club?

    it's a business that's open to the general public, so in order to protect this general public, no......the owner should not be able to do whatever the he/she wants.

    These little old ladies in white tennis shoes can take their causes and shove them up your ass.
    Too bad for you they are already shoving them down your throat.

  22. #647
    right about pizzagate Blake's Avatar
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    The smoking ban is a convenient excuse in CC but I think the economy plays a much bigger role than b2b wants to admit.
    fixed

  23. #648
    Forum Official Personal Life Coach BacktoBasics's Avatar
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    hey, remember when restaurant owners were ing that the smoking ban was going to hurt their sales?

    Quick, name one restaurant that had to shut down because of the ban.


    Crystals. I can a name a few more if you like. My brother in law worked there at the time. They went from being slammed to a s of their former selves. It was very abrupt too. Almost immediately the damage begun. He pleaded time and time again through the media to take witness of his once thriving restaurant.

    You're calling me ignorant as 30-40 current business owners are mounting a battle to contest this again.

    If the smoking ban had nothing to do with their declining sales why would 30-40 or more sound business owners waste their time and money to pursue the fight.

    Wouldn't they be sitting back to reap the benefits of being smoke free?

    They're not confused okay...these guys have been though tough economic times because a large majority of them have been business owners for decades.

    You can call me ignorant all you want but the sheer volume of people organizing against this outweighs your petty insults.

  24. #649
    ChumpDumper Lies! 911's Avatar
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    Government ruins business.

    Yet the people want more government involvement.

    Definition of insanity.

    This coming from a man who supported Bush? tell that to the Iraqi's

  25. #650
    Believe.
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    Not just bars and restaurant's are closing from this smoking ban.


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