Duncan>Hakeem.

[Ignignokt]

Dude, Duncan is considered up there with Tiger, Tom Brady, That tennis player whatever his name is, as one of the most dominating athletes of this millenium.


The league is flooded with athletes moreso than in hakeems era. We may not have nigerians and africans at center position, but we have stronger more athletic forwards and centers in this league if you count millenium shaq.

[bobbyjoe]

Pippen was still athletic and at age 35. Barkley was still a beast.
Jason kidd and Nash are all pippens age right now, and one of them just finished winning an mvp trophy not to long ago.

Also, Robinson had a nasty injury that severely limited his movement.

Only somebody who choses to ignore the facts, and is a closet Rocketsfan would admit to that.

And Lakerfans today would agree that the LakerDynasty of the millenium would have beaten the Celtics and were of that caliber.

You are embarassing yourself with every post.

Robinson had a nasty injury that severely limited his movement. That is the reason he was slowed down by age 35?

Fair enough.

Perhaps if you hadn't been 5 yrs old in 1998, you'd realize that Scottie Pippen was coming off major back surgery and a foot surgery before he went to Houston. He missed 35 games his last year in Chicago.

If you seriously think that was his prime, you're just an idiot.

Barkley was a beast? His scoring and rebounding were down about 35-40% from his prime years. His knees were shot and the guy had nearly retired several times in his last years with Phoenix.

If Barkley was a beast in 1999, then Robinson was a beast in 2003 and I can just as easily say Hakeem would have won the le paired with a Center of Robinson's caliber EVERY year.

After 1998, Scottie Pippen never averaged 15 ppg again. He was a 20-22 ppg in his prime.

[bobbyjoe]

Dude, Duncan is considered up there with Tiger, Tom Brady, That tennis player whatever his name is, as one of the most dominating athletes of this millenium.


The league is flooded with athletes moreso than in hakeems era. We may not have nigerians and africans at center position, but we have stronger more athletic forwards and centers in this league if you count millenium shaq.

You need to officially change your name to "Idiot" if you think the Centers of today's league are stronger and more athletic than the 1990's.

That's the stupidest comment ever uttered on these forums.

[bobbyjoe]

washed uo washed up

Atre we talking about the prime years?

Hakeem had about 2 years of prime. No one is talking about his previous and later years. Just those two dominant years.

Duncan is all the time on the highest NBA level.
We can say that he is in his prime all the time with his specific dominance.

What is "specific dominance"?

[Ignignokt]

You need to officially change your name to "Idiot" if you think the Centers of today's league are stronger and more athletic than the 1990's.

That's the stupidest comment ever uttered on these forums.

Shaq 01-06 > 93-98Hakeem

Robinson = Dwight Howard

Brand or Wallace > Ewing

Amare = Mutombo.

This is just on strenght and athleticism.

We still have 7ft forwards, and 6 11 guards like Novitzki, Garnett, and McGrady. Rasheed, Randolph, Oneal.

[Ignignokt]

You are embarassing yourself with every post.

Robinson had a nasty injury that severely limited his movement. That is the reason he was slowed down by age 35?

Fair enough.

Perhaps if you hadn't been 5 yrs old in 1998, you'd realize that Scottie Pippen was coming off major back surgery and a foot surgery before he went to Houston. He missed 35 games his last year in Chicago.

If you seriously think that was his prime, you're just an idiot.

Barkley was a beast? His scoring and rebounding were down about 35-40% from his prime years. His knees were shot and the guy had nearly retired several times in his last years with Phoenix.

If Barkley was a beast in 1999, then Robinson was a beast in 2003 and I can just as easily say Hakeem would have won the le paired with a Center of Robinson's caliber EVERY year.

After 1998, Scottie Pippen never averaged 15 ppg again. He was a 20-22 ppg in his prime.

Scottie played 50 games in the Lockout season, Avg 14.5 ppg, 6 ast and 6 rebounds.

Again, Duncan has hakeem's age 37 speed at age 31. Duncan does not rely on athleticism.

He'd atleast get past the first round.

, Hakeem couldn't get past the first round for years. HE showed up for one year to dominate against Robinson and his squad in the middle of a meltdown, and went toe to toe with a young shaq in his 2nd year, whose statistics were similiar. And now you're fellating him

When duncan shows up 24/7. Even with Plantar Fascitis, he can lead a team past the first round.

[bobbyjoe]

Why debate just strenght and athleticism when all that really matters is who was the better player (combination of skill, bball IQ, and athleticism).

Howard is a better pure athlete than TD but not 1/10th the basketball player. I dont see why that is relevant.

If you want to argue the league is more athletic at C than in the 1990's, Olajuwon and Robinson are undoubtedly the 2 most athletic Centers this league has ever seen.

[Ignignokt]

Why debate just strenght and athleticism when all that really matters is who was the better player (combination of skill, bball IQ, and athleticism).

Howard is a better pure athlete than TD but not 1/10th the basketball player. I dont see why that is relevant.

If you want to argue the league is more athletic at C than in the 1990's, Olajuwon and Robinson are undoubtedly the 2 most athletic Centers this league has ever seen.

Maybe some of the fastest. But you still have Howard, Garnett, j Oneal, who are similiarly fast.

[Ignignokt]

These are JO's numbers...

2002-03 24 IND NBA 77 37.2 7.9 16.4 0.1 0.3 4.8 6.6 2.6 7.7 10.3 2.0 0.9 2.3 2.3 3.6 20.8
2003-04 25 IND NBA 78 35.7 7.8 17.9 0.0 0.2 4.5 5.9 2.5 7.5 10.0 2.1 0.8 2.6 2.3 3.2 20.1
2004-05 26 IND NBA 44 34.8 8.8 19.4 0.0 0.1 6.7 8.9 1.9 6.9 8.8 1.9 0.6 2.0 3.0 3.9 24.3
2005-06 27 IND NBA 51 35.3 7.5 15.8 0.1 0.2 5.1 7.2 2.0 7.3 9.3 2.6 0.5 2.3 3.0 3.5 20.1
2006-07 28 IND NBA 69 35.6 7.2 16.5 0.0 0.1 5.0 6.5 2.2 7.4 9.6 2.4 0.7 2.6 2.9 3.4 19.4
+------------------+----+----+----+----+---+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+---+---+---+---+----+


and ZO's


1993-94 23 CHH NBA 60 33.6 7.1 14.1 0.0 0.0 7.2 9.5 3.0 7.2 10.2 1.4 0.5 3.1 3.3 3.5 21.5
1994-95 24 CHH NBA 77 38.2 7.4 14.3 0.1 0.4 6.4 8.4 2.6 7.3 9.9 1.4 0.6 2.9 3.1 3.6 21.3
1995-96 25 MIA NBA 70 38.2 8.0 15.4 0.1 0.4 7.0 10.2 3.1 7.3 10.4 2.3 1.0 2.7 3.7 3.5 23.2
1996-97 26 MIA NBA 66 35.2 7.2 13.4 0.0 0.1 5.5 8.6 2.9 7.1 9.9 1.6 0.8 2.9 3.4 4.1 19.8
1997-98 27 MIA NBA 58 33.4 6.9 12.6 0.0 0.0 5.3 8.0 3.3 6.3 9.6 0.9 0.7 2.2 3.1 3.6 19.2
1998-99 28 MIA NBA 46 38.1 7.0 13.8 0.0 0.0 6.0 9.2 3.6 7.4 11.0 1.6 0.7 3.9 3.0 3.5 20.1
1999-00 29 MIA NBA 79 34.8 8.3 15.0 0.0 0.1 5.2 7.4 2.7 6.8 9.5 1.6 0.5 3.7 2.7 3.9 21.7


not much of a difference there.

[bobbyjoe]

Scottie played 50 games in the Lockout season, Avg 14.5 ppg, 6 ast and 6 rebounds.

Again, Duncan has hakeem's age 37 speed at age 31. Duncan does not rely on athleticism.

He'd atleast get past the first round.

, Hakeem couldn't get past the first round for years. HE showed up for one year to dominate against Robinson and his squad in the middle of a meltdown, and went toe to toe with a young shaq in his 2nd year, whose statistics were similiar. And now you're fellating him

When duncan shows up 24/7. Even with Plantar Fascitis, he can lead a team past the first round.

You need to get your facts straight. Hakeem had a lot of injuries, miles, knee injuries, and heart irregularities by the time he was 37.

If you think Duncan will be as effective at age 37 as he is now, you are absolutely on crack. Even if his game relies less on athleticism, the wear and tear of 15-18 yrs in the NBA gets to all 7 footers and they slow down. Look at Shaq of today. Look at DRob at age 35.

Hakeem didnt show up "for one year". He torched every Center he faced in the playoff, Shaq included. He dominated his peers in the playoffs to a degree that Duncan has never done. Duncan struggled in the playoffs against the stud bigmen he faced in Shaq and Malone, even when Malone was freakin 40 yrs old, going 2-4 in those playoff series. Those are facts.

It was Hakeem who lost 4/5th of his starting lineup after the 1986 season. This is a situation Duncan never faced. Duncan came into the right situation alongside DRob and since then has been complemented by more talent than Olajuwon had alongside him the majority of his career.

You got me on Scottie's stats. Those are so awesome! I mean a guy who scored 14 ppg, WOW!

[Ignignokt]

Garnett's

2000-01 24 MIN NBA 81 39.5 8.7 18.2 0.2 0.8 4.4 5.8 2.7 8.7 11.4 5.0 1.4 1.8 2.8 2.5 22.0
2001-02 25 MIN NBA 81 39.2 8.1 17.3 0.5 1.4 4.4 5.5 3.0 9.1 12.1 5.2 1.2 1.6 2.8 2.3 21.2
2002-03 26 MIN NBA 82 40.5 9.1 18.1 0.2 0.9 4.6 6.1 3.0 10.5 13.4 6.0 1.4 1.6 2.8 2.4 23.0
2003-04 27 MIN NBA 82 39.4 9.8 19.6 0.1 0.5 4.5 5.7 3.0 10.9 13.9 5.0 1.5 2.2 2.6 2.5 24.2
2004-05 28 MIN NBA 82 38.1 8.3 16.6 0.1 0.3 5.4 6.7 3.0 10.5 13.5 5.7 1.5 1.4 2.7 2.5 22.2
2005-06 29 MIN NBA 76 38.9 8.2 15.7 0.1 0.4 5.2 6.4 2.8 9.9 12.7 4.1 1.4 1.4 2.4 2.7 21.8

Ewings.


1991-92 29 NYK NBA 82 3150 10.1 19.4 0.0 0.1 4.8 6.5 2.9 8.8 11.7 2.0 1.1 3.1 2.7 3.5 25.0
1992-93 30 NYK NBA 81 3003 10.4 20.6 0.0 0.1 5.3 7.4 2.5 10.5 13.1 2.0 1.0 2.1 3.5 3.8 26.1
1993-94 31 NYK NBA 79 2972 10.0 20.2 0.1 0.2 6.0 7.8 2.9 9.0 11.9 2.4 1.2 2.9 3.5 3.7 26.1
1994-95 32 NYK NBA 79 2920 10.0 19.9 0.1 0.3 5.8 7.7 2.2 9.7 11.9 2.9 0.9 2.2 3.5 3.7 25.8
1995-96 33 NYK NBA 76 2783 9.7 20.9 0.1 0.4 5.0 6.6 2.3 9.3 11.6 2.3 1.0 2.6 3.2 3.6 24.6


not to domineering if we're comparing post players.

[mavs>spurs2]

Duncan wouldnt have gotten spanked by SHawn KEmp, that's for sho!

Duncan doesn't have the strength or athleticism to match up with Kemp. If Kemp and Duncan went head to head, it would be like the 2005 suns-spurs series where Amare scored like 37 ppg and won the individual matchup, but lost the series. Duncan>Kemp in terms of team ball, not individual talent. Not sure why you took this opportunity to take a shot at Kemp.

[Ignignokt]

You need to get your facts straight. Hakeem had a lot of injuries, miles, knee injuries, and heart irregularities by the time he was 37.

If you think Duncan will be as effective at age 37 as he is now, you are absolutely on crack. Even if his game relies less on athleticism, the wear and tear of 15-18 yrs in the NBA gets to all 7 footers and they slow down. Look at Shaq of today. Look at DRob at age 35.

Hakeem didnt show up "for one year". He torched every Center he faced in the playoff, Shaq included. He dominated his peers in the playoffs to a degree that Duncan has never done. Duncan struggled in the playoffs against the stud bigmen he faced in Shaq and Malone, even when Malone was freakin 40 yrs old, going 2-4 in those playoff series. Those are facts.

It was Hakeem who lost 4/5th of his starting lineup after the 1986 season. This is a situation Duncan never faced. Duncan came into the right situation alongside DRob and since then has been complemented by more talent than Olajuwon had alongside him the majority of his career.

You got me on Scottie's stats. Those are so awesome! I mean a guy who scored 14 ppg, WOW!

14ppg, 6 ast, 6 rebs.

That's more than Robinson ever had help with. ROcketfan.

[bobbyjoe]

These are JO's numbers...

2002-03 24 IND NBA 77 37.2 7.9 16.4 0.1 0.3 4.8 6.6 2.6 7.7 10.3 2.0 0.9 2.3 2.3 3.6 20.8
2003-04 25 IND NBA 78 35.7 7.8 17.9 0.0 0.2 4.5 5.9 2.5 7.5 10.0 2.1 0.8 2.6 2.3 3.2 20.1
2004-05 26 IND NBA 44 34.8 8.8 19.4 0.0 0.1 6.7 8.9 1.9 6.9 8.8 1.9 0.6 2.0 3.0 3.9 24.3
2005-06 27 IND NBA 51 35.3 7.5 15.8 0.1 0.2 5.1 7.2 2.0 7.3 9.3 2.6 0.5 2.3 3.0 3.5 20.1
2006-07 28 IND NBA 69 35.6 7.2 16.5 0.0 0.1 5.0 6.5 2.2 7.4 9.6 2.4 0.7 2.6 2.9 3.4 19.4
+------------------+----+----+----+----+---+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+---+---+---+---+----+


and ZO's


1993-94 23 CHH NBA 60 33.6 7.1 14.1 0.0 0.0 7.2 9.5 3.0 7.2 10.2 1.4 0.5 3.1 3.3 3.5 21.5
1994-95 24 CHH NBA 77 38.2 7.4 14.3 0.1 0.4 6.4 8.4 2.6 7.3 9.9 1.4 0.6 2.9 3.1 3.6 21.3
1995-96 25 MIA NBA 70 38.2 8.0 15.4 0.1 0.4 7.0 10.2 3.1 7.3 10.4 2.3 1.0 2.7 3.7 3.5 23.2
1996-97 26 MIA NBA 66 35.2 7.2 13.4 0.0 0.1 5.5 8.6 2.9 7.1 9.9 1.6 0.8 2.9 3.4 4.1 19.8
1997-98 27 MIA NBA 58 33.4 6.9 12.6 0.0 0.0 5.3 8.0 3.3 6.3 9.6 0.9 0.7 2.2 3.1 3.6 19.2
1998-99 28 MIA NBA 46 38.1 7.0 13.8 0.0 0.0 6.0 9.2 3.6 7.4 11.0 1.6 0.7 3.9 3.0 3.5 20.1
1999-00 29 MIA NBA 79 34.8 8.3 15.0 0.0 0.1 5.2 7.4 2.7 6.8 9.5 1.6 0.5 3.7 2.7 3.9 21.7


not much of a difference there.

Please tell me that you dont consider Jermaine O'Neal on the same level as Alonzo Mourning, regardless of what the stats say.

And the obvious answer here is that Alonzo was a terrific defensive player and JO isn't.

JO is a jump shooting forward masquerading as a Center. He's a soft overrated player.

The forwards/Centers of today's NBA are mainly soft and 20 foot jumpshooters. The only exceptions are Duncan, Shaq, and Yao really. You dont impact a game as much that way as you do dominating in the post.

I could point out that KG's stats are on par with Duncan's, but it's pretty obvious Duncan is way better. Ditto for JO vs. Alonzo.

[bobbyjoe]

Garnett's

2000-01 24 MIN NBA 81 39.5 8.7 18.2 0.2 0.8 4.4 5.8 2.7 8.7 11.4 5.0 1.4 1.8 2.8 2.5 22.0
2001-02 25 MIN NBA 81 39.2 8.1 17.3 0.5 1.4 4.4 5.5 3.0 9.1 12.1 5.2 1.2 1.6 2.8 2.3 21.2
2002-03 26 MIN NBA 82 40.5 9.1 18.1 0.2 0.9 4.6 6.1 3.0 10.5 13.4 6.0 1.4 1.6 2.8 2.4 23.0
2003-04 27 MIN NBA 82 39.4 9.8 19.6 0.1 0.5 4.5 5.7 3.0 10.9 13.9 5.0 1.5 2.2 2.6 2.5 24.2
2004-05 28 MIN NBA 82 38.1 8.3 16.6 0.1 0.3 5.4 6.7 3.0 10.5 13.5 5.7 1.5 1.4 2.7 2.5 22.2
2005-06 29 MIN NBA 76 38.9 8.2 15.7 0.1 0.4 5.2 6.4 2.8 9.9 12.7 4.1 1.4 1.4 2.4 2.7 21.8

Ewings.


1991-92 29 NYK NBA 82 3150 10.1 19.4 0.0 0.1 4.8 6.5 2.9 8.8 11.7 2.0 1.1 3.1 2.7 3.5 25.0
1992-93 30 NYK NBA 81 3003 10.4 20.6 0.0 0.1 5.3 7.4 2.5 10.5 13.1 2.0 1.0 2.1 3.5 3.8 26.1
1993-94 31 NYK NBA 79 2972 10.0 20.2 0.1 0.2 6.0 7.8 2.9 9.0 11.9 2.4 1.2 2.9 3.5 3.7 26.1
1994-95 32 NYK NBA 79 2920 10.0 19.9 0.1 0.3 5.8 7.7 2.2 9.7 11.9 2.9 0.9 2.2 3.5 3.7 25.8
1995-96 33 NYK NBA 76 2783 9.7 20.9 0.1 0.4 5.0 6.6 2.3 9.3 11.6 2.3 1.0 2.6 3.2 3.6 24.6


not to domineering if we're comparing post players.

You could just as easily subs ute "Tim Duncan" for "Patrick Ewing" here.

[Ignignokt]

Duncan doesn't have the strength or athleticism to match up with Kemp. If Kemp and Duncan went head to head, it would be like the 2005 suns-spurs series where Amare scored like 37 ppg and won the individual matchup, but lost the series. Duncan>Kemp in terms of team ball, not individual talent. Not sure why you took this opportunity to take a shot at Kemp.

That same year, duncan was playing on two bad ankles. Kemp wouldn't have stopped duncan.

Maybe you mean the athleticism is all kemp, but talent <<<<<<<<Duncan, who has better footwork and can play better in a halfcourt offense double teamed.

[Ignignokt]

You could just as easily subs ute "Tim Duncan" for "Patrick Ewing" here.

You could, and even then DUncan is way more clutch.

Duncan and Hakeems carreer stats are similiar when we checked them out earlier, so I guess Duncan negates Hakeem.

[mavs>spurs2]

Ignignokt is purposely putting out misleading information. You can't compare the numbers of 2 players from different eras.

Mourning and J Oneal might put up similar numbers, but Mourning did it in a tougher era
prime Mourning>>J Oneal

[bobbyjoe]

14ppg, 6 ast, 6 rebs.

That's more than Robinson ever had help with. ROcketfan.

1) No, it's not. Sean Elliott consistently put up better #'s than that. Elliott in his prime was much better than Pippen post 1998

2) Most importantly, you are changing the subject. Your contention was that Pippen was in his prime at age 34 post back surgery and foot surgery in Houston. 14,6, and 6 is a solid line, no doubt, but it's clearly and vastly inferior to Scottie's production in his true prime. All you've proved with those stats is that Pippen was clearly NOT in his prime as you contended...

[mavs>spurs2]

You could, and even then DUncan is way more clutch.

Duncan and Hakeems carreer stats are similiar when we checked them out earlier, so I guess Duncan negates Hakeem.

Dont look at career averages, once again you are trying to mislead people.

Hakeem played several years too long and it made his numbers do a nose dive.

Take Hakeems prime 10-12 years and compare them with Duncans career numbers. Hakeem has better ppg, rpg, steals, blocks, fg%, ft%, every stat except Tim has about a 1 assist advantage in assists.

[Ignignokt]

1) No, it's not. Sean Elliott consistently put up better #'s than that. Elliott in his prime was much better than Pippen post 1998

2) Most importantly, you are changing the subject. Your contention was that Pippen was in his prime at age 34 post back surgery and foot surgery in Houston. 14,6, and 6 is a solid line, no doubt, but it's clearly and vastly inferior to Scottie's production in his true prime. All you've proved with those stats is that Pippen was clearly NOT in his prime as you contended...

pippen could have still put up 20ppg if he were alone, but he had to share the ball with Hakeem and Barks crying.

No Scottie was not the athlete he was. Still, an amazing scorer.

[mavs>spurs2]

That same year, duncan was playing on two bad ankles. Kemp wouldn't have stopped duncan.

Maybe you mean the athleticism is all kemp, but talent <<<<<<<<Duncan, who has better footwork and can play better in a halfcourt offense double teamed.

What are you not understanding. They wouldn't be able to stop eachother, both getting theirs and cancelling eachother out. Although there's always the possibility of Kemp going off like Amare did against the spurs in 05 because they are very similar players and extreme athleticism gives Tim problems.

[Ignignokt]

Dont look at career averages, once again you are trying to mislead people.

Hakeem played several years too long and it made his numbers do a nose dive.

Take Hakeems prime 10-12 years and compare them with Duncans career numbers. Hakeem has better ppg, rpg, steals, blocks, fg%, ft%, every stat except Tim has about a 1 assist advantage in assists.

Ofcourse Hakeem logged in more minutes than tim. so we should go on a per min basis.

Even moreso, Duncan has accomplished way more than, hakeem ever did in his earlier years. You still had Zo scoring 20ppg, in 98. You still had a defensive monster in Robinson, and you had shaq, and Malone in the league, Mutombo.

Barkley and Akeem were waste by then. So DUncan making all defensive team in his rookie year is bad ass. No matter if they hadn't wore short shorts, Tony Danza was on Tv, or fros were cool, and people weren't buying buicks. THe whole fallacy of the olden golden days rears its ugly head, and is hardly based on facts.

[Ignignokt]

What are you not understanding. They wouldn't be able to stop eachother, both getting theirs and cancelling eachother out. Although there's always the possibility of Kemp going off like Amare did against the spurs in 05 because they are very similar players and extreme athleticism gives Tim problems.

Didn't happen this year. Amare is still extremely athletic. Were was Amare then?

[bobbyjoe]

Duncan doesn't have the strength or athleticism to match up with Kemp. If Kemp and Duncan went head to head, it would be like the 2005 suns-spurs series where Amare scored like 37 ppg and won the individual matchup, but lost the series. Duncan>Kemp in terms of team ball, not individual talent. Not sure why you took this opportunity to take a shot at Kemp.

Good points Mavs>Spurs. Kemp was pretty much a more explosive version of Amare. He had a bigger frame and even better hops than Amare.

The Spurs were able to win with Duncan clearly losing the individual matchup with Amare in 2005 because of the strength of the team surrounding Duncan. That series, Bowen completely shut down Marion and Parker actually neutralized Nash by matching his offensive output and torching Nash off the dribble. Manu was also the Spurs closer in the clutch that series.

That series showed that while Duncan was great, he obviously had one uva supporting cast for his team to still be able to win with him clearly being outplayed by Amare.

I suspect the Shawn Kemp matchup would have unfolded similarly. Duncan is of course better than Kemp and more valuable but he wouldnt be able to slow Kemp down due to how much more athletic Shawn was.

I dont understand why some of these Spurs fan lump all the praise on Duncan when guys like Parker, Manu, and Bowen are so vital. You are talking basically the quickest PG in the NBA and also the best finishing PG, the most clutch shooting guard not named Kobe Bryant, and the league's best wing defender. That's a uva cast.

I also find it odd the guy is a Sonics fan and bashing Kemp? Those Sonics teams were pretty darn good when not choking in the first round. They won 64 games in 1996 and took the 72 win Bulls team to 6 games. When has Duncan beaten a 64 win team in the playoffs?