Spurs To Retire Avery Johnson's Number 6

[whottt]

They didn't take it off the shelf. They didn't make the decision to retire it until after they had already given the number to Cowens (and, if I recall correctly, by that time it was apparent that Cowens was eventually going to get his number reitred).

Link to Loscutoff playing for 15 different teams in his career(because he sucked)?

Oh wait...he's not like AJ.

Link to Loscutoff saying McHale and Parish were boys being sent to do man's jobs?

Oh wait, he's not like AJ.

Link to Loscutoff going after young players in the shower screaming it's mah team, it's mah team?

Oh wait, he's not like AJ.

Link to Loscutoff coaching the Lakers or Knicks?

Oh wait, he't not like AJ.

[ShoogarBear]

Bill Sharman coached the Lakers. To a championship, no less. whotttBoston has been trying to get his number taken down for 35 years now.

[whottt]

Scrubs with retired jerseys usually played their entire careers with those teams...at the very least 80%.

AJ played 19 years and about half that time was spent with other teams...including some of our most hated rivals.

No Mr. Spur case for AJ.
No symapthy case for AJ.
No talent case for AJ.

[whottt]

Bill Sharman coached the Lakers. To a championship, no less. whotttBoston has been trying to get his number taken down for 35 years now.

Bill Sharman is a HOF'er who spent the maximum number of years he possibly could have with the Celtics.

AJ, not a HOF'er, not a Mr. Spur.

[whottt]

It's funny...

There are 3 basic criterias for jersey retirement...

Greatness
Sympathy
Career team player/Beloved scrub/bleeds team colors


AJ meets none of those...


So what they do is find a guy like oh say...Johnny Moore, who meets 2 of those 3...and they'll argue AJ's merit on superiority to Moore in the only criteria that Moore doesn't meet....ignoring the 2 he does.

And the funny thing is...AJ doesn't really even beat Moore out in the one category Moore doesn't meet...they ignore he was crippled and never even really played in his prime...they ignore that his best years were better than AJ's...and Moore actually was the best in the league at something, while AJ never was.


It's really funny...

[objective]

I have to reiterate my previous point, which fits in with what whottt has been posting.

Avery is the one Spur whose jersey will be hanging up who is not a San Antonian.

Because he never adopted San Antonio as his home town as Gervin has, Moore has, Robinson has, Duncan has, Manu has, Bowen has, Parker has (though Eva being from south texas probably helps). He never put down roots here.

Avery's heart never left Houston. His community work was done in Houston. His home was in Houston.

So how does that help Avery's case?

the 99 team would already have 3 retired jerseys (DR, Elliott, and TD).

Never a San Antonian. Never a happy self-declared lifelong Spur.

Avery Johnson is as much a San Antonian and lifelong Spur as Mo Cheeks.

[whottt]

I understand part of the mindset of AJ fans...

They simply love the underdog, they love the idea of the impossible dream of AJ coming from nothing with no talent...to have his jersey hanging up there with icons, simply out of determination to succeed and an unwillingness to give up...


I do get that aspect of the mindset...

I get that timvp is actually an incredibly nice guy, who runs a wonderful Spursboard, and you can see how much he loves AJ and that dream...

Belive me...at the back of mind it bothers me when I rip someone I know is probably his favorite player mercilessly...with the hospitality he has shown me...it bothers me even more because I really don't hate AJ, I really and truly don't hate him, and prior to the end of his time here with this team....I had a similar view of AJ.


But what I don't get...is the seeming desire and joy that AJ fans get at throwing in and everyone from David Robinson, to the crippled Johnny Moore, to an innocent Manu, under the bus...in the desire to see that dream realized...nor do I get the absolute free pass that AJ has been given to be a jerk since leaving here....


I just wish AJ actually resembled their idealized vision of him...and I wish their methods of elevating him, were in the spirit of their idealized vision of him...



In any case, it's' just a jersey...AJ was a part of those championship teams, and he was the best PG Drob had in his prime, and it was fun watching him make a fool of Damon Stoudamire. I was pulling for him as much as anyone.

As long as AJ actually acts touched by the gesture, and like he was proud of being a Spur, instead of acting like it's something owed to him and he was the one doing the Spurs a favor...I can live with it. You don't deserve it AJ...so don't act like you do.

And I know as the coach of the Mavs he can't afford to be a nice and humble guy...I can respect that, as he long as he keeps it clean where the Spurs are concerned...if he wants to mean something to us...he has to show us that we mean something to him. This is a huge honor they are giving him. Just be deserving of it in spirit where the Spurs are concerned AJ...that's all I am asking.

And AJ fans...get freaking real.

[ChumpDumper]

I have to reiterate my previous point, which fits in with what whottt has been posting.

Avery is the one Spur whose jersey will be hanging up who is not a San Antonian.

Because he never adopted San Antonio as his home town as Gervin has, Moore has, Robinson has, Duncan has, Manu has, Bowen has, Parker has (though Eva being from south texas probably helps). He never put down roots here.

Avery's heart never left Houston. His community work was done in Houston. His home was in Houston.

So how does that help Avery's case?

the 99 team would already have 3 retired jerseys (DR, Elliott, and TD).

Never a San Antonian. Never a happy self-declared lifelong Spur.

Avery Johnson is as much a San Antonian and lifelong Spur as Mo Cheeks.

James Silas lives in Austin. Just sayin'.

[whottt]

James Silas lives in Austin. Just sayin'.

No pro team in Austin. Austin is considered a Spurstown based on close geographical location to SA and NBDL affiliation.

[ShoogarBear]

Makin up as I go along.

[timvp]

AJ was such an outstanding leader that the guy responsible for the Spurs les coudn't stand him and would likely be playing for the Magic if Avery had remained on the Spurs when he was a free agent.

Um, yeah, you might want to check your dates. AJ was on the Spurs when Duncan re-signed.

[Holt's Cat]

Scrubs with retired jerseys usually played their entire careers with those teams...at the very least 80%.

AJ played 19 years and about half that time was spent with other teams...including some of our most hated rivals.

No Mr. Spur case for AJ.

I can think of no Spurs player who better exemplified what the Spurs were about at the start of the Popovich coaching era than AJ. Absurd assertion on your part.

No symapthy case for AJ.

He didn't need anyone's sympathy.

You, OTOH...

No talent case for AJ.

Only the all-time NCAA assists leader who had an 8+ apg average across multiple seasons.

[sandman]

Only the all-time NCAA assists leader who had an 8+ apg average across multiple seasons.

AJ averaged over 8 assists per game twice in his career. Twice.

And his NCAA assist record is for the highest average in a season at 13.3 during his senior year, not for total assists. In the SWAC which has such powerhouses as Prairie View A&M, Arkansas-Pine Bluff and Alabama A&M.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Bruce Bowen's jersey # will be retired by the Spurs one day and his Spurs' career stats put him on par with Aaron McKie. Oh wait, McKie had better stats.

TD v AJ is one of the greatest forum urban legends.

Yes whottt, DRob couldn't carry a team on his own to a le. He's not the only NBA superstar and Top 50 player of all time in that category, so relax and stop clutching your stuffed Coyote doll.

Bowen has been on the NBA All Defensive team for about the past 7 years. Hes widely considered one of the if not the best perimeter defenders in the NBA.

If it wasnt for that then youd would be right Bowen wouldnt deserve to get his numberr retired. its called consistent excellence. Bowen has been one of the best defenders for the better part of a decade. That was him shutting down Vince Carter and Marion and James and Anthony and anyone else they ever put in front of him year after year and chamionship after championship.

Whats Johnson done? 8 APG a couple of times and attack a naked teammate? Not turn the ball over too much?

Its not even close.

maybe if they came up with an All NBA no accountability asshole list he would be at the top there.

[timvp]

Myth#1 being shoveled around frequently to boost AJ's case:

That AJ was a better PG than Moore. He wasn't. He was not a better PG than Johnny Moore. He also didn't have his career end in a tragic fashion(medically).

Johnny Moore is more deserving of jersey retirement than AJ. He was a more of a career Spur, he was a better PG, he is more sympathetic figure.

I've watch a lot of games recently in which Moore played for the Spurs. He was pretty good player. However, I do understand why a lot of old school Spurs fans never really defend his legacy. He wasn't as good as his stats look today.

I'd say the 1984-85 season was Moore's best season. He averaged 12.8 points and 10.0 assists. That looks pretty damn good ... until you look into it further.

The '86 team had Moore, Gervin, Gilmore, Mitc , Banks and Robertson. All were healthy virtually the entire season, yet the team finished 41-41. And if you watched games of that year (Moore's career year), Moore was at best the fourth best player on the team. No one can watch games from that year and say Moore was a better player than Mitc . No way.

And look at his numbers again: 12.8 points and 10.0 assists. That's nice until you realize that the team that year averaged 115 points per game.

Compare that to the slow down era AJ played in (in '99, the Spurs averaged 92 points per game, for example). Even with much fewer possessions per game, AJ's career year of 13.1 points and 9.6 assists per game matches up rather well. And that's not even adjusting AJ's numbers to match the possessions that Moore played. If you did that, AJ's numbers would blow Moore's numbers away.

Now, even if you want to call the stats a draw, which is being nice to Moore, you can't even begin to compare the team's performance. Moore had some very good teammates, yet never did much in his most productive years. AJ, on the other hand, helped bring in the franchise's first championship.

I feel bad that Moore's career was cut short but there's no way to conclusively say Moore was the better player. You certainly can't say that Moore meant more to the Spurs in a historical sense.

To put it in further perspective, I'd say AJ was closer to as good as Sean Elliott than Moore was compared to Mitc . Elliott > AJ. Mitc >>> Moore.

[timvp]

Myth #2:

That giving AJ's jersey to Manu was just an ooops.
Spurs knew in advance Manu wanted that number. They knew it was his number. They knew Manu was coming, they knew he was getting that number. They knew it was AJ's number. Pop knew it was AJ's number.

False. Manu called the equipment manager and told him he wanted #6.

Myth #3

That Don Harris perfectly executes the Spurs wishes.


This is the biggest load of crap to be served up in this thread...


Someone needs to listen to the Pop show sometime...


TPark could figure out that about 90% of the questions asked by Harris are going to annoy the out of Pop as stupid pointless questions, Pop has probably mentioned not to be asked these sorts of questions 15 trillion times off air...and Harris still asks them multiple times every show.

That seriously might be the funniest thing I've ever read on the internet. Harris is Pop's lapdog. If Pop asks Harris to bark, Harris asks how loud.

The Pop Show questions are a joke. You can listen to an entire Pop show and not learn anything because the questions are so pointless. Well, that's if you can even call them questions. Harris usually just makes a statement and asks Pop for his opinion on that statement.

I can't stop laughing at the thought they you are trying to portray Harris as some sort of renegade reporter out to get Pop. Harris is probably the most CIA controlled media member in town. Actually, not probably, he is the most CIA controlled media member in town.

[timvp]

I have to reiterate my previous point, which fits in with what whottt has been posting.

Avery is the one Spur whose jersey will be hanging up who is not a San Antonian.

Because he never adopted San Antonio as his home town as Gervin has, Moore has, Robinson has, Duncan has, Manu has, Bowen has, Parker has (though Eva being from south texas probably helps). He never put down roots here.

Avery's heart never left Houston. His community work was done in Houston. His home was in Houston.

So how does that help Avery's case?

the 99 team would already have 3 retired jerseys (DR, Elliott, and TD).

Never a San Antonian. Never a happy self-declared lifelong Spur.

Avery Johnson is as much a San Antonian and lifelong Spur as Mo Cheeks.

This post has so many errors I couldn't even break it down into sections. I guess I'll just number number them...

1) AJ owned and still owns a home in San Antonio. It is true that he lives in Sugarland ... but with family in Louisiana, it makes sense. I don't think it's a crime to live outside of San Antonio's city limits.

2) AJ did a huge amount of community work in San Antonio. Outside of David Robinson, he might be next in line in terms of players working in the San Antonio community. That's kinda sad that you just tried to wash all his work away.

3) AJ owns several businesses in San Antonio. Ever been to the San Antonio airport? That sports bar with the giant picture of AJ is owned by AJ. Is that not of a enough of a connection for you?

4) AJ owns a set of houses on the East side of town in which he pays, furnishes and maintains for families who are trying to get on their feet.

5) It's premature to be claiming that Duncan, Parker, Bowen and Ginobili are puro San Antonians. Bowen lives in Miami during the offseason. It's not a lock that Duncan, Parker or Ginobili finish their career on the Spurs. And beyond that, I doubt all three are going to live in San Antonio for the rest of their lives. And besides, who cares where a player lives after they retire? Pop is on the first plane out of town once he retires as coach. Bill Russell lives in Seattle and says he hates the city of Boston. If Duncan, Parker, Bowen, Pop, Robinson or whoever say that, I won't hold that against them at all.

[ShoogarBear]

What about Spur fans who don't live in San Antonio? Are they traitors, too?

[whottt]

What about Spur fans who don't live in San Antonio? Are they traitors, too?

Only if their jersey is retired.

[whottt]

I'm gonna jab this stick under the bus. Shoogar you and Marcus go on the other side. When the cripple sticks his head out, you two stomp it into the fvcking dirt. AJ will make us

[ShoogarBear]

Only if their jersey is retired.

So if your jersey is retired, your corporal presence is forever restricted from traversing past the city limits?

Logic has forsaken thee.

[whottt]

So if your jersey is retired, your corporal presence is forever restricted from traversing past the city limits?

Logic has forsaken thee.

No...it just makes them a traitor.


Oh, and BTW...

I hate James Silas

Fixed

[timvp]

I understand part of the mindset of AJ fans...

They simply love the underdog, they love the idea of the impossible dream of AJ coming from nothing with no talent...to have his jersey hanging up there with icons, simply out of determination to succeed and an unwillingness to give up...


I do get that aspect of the mindset...

I get that timvp is actually an incredibly nice guy, who runs a wonderful Spursboard, and you can see how much he loves AJ and that dream...

Belive me...at the back of mind it bothers me when I rip someone I know is probably his favorite player mercilessly...with the hospitality he has shown me...it bothers me even more because I really don't hate AJ, I really and truly don't hate him, and prior to the end of his time here with this team....I had a similar view of AJ.

I don't really have a problem with those who rip AJ. I'm not going to lose respect for a poster because they don't like AJ.

AJ's stats weren't retired jersey worthy. AJ didn't spend his whole career on the Spurs. AJ has said stuff and done stuff that he'd no doubt like to take back.

Add those points to the fact that AJ is the head coach of the Spurs' biggest current rival and I can fully understand not liking AJ. When the Spurs are playing the Mavs and AJ is doing everything he humanly can to beat the Spurs, I don't like AJ either.

But that said, I know AJ was a vital part to that 1999 team and that 1999 team is a team I'll always have undying respect for. They opened the door for the success we see today. After all the heartbreaks in the franchise's history up until 1999, it made that championship even sweeter.

In any other cir stance, I wouldn't be for retiring AJ's number. He was pretty good and a fiery leader but that alone wasn't worth retiring his number. But the reality of the cir stance is that the first championship team happened to have a no talent point guard as its undisputed leader. It's a special case in NBA history, really. Which franchise won a championship with a leader with as little natural skill as AJ? I can't think of anyone even close.

Bottomline is I understand not liking AJ for a mul ude of reasons ... but I'm not going to forget what he meant for the Spurs in the context of those teams in the 1990's and I'm glad the Spurs have decided to honor that.

But what I don't get...is the seeming desire and joy that AJ fans get at throwing in and everyone from David Robinson, to the crippled Johnny Moore, to an innocent Manu, under the bus...in the desire to see that dream realized...nor do I get the absolute free pass that AJ has been given to be a jerk since leaving here....

I haven't thrown DRob under the bus. I don't understand why you call Moore a cripple. Yeah, he got sick but he didn't exactly end up in a wheelchair. I'm not sure how Manu entered the equation.

It's possible to argue for AJ without arguing against other players. You've thrown Sean Elliott and at times even David Robinson and Tim Duncan under the bus in your attempts to justify keeping AJ out.

I just wish AJ actually resembled their idealized vision of him...and I wish their methods of elevating him, were in the spirit of their idealized vision of him...

In any case, it's' just a jersey...AJ was a part of those championship teams, and he was the best PG Drob had in his prime, and it was fun watching him make a fool of Damon Stoudamire. I was pulling for him as much as anyone.

As long as AJ actually acts touched by the gesture, and like he was proud of being a Spur, instead of acting like it's something owed to him and he was the one doing the Spurs a favor...I can live with it. You don't deserve it AJ...so don't act like you do.

And I know as the coach of the Mavs he can't afford to be a nice and humble guy...I can respect that, as he long as he keeps it clean where the Spurs are concerned...if he wants to mean something to us...he has to show us that we mean something to him. This is a huge honor they are giving him. Just be deserving of it in spirit where the Spurs are concerned AJ...that's all I am asking.

And AJ fans...get freaking real.

Earlier this summer, I know you read those same articles I did that had quotes from AJ. AJ seemed thrilled that the Spurs won the championship. You also noticed it and pointed it out.

I don't have any doubts that AJ appreciated his time in San Antonio. The players, the fans, the city ... all of that. He wanted to coach and there wasn't going to be an opening in SA for a while. I don't have a problem with him living out his dream. Of course I don't like him when the Mavs play the Spurs ... but it doesn't make me forget what AJ meant to the first championship team.

[Indazone]

man..can the Spurs front office take back a Jersey Retiring?

[Ignignokt]

Aj sucks supreme balls. Every time i see parker do a ballsy play, i'm glad Timvp is not the coach and Aj the pg for the spurs.



But, how bout we retire Will perdue's jersey.<sarcasm>