Death Penalty: If this is true, I'm disgusted so much with the population as a whole

[Clandestino]

Really? Well it's a godamn shame that minorities and many poor people on death row don't get the ultimate counsel on their side now isn't it?

49.7% of people on death row are black.

They must be the ultimate race.

Sure, the death penalty is an equal punishment applied equaly. My ass. It's the ultimate crock of .

Percent of death row that is White: 55.0%
Percent of death row that is African-American: 42.9%
Percent of death row that is Hispanic: 11.2%
Percent of death row that is Native American: 0.8%
Percent of death row that is Asian: 0.9%

http://www.westernprisonproject.org/...thPenalty.html

[MannyIsGod]

from your page...

Dollars & death

* Estimated cost of a death penalty trial, in dollars: $2 million
* Number of times a capital trial is more expensive than a non-capital trial, in California: 6
* Amount that California could save per year by abolishing capital punishment: $90 million
* Cost in New Jersey in 1991 to impose the death penalty: $16 million
* Number of police laid off in New Jersey in 1992 due to lack of funds to pay them: 500
* Ratio of spending in Jasper County, Mississippi on one capital trial in 1995 to its spending on libraries: 5 to 1

[Duff McCartney]

If you kill somebody...you should be killed.

[Clandestino]

from your page...

the numbers i posted from the site were concrete numbers.. the numbers you chose to post were mainly estimates..and one had nothing to do with the death penalty at all.

also, nj spending 16 million to impose the death penalty is worth it i believe if it prevents even 1 person from ever slipping through the cracks and getting out of prison and harming someone..

also, a murderer on the outside, can still kill someone on the inside if he is in the general population.. maybe someone is in prison for tax fraud and he crosses that lifer that has nothing to live for anyway... the lifer(who should be on death row) could kill him too.

[Guru of Nothing]

* Ratio of spending in Jasper County, Mississippi on one capital trial in 1995 to its spending on libraries: 5 to 1

Sounds like a win/win for the taxpayers of Mississippi.

[MannyIsGod]

the numbers i posted from the site were concrete numbers.. the numbers you chose to post were mainly estimates..and one had nothing to do with the death penalty at all.

also, nj spending 16 million to impose the death penalty is worth it i believe if it prevents even 1 person from ever slipping through the cracks and getting out of prison and harming someone..

also, a murderer on the outside, can still kill someone on the inside if he is in the general population.. maybe someone is in prison for tax fraud and he crosses that lifer that has nothing to live for anyway... the lifer(who should be on death row) could kill him too.

concrete numbers that you had to edit right?

Even if the numbers on race I posted were wrong, and the ones you posted are correct, you left out the included proportions to race in society.

Do you want to go back and post what those numbers are? Probably not because the initial point I made is valid isn't it?

Oh and, I'm glad YOU are deciding waht people have to live for.

[Guru of Nothing]

Even if the numbers on race I posted were wrong, and the ones you posted are correct, you left out the included proportions to race in society.

Manny. When you look at our judicial system, It's not the color of your skin that matters, it's the color of your money. If you want to fight for a more fair system, don't focus on race.

[MannyIsGod]

Manny. When you look at our judicial system, It's not the color of your skin that matters, it's the color of your money. If you want to fight for a more fair system, don't focus on race.

Well, I agree in theory with what your saying, but not entirely. There are a few reasons for this.

Numerically, whites make up a much larger percentage of poor people than do any other race. It is a dispraportionate majority, but it is a majority none the less.

Yet, on death row, black people still make up 42% of the inmates. They do not make up 42% of poor people.

So there is also a disparity there.

Overall, I believe that classism comes into effect much more than active racism in today's society. But I also believe that classism is simply the evolution of racism. Dispraportionate numbers of minorities are poor today because of racism yesterday.

The way you fix this isn't nessecarily by fixing the system, but by fixing society as a whole.

It's the same arguement I made in some threads a few months ago. And as long as minorities are being affected moreso than the anglo population of this country, I think it holds a valid point in these type of discussions.

[Guru of Nothing]

For the moment, I'll buy what you are saying Manny, but if I really dug deep, I suspect I could cast more blame on peer pressure than racism. Others might call it a viscious circle.

There is a racial element in play, but you cannot attack racism and fix this judicial plight. Actually, you can (attack, that is), but it misses the point.

[Spurminator]

Numerically, whites make up a much larger percentage of poor people than do any other race. It is a dispraportionate majority, but it is a majority none the less.

Really? How poor are we talking?

[Guru of Nothing]

the reason why europeans don't like the death penalty, i believe, is because they have had to endure 2500 years of death, very indiscriminately. From vicious kings to mafioso dictators and ruthless emperors. the united states has had its ups and downs, but the country was founded on a clean slate. the crap in the past is almost to far back and to far away to matter.

That's an excellent point. You might be on to something there.

[Spurminator]

And that could also explain why racial tension exists on the issue of the death penalty. America's history is littered with racially-motivated executions, whether by mob or otherwise. Whites really haven't had to live with that kind of fear since the Salem Witch Trials.

[Useruser666]

Sure, what you said had nothing to do about race. I'm not calling you racist. I'm pointing out that your ultimate system is ultimately racist.

I was not talking about any systems. Just the death penalty. Arguing that life in prison is cheaper is a poor justification. You argue that rich white people get better justice, then turn around and say life in prison is cheaper and that's a pro. Neither process should be soley based on economics.

[Clandestino]

I was not talking about any systems. Just the death penalty. Arguing that life in prison is cheaper is a poor justification. You argue that rich white people get better justice, then turn around and say life in prison is cheaper and that's a pro. Neither process should be soley based on economics.

great point... it should be about true justice and not economics...

[Hook Dem]

For the moment, I'll buy what you are saying Manny, but if I really dug deep, I suspect I could cast more blame on peer pressure than racism. Others might call it a viscious circle.

There is a racial element in play, but you cannot attack racism and fix this judicial plight. Actually, you can (attack, that is), but it misses the point.

I think GON hits it on the head. That "peer pressure" is what needs to be addressed. Anyone remember Bill Cosby saying this? Now Manny, before you fly off the handle and keep focusing on racism, how about addressing this and see if it has merit. I say it does!

[Clandestino]

also, i believe in america just about everyone can get out of poverty if they CHOOSE to... many don't want to do the work(whether it be education, moving, whatever) it requires to get ahead.

claiming minorities are poor today because of yesterday's racism is a cop out for all the poor people.

[Hook Dem]

"claiming minorities are poor today because of yesterday's racism is a cop out for all the poor people." .................I agree.

[MannyIsGod]

I was not talking about any systems. Just the death penalty. Arguing that life in prison is cheaper is a poor justification. You argue that rich white people get better justice, then turn around and say life in prison is cheaper and that's a pro. Neither process should be soley based on economics.

You know for someone who got pissed at me for apparently "being full of somtimes", you might want to apply the same logic you use on me to yourself.

#1. I don't argue that as a whole, anglo's get a different form of justice in this country. It's a FACT. Yes, there are individuals that get the shaft and are white as well, but as a whole the race gets better treatment. Whether the cause is money or racism is up for debate, but not the fact that the race gets better treatment than minorities. The numbers are there.

#2. I didn't argue for life in prison based on economics. Someone brought up the amount of money spent on the appeals process, then Cladestino said that was BS. Yet, Cladestino then posted edited figures from a site and decided not to include figures about the cost which did not support his stance.

I don't argue against the death penalty against any amount of money. I argue based on the fact that there is no perfect system, and people use an incorrectable and irreversible method of justice.

But as the article states, people really don't care about that.

[MannyIsGod]

also, i believe in america just about everyone can get out of poverty if they CHOOSE to... many don't want to do the work(whether it be education, moving, whatever) it requires to get ahead.

claiming minorities are poor today because of yesterday's racism is a cop out for all the poor people.

Really??!??!?!?

I'd love to have the reason for the dispraportionate number of minorites in poverty then.

Seriously, give me a good reason.

[Clandestino]

You know for someone who got pissed at me for apparently "being full of somtimes", you might want to apply the same logic you use on me to yourself.

#1. I don't argue that as a whole, anglo's get a different form of justice in this country. It's a FACT. Yes, there are individuals that get the shaft and are white as well, but as a whole the race gets better treatment. Whether the cause is money or racism is up for debate, but not the fact that the race gets better treatment than minorities. The numbers are there.

#2. I didn't argue for life in prison based on economics. Someone brought up the amount of money spent on the appeals process, then Cladestino said that was BS. Yet, Cladestino then posted edited figures from a site and decided not to include figures about the cost which did not support his stance.

I don't argue against the death penalty against any amount of money. I argue based on the fact that there is no perfect system, and people use an incorrectable and irreversible method of justice.

But as the article states, people really don't care about that.

my facts were not edited. you tried to say that blacks made up the largest percentage of death row inmates.. i provided proof that whites made up the largest %, then blacks, then hispanics...

also, until the minorities in this country stop blaming "the white man" they wil never rise themselves... internal vs external locus of control... put the initiative on yourself to better your life!

[Clandestino]

Really??!??!?!?

I'd love to have the reason for the dispraportionate number of minorites in poverty then.

Seriously, give me a good reason.

i have a cousin who was incredibly smart in high school.. made decent grades, but overall was just a very smart dude. he got a job out of high school for the summer..then started school.. he then started working a lot(8am-8pm mon-fri, 9-4 sat) and decided he would just work instead of school.. well, he is still there and still living at home not making for money. he says he knows he needs an education if he is to get ahead, but he is too lazy.

[MannyIsGod]

my facts were not edited. you tried to say that blacks made up the largest percentage of death row inmates.

Wrong, I said that blacks made up a vastly disproportional percentage of inmates on death row, and they do. You failed to post the proportions of the populations in society as a comparison.

also, until the minorities in this country stop blaming "the white man" they wil never rise themselves... internal vs external locus of control... put the initiative on yourself to better your life!

Ok, so the reason minorities are poorer overral, is because they are blaming the white man?

I defintely see how that is much more plausible than hundreds of years of racial inequality. Are you a sociologist?

[MannyIsGod]

i have a cousin who was incredibly smart in high school.. made decent grades, but overall was just a very smart dude. he got a job out of high school for the summer..then started school.. he then started working a lot(8am-8pm mon-fri, 9-4 sat) and decided he would just work instead of school.. well, he is still there and still living at home not making for money. he says he knows he needs an education if he is to get ahead, but he is too lazy.

And your cousin is one example. Everyone has a cousin or a friend, or a friend of a friend that has done something, and that does not make it the rule or a society wide trend.

[Clandestino]

Really??!??!?!?

I'd love to have the reason for the dispraportionate number of minorites in poverty then.

Seriously, give me a good reason.

maybe if ALL or almost all minorities lived in poverty you'd have a leg to stand on.. but since many minorities are making it out of poverty it can't be a "the white man keeping them down" thing.

[Clandestino]

And your cousin is one example. Everyone has a cousin or a friend, or a friend of a friend that has done something, and that does not make it the rule or a society wide trend.

actually, a lot of my family(the ones my age) are underachievers.... they are content with doing nothing. yes, all mexicans... but i do have the opposite side too... my grandfather who started out as a busboy and then owned his own restaurant til he died. uncle who was a truck driver and is now the owner of a trucking company..

i believe you make your own life.. not excuses!