The Irregular Trebuchet of Stephon Castle

[Ice009]

Why? They were clearly an up and coming team, and we were a down and tanking team. Shai had just put up a 24/6/5 line, and they drafted Jalen Williams and Chet Holmgren. Their bag of picks was also far superior to ours at that point.

I just thought he went there when they have more wins, when they showed some of that upswing in the win column, but since I don't follow teams outside of the Spurs like I used to years ago, didn't know. I did know they were looking a lot better than the Spurs when he left, though, due to their draft picks and talent they were amassing.

Regarding Chip Engelland's departure, money may have played a bigger role than the team's plight at the moment.

Pounding the Rock said a few years ago:



https://www.poundingtherock.com/2022...to-the-unknown

Air Alamo seems to agree:



https://airalamo.com/posts/underrate...ding-into-2024

While we might like better sources, these are the sources we have, such that they are. (Unsurprisingly, the New York Times never weighed in.)

Interesting. If any of this is true, that sucks if he wanted to stay that badly, and they ended up pushing him out by being as the article said "frugal." I'm also not sure why the Spurs wouldn't value him more highly as he is a darn good shooting coach.

im also not sure how much a shooting coach is really concerned with the team's W/L record.

they want to be paid for their work and probably like having players receptive to their coaching

either way, nothing substantiates chip leaving because he wanted to avoid a rebuild or anything like that. weird to state it so confidently with the "end of story" as well

This is what I thought at the time. I thought there must be some other reason as he seemed happy enough prior to leaving.

[exstatic]

im also not sure how much a shooting coach is really concerned with the team's W/L record.

they want to be paid for their work and probably like having players receptive to their coaching

either way, nothing substantiates chip leaving because he wanted to avoid a rebuild or anything like that. weird to state it so confidently with the "end of story" as well

He came on board in the wake of the 2005 le, and left when we traded an All Star in consecutive summers, stripping the roster to tank. I think he cares. .

[RC_Drunkford]

OKC made him an assistant coach, not solely the shooting coach.

[spurraider21]

OKC made him an assistant coach, not solely the shooting coach.

i appreciate your input but unfortunately ex said "end of story"

[Pauleta14]

Wow I hope it's not just the money considering Pop gave himself a raise a cple seasons later...

[DAF86]

Maybe he just wanted a change of scenary after 17 years.
And obviously they probably paid more.
No need to overthink it.

Castle's shot looks fundamentally solid, I'm not worried about it in the long run.
It will take a couple of years, but he should get there.
Dejounte was shooting floaters from 3pt line in his rookie year and look how good his shot became.

Is that a good thing, though?

Kawhi came in shooting it like throw ins in soccer, so it was easy to spot the problem and therefore the fix.

When a guy, that has a fundamentally sound shooting motion, is a bad shooter, how do you find the answer to the problem?

[DAF86]

Why? They were clearly an up and coming team, and we were a down and tanking team. Shai had just put up a 24/6/5 line, and they drafted Jalen Williams and Chet Holmgren. Their bag of picks was also far superior to ours at that point.

Why would a shooting coach care about rebuilding or not rebuilding? Stop trying to put excuses, Chip didn't go away because of that. The most likely scenario is money, or he got into bad terms with someone within the Spurs organization.

[spurraider21]

Is that a good thing, though?

Kawhi came in shooting it like throw ins in soccer, so it was easy to spot the problem and therefore the fix.

When a guy, that has a fundamentally sound shooting motion, is a bad shooter, how do you find the answer to the problem?

its a yes and no

obviously if a guy has a cartoonishly bad form its easy to spot a huge issue that can be fixed. but that also requires a LOT of muscle memory rework and can be a challenge. rebuilding your shot from the ground up is very hard because there are a lot of moving parts to a jump shot

if somebody has a solid base to work with and you just need to trim around the edges it can be a more painless process.

[SpursBills]

He's looking great and carrying over what he showed in preseason - I previously thought that his offensive ceiling as an initiator would always be capped unless he became a free throw merchant like SGA/Butler. After the first 2 games into the season, the dude had a Butler-esque 0.600 FTr on limited sample size, so he may yet get there which would open up all-star outcomes.

I think long term the fit with Sochan may still be awkward from a shooting standpoint if neither improves dramatically, but it's been done before. The team that comes to mind first is the 2018-2019 Sixers, featuring:

1. A physically imposing center who preferred a perimeter based game offensively and could shut down the paint defensively
2. A 6'9" point forward who could switch across all positions defensively, mainly lived around the rim, and was a 60% FT shooter
3. A 6'7" do-it-all forward who was a versatile defender, drew a ton of fouls, and got in opponents' heads

I'm not saying it's exactly a 1:1 comparison, and we have nobody on this current roster with the advanced playmaking of Simmons yet unless Castle develops the way we want him to, but that core probably would have gone deep into the postseason if it had been kept together with the right pieces and Embiid/Simmons weren't so mentally soft. Add a Middleton-type to those 3, maybe use one of the Spurs' many future draft picks to draft a bigger/better defending JJ Red , and you might have something here.

[DAF86]

[couchman]

It’s hard to compare rookie years of Castle and Kawhi.

Kawhi shot 38% from 3 his rookie year.
Stephon shot 25% from 3 in preseason, so far has missed all 5 regular season attempts, and suddenly looks extremely hesitant to even shoot them.

OTOH Castle is a better passer right now than Kawhi ever has been.
He also has better handles than Kawhi did as a rookie.

Rookie Kawhi gets the edge on defense, with rebounding being a big component, but it is close.

I was strongly against drafting Castle because the shooting is just so bad and we already have Sochan and W y chucking up. However I must admit that Castle already looks better than I expected at everything else. My concern is that his shot is broken and yet there’s nothing that looks bad about it. If the break is mental that could be tough to ever fix. I really hopes he figures out at least a midrange. That could unlock all-star potential.

[spursparker9]

It’s hard to compare rookie years of Castle and Kawhi.

Kawhi shot 38% from 3 his rookie year.
Stephon shot 25% from 3 in preseason, so far has missed all 5 regular season attempts, and suddenly looks extremely hesitant to even shoot them.

OTOH Castle is a better passer right now than Kawhi ever has been.
He also has better handles than Kawhi did as a rookie.

Rookie Kawhi gets the edge on defense, with rebounding being a big component, but it is close.

I was strongly against drafting Castle because the shooting is just so bad and we already have Sochan and W y chucking up. However I must admit that Castle already looks better than I expected at everything else. My concern is that his shot is broken and yet there’s nothing that looks bad about it. If the break is mental that could be tough to ever fix. I really hopes he figures out at least a midrange. That could unlock all-star potential.

Nephew had Chip England as shooting coach.

All-Star tbh is 100% depending on having top seeds team records.

[BacktoBasics]

He's looking great and carrying over what he showed in preseason - I previously thought that his offensive ceiling as an initiator would always be capped unless he became a free throw merchant like SGA/Butler. After the first 2 games into the season, the dude had a Butler-esque 0.600 FTr on limited sample size, so he may yet get there which would open up all-star outcomes.

I think long term the fit with Sochan may still be awkward from a shooting standpoint if neither improves dramatically, but it's been done before. The team that comes to mind first is the 2018-2019 Sixers, featuring:

1. A physically imposing center who preferred a perimeter based game offensively and could shut down the paint defensively
2. A 6'9" point forward who could switch across all positions defensively, mainly lived around the rim, and was a 60% FT shooter
3. A 6'7" do-it-all forward who was a versatile defender, drew a ton of fouls, and got in opponents' heads

I'm not saying it's exactly a 1:1 comparison, and we have nobody on this current roster with the advanced playmaking of Simmons yet unless Castle develops the way we want him to, but that core probably would have gone deep into the postseason if it had been kept together with the right pieces and Embiid/Simmons weren't so mentally soft. Add a Middleton-type to those 3, maybe use one of the Spurs' many future draft picks to draft a bigger/better defending JJ Red , and you might have something here.

I don't see Sochan as being a fit problem. Every team needs a guy like Sochan. We should be able to make up shooting at other positions in a way that still keeps Sochan productive. I don't know what's going on with this new hitch he's got but its not like he was Ben Simmons last season.

[Atl Spur]

Where’s that Sochan thread? As far as fit, the kid does a little bit of everything; think Lou Dort without a three ball but post up & rebounding. Every team needs a Sochan type player.

[Raven]

Where’s that Sochan thread? As far as fit, the kid does a little bit of everything; think Lou Dort without a three ball but post up & rebounding. Every team needs a Sochan type player.

he really doesn't... he is playing pure pf.

[Atl Spur]

he really doesn't... he is playing pure pf.

Speaking skill set not actual position ( okc runs 3 guard line up )

[spurraider21]

Speaking skill set not actual position ( okc runs 3 guard line up )

he's taking over 80% of his FGAs from within 10 feet

[Atl Spur]

he's taking over 80% of his FGAs from within 10 feet

Hence post up….

[sfernald]

I hope no one was expecting that he would get the best of the prospective rookie of the year Ajay Mitc ...

[Raven]

think it is to time cut down his minutes.

[DAF86]

[DAF86]

think it is to time cut down his minutes.

These are the types of comments that make wanna punch people.

[tim_duncan_fan]

I didn't realize he hit a 3 tonight. Technically he shot 50% from 3 tonight. Gotta start somewhere. Hopefully, this starts some confidence about it.

[Ice009]

It's shocking to say, as I likely wouldn't say this about a player normally, but I am glad he hit one three pointer. I still have confidence in him.

[Raven]

These are the types of comments that make wanna punch people.

i think it is very fair, i don't see why he would ever play alongside chris paul, like why... he is not yet a good defender, he is an excellent perimeter defender, but gets bullied in the paint and on drives. He is a very good pg that needs to work on his shot, but we need shooting right now there is no doubt about that.