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I think it's very possible that Manu could lead a mediocre team to the playoffs - in the Eastern conference.
Yes.
I have an Argentinean gut.
I think it's very possible that Manu could lead a mediocre team to the playoffs - in the Eastern conference.
I am just pointing out the flaw in your logic, that's all.
You are correct, both sides of the argument are just as weak, because it is based on speculation.
I would speculate that a team with Manu as the go-to guy would not have lost 19 games in a row, or it would not have finished last. But this is just speculative.
"If you have to chose one player..." aahhhh... the question. My answer would always be: it depends. It depends on the context, the players available, your goals, etc. etc.
It amazes me that so many people put so much emphasis on individualism when the truth of the matter is that you have to build a team. The faith of the team is determined by how the group is assembled, how they interact, and how they play together. The sum of the parts < the whole.
I thought this concept was already carved in stone since we lost both in the WBC and the Olympics, but apparently it is not.
Very well said.
*clap-clap-clap*
I understand this concept RVB very well. You are stating things I know very well. I was actually happy for the Argentinian team, almost as if I was cheering for my own country -- because they play the team game to perfection.
However this is not my argument right now.
Bottom line is, do you think Manu is a better player than Tmac? Forget context. If you had to run a franchise and did not know ANY of your surrounding talent, would you take Manu or Tmac?
Would you take Manu over KG, Tmac, and other players with that type of talent?
Just answer that question, because everything you stated is obvious.
What we know? Manu has led an Argentinian team filled with 4 NBA role players and a mediocre supporting cast to a World Championship and a Gold Medal.What we know:
Tmac has led an NBA team of mediocre support to two playoff appearences.
Do you feel Manu could do that, in your gut? Do you feel he is the better player than Tmac?
I feel fairly confident saying Tmac in the same position as Manu, when faced with Team USA in the Olympics, probably would have scored 40 but his team would have lost by 35.
I can't believe we're even talking about this. Tell you what, you can take TMac and his fantasy stats, I'll take the guy who's a winner and kick your ass ten times out of ten.
I would want my team to go to war (last quarter, seventh game, NBA finals) with Manu more than with TMac.
Hmm. I think this thread says far more about TMac than it does Manu.
Basically, we are (collectively) saying that Tmac is a role-player disguised as a superstar.
Ironically, TD is a superstar disguise as a role player, thanks in no small part to the play of Manu and TP.
McGrady may win it at the end in a tight game but if he does it will be with hot shooting like he beat the Spurs earlier this year. Manu will beat you with shooting or driving to the basket or getting the steal, or getting the offensive rebound, or diving on the floor t5o make a save, or taking the charge. McGrady's play is passionless, lackadaisacal, uninspiring. Manu's is passionate, inspiring,. Difference between a loser and a winner.
If my observation is quite obvious, then why you used an obviously flawed logic in the first place?
You implied in your question that KG and TMac are worth the same, something that I strongly disagree.
I am not avoiding your question. Just to clarify my point, Manu is not the best player in the NBA. I would pick KG over Manu in 1 nanosecond. They are on completely different levels. I would also pick Nowitzki, Shaq and many others over Manu. To give a less drastic example, I would pick Lebron James, a player that is not a super star like KG, but with a huge talent and upside (sorry ducks) over him.
On the other hand, I am not so sure about TMac. There is something obviously flawed with him that doesn't feel right. I don't think he is a winner, he just doesn't have it. Same thing could be said of Vince Carter. Just my opinion though.
McGrady isn't normal in the head.
As a rookie, he wanted to quit because he didn't think he was talented.
Last season, he wanted to quit because he said he couldn't score against the zone.
This season, he said the coaching staff wants him to try to get his teammates involved in the offense and he said that he's "not into that".
He needs to take his meds.
I think hes Bi polar.
You can't compare Manu to Shaq, KG or Nowitzki. Two totally different game positions!!! Compare Duncan to KG but not Manu.
Manu isn't the best player of the NBA, but he is the most fun to watch.
If this thead continues, soon you will be asking "Would you trade the Payton Manning for Manu????" "Can Manu be USA president???"
RVB
Personally I am insulted that you recite about the 'team play' of Argentina. If you don't know that I am a huge fan of Argentina and Manu and what they stand for then I am honestly insulted. I guess I do not make my point clear enough the past few years. I love the way they play.
But that does not mean that I think Manu is neccesarily a better player than Tmac. I like the qualities he stands for as a player and a person more than what Tmac has showed, I admire his leadership -- but that does not mean he is a more accomplished NBA player.
We are arguing about semantics here.
It seems to me that people seem to dismiss Carter and McGrady too quickly because they quit on their teams. Yes it is a bad fault, but it does not mean the player is not a very good player. I almost get the impression from you that any player who cannot lead his team far in the playoffs should not be considered a winner AKA Tmac, and VC. Or better yet, anyone who is somewhat selfish or underacheiving based on being overhyped is automatically a much worse player than they actually are.
I made a mistake to lump KG in here, but some people on this board diss KG BIG TIME, and almost lump him with someone like McGrady. Imagine if the Wolves or Lakers missed the playoffs this season, how much scolding Kobe or Garnett would get? Would you scold them too for quiting and not leading their team? Many on this board would.
Who do you feel is the better player RVB? Who would you take if you had to start a franchise?
Please do not recite the same callous speeches over and over. Who is the better NBA PLAYER?
Your telling me that because Manu has not gotten the chance to lead his own team that he is just as likely to lead a mediocre supporting cast into the playoffs as McGrady did.If my observation is quite obvious, then why you used an obviously flawed logic in the first place?
Correct?
I am asking you who is the better NBA player? Not the better teamatte or leader of Olympic play. Keep in my mind that USA did destroy Argentina one game in the 03 qualifiers as well (with Tmac playing).
Just answer that question, because your post about TEAM play is frankly insulting considering its directed at me of all people.
I would think you would understand that I appreciate team play, but at some point I cannot say that Manu is truly the better NBA player than Tmac right now.
He has a bit more to prove don't you think?
Last edited by Nikos; 02-05-2005 at 12:47 AM.
Manu's Argentinian team also got destroyed once by USA, a game in which Tmac played in the 2003 Olympic Qualfiers. So what does that mean?
The point is Manu has not proven he can carry a team in the NBA to the playoffs with mediocre support. You cannot just dismiss what McGrady did in 01-03 just because he flaked out in 2003-04.
I repeat, I love what Manu brings to the table. I value all of it. I love the Argentinain team's heart and team play. I think that is what basketball is about.
But at the same time I cannot say Tmac is an inferior player to Manu in the NBA. If you want to compare the team element and brains then of course Manu would win. He fills his role better than McGrady is filling his. That comes with the territory for McGrady because he is expected to do a lot as a team leader -- something he is not ready for yet.
All in all I think it is more likely that Tmac can hold up a mediocre team in the NBA over an 82game season better than Manu can.
Tmac would not put up Jordan numbers as Duncan sidekick, but I would think he could do a pretty good job if given the chance to commit to it.
But then again, there is always what ifs.....You can always just say..."Ehhh Tmac sucks, he can't even lead his team to 20 wins...." But he has led his team to the playoffs a few times. Should that just be dismissed completely when judging an NBA player?
Not a damn thing. Lots of people are good when it doesn't matter (like the qualifiers). See McGrady for one, or our favorite Turk Hedo frozen in the corner vs. LA Turkoglu.Qualfiers. So what does that mean?
That's the whole point. TMac can put up big numbers and win games in qualifers, or in December, when it's inconsequential in the grand scheme of things.
When the chips are down in the post season, Manu wants the ball. TMac wants to go golfing.
Tmac is one of the best players in the NBA. If he had a second star like Shaq, Duncan, or KG, dude would win all kinds of championships.
I'd take Manu over T-Mac. Manu plays better defense and he's team-first. Manu cannot score like T-Mac, but what a great teammate and with Manu...everyone keeps their heads up, their hands ready, and their heads in the game.
The only real flaw in Manu's game is he can't play more than 30 minutes per game. He just doesn't have the stamina to go out there and give you 35-40 solid minutes over an 82 game schedule.
That is why every GM in the league would take TMac over Ginobili if you had to build a team around one of them. You can't really build a team around a guy who plays a little over half the game, no matter how good he is.
But given that, if I was going into game seven of the NBA Finals, Ginobili is one of the first players in the league I'd want on my team.
You can't be serious. Tracy McGrady is one of the top 5 players in the NBA.
Why is there an argument regarding Manu? The Spurs have the best record in the NBA, yet they have only one representative on the All-Star team?
Of course, you all must realize that something is terribly wrong about this whole thing. I could go online and vote for Tim, Manu, Tony, Rasho every hour on the hour. Doesn't mean they're the best; just means I like them personally.
That's what's horribly wrong with fan selection of the All-Star team. Think, if you will, about the selection of the Houston Rockets center who is honestly not that great. He's tall, but not that good.
We could allow fans to vote once only. The next group of voters would be the sports writers. The next group of voters would be the coaches. You wouldn't have a billion votes for any player.
What the do we fans know, anyway? We know who we like, but we're gonna vote according to who we like - and this would not necessarily mean the best. God forgive me, but I actually cast about a dozen votes for Rasho....
OMFG!
Step away from the keyboard and go take your medication.
I think I already answered your question quite clearly. Go back and read my previous post.
The point about team play was not specifically addressed to you, but to all people that think that players are like legos that can be added and removed like bricks on a wall. You pick players to fit in a team, so absurd hypothetical scenarios of just picking between player A or player B without context (teammates, salary, team cap, position, etc.) are about as useful as an ashtray on a motorcycle.
Good nite.
He's also one of the top 5 babys in the league. He ing quit on Orlando last year, which is why they shipped him out. He has individual talent, but that isn't what great teams are made of. You hear it over and over: great players make the players around them better. Who has McGrady made better? What team has he lifted onto his shoulders and carried? , two "All-Stars" in Houston, and they're barely in the playoff picture.Tracy McGrady is one of the top 5 players in the NBA.
LJ - I think that if Manu "Retired" from the National team, he could play 35. Pop has "managed" his minutes this year, and he's still averaging more per game than last year.
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