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  1. #676
    wrong about pizzagate TSA's Avatar
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    No links and you didn't say what the difference is.

    Collusion is interference. How could it not be? Unless you're claiming they were suspected of colluding over something other than the election.
    I'm still waiting on the link I requested from you first...get to it.

  2. #677
    wrong about pizzagate TSA's Avatar
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    Broke protocol? I don't think that's the condition you laid out, so don't use that goalpost.
    I don't remember the exact wording of the hypothetical we were discussing but you agreed with me so does that mean you are also calling for Rosenstein to be fired yes or no?

    It's not going to go the way you want it to.
    You repeatedly saying this isn't going to stop it from happening. The OIG investigation is already bearing fruit, and none of it has been helping your case.

  3. #678
    wrong about pizzagate TSA's Avatar
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    2. In a FISA warrant on a US citizen, you NEVER rely on information that can’t be verified. If it can’t be verified, its taken out of the application. Agents fight to keep stuff in, even when thinly sourced, but the lawyers at FBI and DOJ are constantly removing stuff that they think isn’t adequately sourced. The fact that Steele was a former MI6 agent is nice, but its not a subs ute for being able to verify the sources that gave Steele the information. Doing a FISA on a US Citizen, based on the premise that he’s engaged in espionage, is a HUGE step, and its not done on thin sourcing. The fact that Steele was retired, and working for pay — as opposed to being active and working only on behalf of his government — works against Steele’s credibility. He’s being paid to produce shaded information, not necessarily “truthful” information — which would be the presumption if he was still an active MI6 agent. So it normally would have been required for him to identify his sources — not keep them confidential. If he was an active MI6 agent, then you would respect his need to keep his sources confidential for future work. But he’s not acting on behalf of the British government, so that deference no longer applies. His information would not be accepted simply on his say-so. He’s selling his services, and wants to get paid, so he has a motivation to provide what his patron is looking for.

    3. The Grassley memo says that the FISA renewal in January 2017 states the FBI disclosed that Steele was terminated as a Source in “October, 2016”, without specifying the date. The date exists — there is a “Source Termination” do ent in his file, and it has a date on it. If he was terminated BEFORE the FISA application was submitted on October 21, 2016, that is a massive red flag problem — the kind that gets people fired, and maybe prosecuted. If the FISA application went forward with information from Steele AFTER the date Steele was terminated as a source, that’s a violation of Bureau policy that would result in termination. The fact that the date is omitted in Grassley’s memo — as if it wasn’t in the underlying do ent Grassley or his staff read — is a noteworthy omission because that date was known when the January 2017 renewal disclosed the termination to the FISC, and its omission is almost certainly not accidental. This is the same kind of purposeful omission as the failure to specify that the Clinton campaign and the DNC paid for Steele’s work.

    4. Whenever a key source in a FISA Application is terminated for misconduct, you do NOT wait for the next renewal to inform the FISC of the development. Policy is to file a disclosure of the change in cir stances with the Judge who issued the warrant, and leave it to the Judge to determine whether the new information requires rescinding the warrant. Only the Judge knows whether the information from that particular Source was crucial in the Judge’s determination that the application made a sufficient showing to justify issuance of the warrant. It was shocking to see that the termination of Steele was only disclosed to the FISC at the time of the first renewal approximately 3 months after Steele was terminated.

    5. Whenever a FISA source is terminated for misconduct, that source’s information cannot be relied upon in the renewals. Normally the renewal is justified based on intelligence that is gathered during the first 90 days. Its normally not necessary to rely on the original source as justification to renew the FISA warrant UNLESS your surveillance is NOT turning up information about the target’s foreign entanglements. You only rely on the original PC if your surveillance is not providing you new PC information. But you would NEVER be allowed to rely on a terminated source’s information to continue PC when the surveillance is not providing sufficient new PC. So it makes no sense — as stated in Grassley’s memo — for the Bureau to continue to rely on Steele’s dossier information as PC in the 90, 180, or 270 day renewals. If there is new PC generated by the surveillance, then there is no need to use the terminated source. If there is no new PC from the surveillance, its a violation of policy to rely on the information from the terminated source as a subs ute. The fact that the Bureau continued to present the Steele information in the renewals SUGGESTS — though is not necessarily conclusive — that there was insufficient intelligence coming out of the surveillance to provide new PC to continue the surveillance.

    6. The idea that a Yahoo News article could be cited in a FISA application as “verification” of a source’s information is “Laugh Out Loud” funny. If such a claim was made in a regular FISA application, the first line of legal review would call and ask if that was included as a joke. The story in question cites anonymous sources. So you have Steele quoting anonymous sources, and Isikoff citing anonymous sources. The idea that they cons ute verification of each other when the Bureau has no idea who they are or why they would know what they told Steele/Isikoff is simply “Through the Looking Glass” stuff. The fact that something like that survived FISA review confirms that the FISA process was corrupted. Its just beyond the pale — its that ridiculous.

    7. When it became known that the info in the September 23, 2016 Yahoo News article matched pretty much exactly the information provided by Steele to the Bureau, and Steele denied having any contact with the press on the subject of his work, that would normally have led to a decision that Steele be polygraphed to see if he was being deceptive in his denial. If he had been polygraphed and passed, that would have been disclosed as the basis for believing his denial. The fact that he wasn’t polygraphed is a big tell that the “fix” was in — they feared he would fail. The idea that an Agent would write in the application — as Grassley’s memo says — ” The FBI does not believe [Steele] directly provided this information to the press”, relying only on Steele’s denial of having done so — MI6 or not — is laughable. Again, it goes back to the gravity of seeking a FISA warrant on a US citizen.

    http://www.hughhewitt.com/carter-pag...ecial-counsel/

  4. #679
    Believe. Pavlov's Avatar
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    I'm still waiting on the link I requested from you first...get to it.
    Informal investigation of Russian interference, April 2016:

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-38589427

    http://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/poli...127231799.html

    Official FBI investigation into Russian interference, July 2016:

    http://www.latimes.com/politics/wash...htmlstory.html

    Now I'm waiting on your explanation how collusion isn't interference and the links for the dates you have failed to provide.

  5. #680
    wrong about pizzagate TSA's Avatar
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    and that is also expressly forbidden by le I

    (B)there is no substantial likelihood that the surveillance will acquire the contents of any communication to which a United States person is a party;

    https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/50/1802
    We already know from the FISC audit that non-compliance rates on certain queries were over 85% what makes you think something being expressly forbidden would stop someone from doing it?

  6. #681
    Believe. Pavlov's Avatar
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    I don't remember the exact wording of the hypothetical we were discussing but you agreed with me so does that mean you are also calling for Rosenstein to be fired yes or no?
    So you don't want Rosenstein fired but will wait until the grocer tells you to want it.

    You repeatedly saying this isn't going to stop it from happening. The OIG investigation is already bearing fruit, and none of it has been helping your case.
    What is my case, TSA?

  7. #682
    wrong about pizzagate TSA's Avatar
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    Informal investigation of Russian interference, April 2016:

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-38589427

    http://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/poli...127231799.html

    Official FBI investigation into Russian interference, July 2016:

    http://www.latimes.com/politics/wash...htmlstory.html

    Now I'm waiting on your explanation how collusion isn't interference and the links for the dates you have failed to provide.
    December 2016---Obama orders report on Russian hacking

    http://www.cnn.com/2016/12/09/politi...ion/index.html

    Remember we are still talking about the Strzok/Page text that said POTUS wanted to know everything they were working on.

    The December date is important because the Strzok/Page texts were from September so we can eliminate the theory of Obama asking for updates on the reports of Russian hacking. What investigations would that leave for Obama to be inquiring about in September?

  8. #683
    Believe. Pavlov's Avatar
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    December 2016---Obama orders report on Russian hacking

    http://www.cnn.com/2016/12/09/politi...ion/index.html

    Remember we are still talking about the Strzok/Page text that said POTUS wanted to know everything they were working on.

    The December date is important because the Strzok/Page texts were from September so we can eliminate the theory of Obama asking for updates on the reports of Russian hacking. What investigations would that leave for Obama to be inquiring about in September?
    Dodge #1.

    Link?

    I think you’re confusing Russian collusion investigation and Russian election interference investigation.
    1) What's the difference?

    2) What are your dates for both, with links?
    Last edited by Pavlov; 02-08-2018 at 02:46 PM.

  9. #684
    Savvy Veteran spurraider21's Avatar
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    We already know from the FISC audit that non-compliance rates on certain queries were over 85% what makes you think something being expressly forbidden would stop someone from doing it?
    you keep moving goalposts

    you keep telling me that le I surveillance of Page allows something, and then when I point out it doesn't, you just say "well they break the rules anyway. Do you really think they do everything by the book?"

    pick a lane

    1 - Does le I allow this (the route you chose when you started pimping the le I vs le VII differences pointed out by sundance aka whole foods)

    2 - It doesn't matter what le I allows, and the differences between le I and le VII are irrelevant since they just break the rules anyway

  10. #685
    Believe. Pavlov's Avatar
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    you keep moving goalposts

    you keep telling me that le I surveillance of Page allows something, and then when I point out it doesn't, you just say "well they break the rules anyway. Do you really think they do everything by the book?"

    pick a lane

    1 - Does le I allow this (the route you chose when you started pimping the le I vs le VII differences pointed out by sundance aka whole foods)

    2 - It doesn't matter what le I allows, and the differences between le I and le VII are irrelevant since they just break the rules anyway
    Why even apply for a FISA warrant if you're just going to break the rules and law whenever you want to?

  11. #686
    wrong about pizzagate TSA's Avatar
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    So you don't want Rosenstein fired but will wait until the grocer tells you to want it.
    You and I agreed on Rosenstein, does that mean you are also calling for Rosenstein to be fired yes or no

    What is my case, TSA?
    The opposite of what you say is the way I want it to go.

  12. #687
    wrong about pizzagate TSA's Avatar
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    you keep moving goalposts

    you keep telling me that le I surveillance of Page allows something, and then when I point out it doesn't, you just say "well they break the rules anyway. Do you really think they do everything by the book?"

    pick a lane

    1 - Does le I allow this (the route you chose when you started pimping the le I vs le VII differences pointed out by sundance aka whole foods)

    2 - It doesn't matter what le I allows, and the differences between le I and le VII are irrelevant since they just break the rules anyway
    I said from the start I thought the le I on Page was to justify the 702 about queries outside contractors were caught running without oversight that were mentioned in the FISC audit. You are making this more confusing than it needs to be.

  13. #688
    wrong about pizzagate TSA's Avatar
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    Why even apply for a FISA warrant if you're just going to break the rules and law whenever you want to?
    To justify the 702 about queries the outside contractor were running without oversight. FISA warrant is retroactive.

  14. #689
    Savvy Veteran spurraider21's Avatar
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    pick a lane

    1 - Does le I allow this (the route you chose when you started pimping the le I vs le VII differences pointed out by sundance aka whole foods)

    2 - It doesn't matter what le I allows, and the differences between le I and le VII are irrelevant since they just break the rules anyway
    For reference, here's every time you've been in lane 1

    A le I FISA warrant would include surveillance of any contact of Page past and present...would that include Trump yes or no?
    honestly though I already posted the difference between le I and le VII, if you were really curious you could look it up just like I did. And thank you I guess ??? for answering directly a question posed to djohn2oo8
    “ le I” FISA surveillance of U.S. citizens is the most intrusive, exhaustive and far reaching type of search, seizure and surveillance authority, permitting the FBI to look at every scintilla of Mr. Page’s life. All communication, travel and contact can be opened and reviewed. All aspects of any of Mr. Page’s engagements are subject to being secretly monitored. This is an entirely different level of surveillance authority, the highest possible, and has nothing to do with FISA-702 search queries ( le VII) of U.S. persons."

    "The “ le I” designation as a foreign agent applied retroactively to any action taken by Mr. Page, and auto-generates an exponential list of other people he came in contact with. Each of those people, groups or organizations could now have their communication reviewed, unmasked and analyzed by the DOJ/FBI with the same surveillance authority granted upon the target, Mr. Page."

    https://theconservativetreehouse.com...ds-procedures/


    I tried looking up the US codes to confirm the above but they don't really get into the details of what type of net can be cast, at least from what I found.

    Do you have any source do ents refuting the above? I can't find any.
    You can question him all you like but it doesn't sound like you've found anything to refute his claims either. Seems like he is pretty knowledgeable when it comes to this stuff so until I see something to refute it I'm just going to roll with it.
    I don't know what his background is but he seems more knowledgeable on the subject than you. The reaches and uses of le I surveillance are not going to be found in US code as you found out for yourself.
    Trump wouldn't need to be the target of the surveillance to have his communications monitored.
    How many times must I answer no? Are you too stupid to realize Trump does not need to be directly wiretapped to still be under surveillance?

    When you were chatting with your cousin were you also being listened to?
    Targeting person A for surveillance knowing you will also get person B is not the same as incidental collection
    and here's the times you were in lane 2 (just limited to your posts directed at me in this specific convo)

    How many times must I answer no? Are you too stupid to realize Trump does not need to be directly wiretapped to still be under surveillance?

    When you were chatting with your cousin were you also being listened to?
    https://www.newamerica.org/oti/blog/...ions-compared/

    Explain to me how a court was convinced Carter Page was an agent of a foreign power AND that the facility or place to be surveilled is about to be used by the target. Also, was the court aware Carter Page previously worked undercover for the FBI?
    Do you believe only Carter Page’s communications were picked up when he was being directly surveilled?

    We aren’t going to find the answer to this in the US code and would need someone in law enforcement to explain the reaches and uses of le I surveillance.
    Pavlov spurraider21

    During the campaign and post election do you think the FBI/DOJ did all of this surveillance by the books yes or no?
    your Reince Preibus analogy doesn't work...I simply asked if you THINK everything was done by the books. There is plenty of information for you to form an opinion, don't be such a coward.

    During the campaign and post election do you think the FBI/DOJ did all of this surveillance by the books yes or no?
    You didn't answer the question either coward.

    During the campaign and post election do you think the FBI/DOJ did all of this surveillance by the books yes or no?
    No. See how easy that was.

    Your turn. During the campaign and post election do you think the FBI/DOJ did all of this surveillance by the books yes or no?
    Nothing we do here in this sub forum gets us any closer to real answers

    It's a ing message board dude, people give their opinions here all the time yet the minute I ask for yours you curl up in the fetal position. I promise I'm not going to fire a bunch of follow up questions challenging your opinion I was just simply curious as to where you stood.

    So, during the campaign and post election do you think the FBI/DOJ did all of this surveillance by the books yes or no?
    I didn't specify Trump and clearly said all of this surveillance. You are almost there try again.

    During the campaign and post election do you think the FBI/DOJ did all of this surveillance by the books yes or no?
    We already know from the FISC audit that non-compliance rates on certain queries were over 85% what makes you think something being expressly forbidden would stop someone from doing it?

  15. #690
    wrong about pizzagate TSA's Avatar
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  16. #691
    Savvy Veteran spurraider21's Avatar
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    I said from the start I thought the le I on Page was to justify the 702 about queries outside contractors were caught running without oversight that were mentioned in the FISC audit. You are making this more confusing than it needs to be.
    you also said le I allowed them to surveil not only the named target (Carter Page), but also surveil any contact of his past or present (including Trump) because sundance said so (going beyond merely getting "swept up" though you've been understandably vague about what cons utes this additional "surveillance")

    i can see why you'd want to walk back that claim. in fact i'd respect you more if you did

  17. #692
    Believe. Pavlov's Avatar
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    To justify the 702 about queries the outside contractor were running without oversight. FISA warrant is retroactive.
    But you're saying they then just violated the laws again in an attempt to justify the earlier transgressions.

  18. #693
    wrong about pizzagate TSA's Avatar
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    But you're saying they then just violated the laws again in an attempt to justify the earlier transgressions.
    Correct. Amazing to think what they were attempting operating under the thought of Hillary winning the Presidency.

  19. #694
    Believe. Pavlov's Avatar
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    Correct. Amazing to think what they were attempting operating under the thought of Hillary winning the Presidency.
    Amazing to think one can seriously base all his political and legal thought on the blog of a former supermarket manager.

    Also:
    Link?

    I think you’re confusing Russian collusion investigation and Russian election interference investigation.
    1) What's the difference?

    2) What are your dates for both, with links?

  20. #695
    non-essential Chris's Avatar
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    "The activities of McCabe and others, Bruce Ohr and others, were designed to SUBVERT the Cons ution and a National Election. The most SERIOUS OFFENSE under our Cons ution."



  21. #696
    non-essential Chris's Avatar
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  22. #697
    Savvy Veteran spurraider21's Avatar
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    surprised its a fountain and not a swamp

    garrison off his game

  23. #698
    non-essential Chris's Avatar
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    TSA








    In the video below, Lee Stranahan explains that Carter Page worked as an FBI UCE (undercover employee) for 3 years, spying on Russians before they lied to the FISA court saying they needed to spy on him in case he was a Russian spy.


  24. #699
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    TSA








    In the video below, Lee Stranahan explains that Carter Page worked as an FBI UCE (undercover employee) for 3 years, spying on Russians before they lied to the FISA court saying they needed to spy on him in case he was a Russian spy.



    Chris, who does Lee Stranahan work for?

  25. #700
    Savvy Veteran spurraider21's Avatar
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    Chris, who does Lee Stranahan work for?

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