So now its Hakeems fault that Duncan doesn't have the physical ability and conditioning to play the minutes Hakeem did? That's all part of the game dude..
No, Duncan does login heavy minutes in the playoffs. He just doesn't need to if the scores out of reach in the Reg season. And doesn't care about his stats. His playoff stats are amazing when he logs in the min. Not tim duncan's fault he's scoring the points he's supposed to......... Doh!
Weak, where was AMare this series? Maybe Oberto shut him down, are we supposed to believe that?
Fine, if you go by per minute, Hakeem still has the edge in PPG, FG%, FT%, Steals, and Blocks. Duncan has the edge in Rebounds (12.7 to 12.4) and assists (3.4 to 2.8).
Hakeem has the edge in every single category if you look at playoff #'s instead of regular season.
This doesnt even account for the fact Hakeem's #'s came in a league which was more compe ive and stacked at Center.
Amare averaged 26.4 ppg on 47% FG shooting against the Spurs this series.
Bear in mind that in the Donaghy game, he only played 21 minutes because of foul trouble.
No one shut him down.
I will say though that the series Duncan had against the Suns this playoffs was just awesome. He was just unbelievable, even against a solid post defender like Kurt Thomas. Probably the best ball I've ever seen Duncan play.
But it's not like Amare was shut down completely when he put up 26 a game.
Wow...Bobbyjoe is wrecking shop here. I won't repeat everything you have already posted.
I just wanted to ask (again) why do folks keep touting that Duncan has been winning les without a 2nd star player when the last 5 NBA champions have only really had one star player?
07 Spurs - Duncan (beat Cavs with LeBron as the sole star)
06 Heat - Wade (beat Mavs with Dirk as the sole star)
05 Spurs - Duncan (beat starless Pistons)
04 Pistons - Starless (beat LA with Shaq and Kobe)
03 Spurs - Duncan (beat Nets with Kidd as the sole star)
Additionally, the losing teams from 99 - 02 only had 1 star (Knicks, Pacers, Sixers, Nets). I consider the 99 Spurs and the 3-peat Lakers two star teams.
It is clearly evident that you only need one superstar, surrounded by good talent, to compete for a le these days. It isn't like the past where the top teams had 2-3 HOF players. So yes, Duncan is winning without HOF help, but so are the other teams in this era not named the LA Lakers.
It would be interesting if this was put before a GM...Hakeem or Duncan....who would you take in the draft.
I would take Hakeem because of his ability to play defense too.
Either way though, you are certainly going to be happy.
DD
Authority,
You don't think Hakeem being the number one shot blocker in NBA history means anything.
MMMMMkay.
Well ofcourse I would expect a Rocket fan to pick Hakeem over TD.
Yes, I am biased that way for sure, and I don't think it is a hands down type of deal. I would be happy with either one of them....you guys want to trade TD for Scola?
Bobbyjoe was once singlehandedly manhandled by whottt that it wasn't even close (on a thread where he tried to discredit David Robinson - see a recurring theme here? Or ask yourself why else he would have 100 posts on a thread such as this one and hardly any on any of the other threads).
Anyways, on several occasions during the progression of this thread I was tempted to refute one of his many subjective claims... but... have neither the time nor the patience to deal with his belligerent argumentative style.
Having said that, he does make some very good points and will usually back them up with supporting stats... but he also fails to concede on anything... which openly exposes him as embodying the very thing he supposedly denounces - 'bias'. Oh well.
Last edited by Phenomanul; 09-24-2007 at 10:51 AM.
Gee, I said I was saying that they were #1 in makes and didn't say they were #1 in attempts, that does not mean that they are not #1 in attempts.
If a team is #1 in makes, and is only average in %, it would follow that said team is probably #1 in attempts (though not conclusive), but my point is to say that given that they were #1 in makes, would you as a team not defend their 3s?
The % is higher, but that does not mean that the Spurs are as potent on the 3 as the Rockets were, it is just not as big a part of the offense. Besides, even IF the Spurs were a more potent 3 pt shooting team than the Rockets, this STILL does not exclude the fact that Hakeem only won les with amazing 3 pt shooting teams, and that Duncan won 4 les with very different teams.
BTW, if you want to count 99 to 03 Robinson as a significant contributor, you should be talking about Barkley and Pippen with Hakeem. At that point in their careers, they were all past their primes, broken down and injured.
Last edited by ambchang; 09-24-2007 at 11:57 AM.
Why, because you agreed with him?
This is absolutely ridiculous.
In 1999, the Spurs were19/29 in 3pt % and 24/29 in makes and 25/29 in attempts.
In 2003, 11/29 in makes, 11/29 attempts, and 11/29 in %
In 2005, 12/30 in makes, 13/30 in attempts, and 8/30 in %
In 2007, 6/30 in makes, 7/30 in attempts, and 3rd in %.
Next time when you wants to mouth off on something, do your own research instead of coattailing on somebody else’s arguments.
BTW, the 3 pt % also helps shoot down some garbage arguments by bobbyjoe that shooting is getting worse. Also, go check out FT% of the league when you have time.
Last edited by ambchang; 09-24-2007 at 11:47 AM.
Gary Payton wouldn't have given Kemp the ball as well as Nash does amare. Kemp would have avg 18-21ppg.
Even still, Akeem was taller and just as fast, and an awesome shot blocker,you'd think.
One thing to consider, Duncan has won 4 les in a small market, with small resources, with his stars coming only through draft. The spurs have never managed to pull in an established superstar through trade like the Rox did with drexler.
Basically everyteam the spurs have lost, have been in the FInals. Every team.
And about bowen being a stellar defender, you wouldn't know that if you were like bobby joe and only looked at the stats. Besides the fact that bowens defense is credited to Duncan, ought to say something about duncans multidimensional defensive prowess.
Bowen, has avg stats for being a defensive monster. And if we were to take the bobbyjoe approach, Ginobilli is a better defender than bruce.
Sorry Joe, The media might be mesmerized by steals and blocks. But the real students of the game, the coaches will always pick duncan as a defensive jagguarnat. Who happened to get in the all defensive team in his rookie year with Zo and Shaq, and Drob still kicking ass.
In the end, Historians will look at wins, and contribution.
Duncan is just the obvious choice. No number of blocks, steals, and FT pct,will take that away.
You mean for every 100 3 pters shot, the Spurs make about 5 more than the Rockets between the best year of the Spurs and the worst year of the Rockets, and have essentially no difference when comparing the worst to the worst and only a difference of 1.4 3 pters , or 4.2 points comparing the best to the best? Wow, this is truly profounding and showed how much more potent the Spurs are than the Rockets.
But let us ignore the fact that the Rockets were #1 in the league in both makes and attempts both years. Where in 1994, they score an average of 1.3 points more than the 2nd best 3 pt shooting team a game, and 5.8 points more than the average team. But no team would guard the 3 pt line, and let them shoot away because they ranked a paltry 15/28 in 3pt %, which is a ranking significantly better than the 99 Spurs. The same is true for 95, only that the Rockets made even MORE 3pters, and scored on average 2.3 points more than the 2nd best 3 pt shooting team, and 7 more points than the average team.
Right.
Are we stalking about the same Kemp who averaged about 23 ppg from 94-98 with that same Payton feeding him the ball? Kemp would have destroyed Duncan ala 2005 Amare. Duncan doesn't have the athletic ability to match up with these type players
Give me a break, Drexler was past his prime before he ever got to the Rockets. It's funny how you're so quick to discredit David's time with Duncan but want to say Hakeem played next to this bonafide superstar in Drexler, when in reality Drexler was the same age Robinson was when Duncan got to the spurs. And who cares where you get your superstars, whether it's trade or draft. The thing is, Duncan has played with more stars than Hakeem ever did. Hakeem never got to play with a finals MVP while he was still in his prime.
No one ever said Duncan wasn't a great defensive player, he just isn't on Hakeems level.
Spurs had to dethrone the Kobe/Shaq Laker mini-dynasty in 2003. No other team could do that.
They wrestled and grinded out a tough 7-game NBA Finals in 2005.
They won the championship in 2007 easily, but with such world-class compe ion like Dallas and Phoenix, that's an accomplishment, isn't it?
Weren't you the same person who would go on and on about Hakeem missing the playoffs due to a crap supporting cast?
94 Rockets – Hakeem (beat Knicks with Ewing as sole star)
94 Rockets – Hakeem (beat Magic with O’Neal as sole star, maybe Hardaway).
What is the point again?
Suns had 3 stars in 05 and 07, Mavs had 3 stars in the early 00s, where did that get them?
Dont worry, Bobbyjoe has youtube videos of Akeem and real gm to back up his arguments.
I thought we beat shaq and kobe twice.
that's still 3>2 if we are to deducts parker's MVP performance.
I don't think you are getting his point and it isn't that complex. he has posted the state for it 3 or 4 times already.
If a team makes it's 3 pointers at an average clip, then how can you say they are an amazing 3 point shooting team? The only thing they were amazing at is taking more than anyone else in the league. It makes sense that you would make more if you take more if you are an average shooting team.
I agree that the Spurs don't rely on the 3 as much as those Rockets teams did, but it's silly to say they were an amazing at shooting the 3 when the Spurs were making them a a higher clip during their le runs. It's silly to say they were amazing just because they launched them more, when their % was average compared to everyone else. Is Duncan an amazing ft shooter since he attempts more than most bigs, even though his average is just so/so (compared to most bigs)? See how foolish that argument is? If anything, the fact that SA doesn't have to rely on the 3 as much is a testament to having other players who could create their own shot and actually having a decent coach that can come up with more offensive sets than "dump it to my big man and stand around".
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