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  1. #51
    e^(i*pi) + 1 = 0 MannyIsGod's Avatar
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    Scientifically, that's utter nonsense, given the very basics of human reproduction.
    And there you have my feelings torwards your claiming the abortion of a zygote is murder.

  2. #52
    e^(i*pi) + 1 = 0 MannyIsGod's Avatar
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    Scenario: A man and a woman engage in consensual sex.

    If the woman wants the child, but not the man, she has the choice to keep it, and legally force the man to support it for the next 18 years.
    Actually, I used to think that too Travis. But it's now my understanding that a father can waive his rights to the child, a legal abortion persay, and not be liable for child support. I may be wrong, but that is what I understand now. I'm trying to find out online.

    If the man wants the child, but not the woman, she has the choice to abort it regardless of the wishes of the father.
    This is the most difficult aspect of it for me. I would want a say in any abortion scenario I was in, and legally I have none.

    However, I can see where a woman shouldn't be forced by a father to carry a child to full term against her wishes.

    It's a tough call, but I just can't find a way to justify making a woman carry an unwanted pregnancy to full term aginast her will.

  3. #53
    Who is this guy, again? travis2's Avatar
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    Actually, I used to think that too Travis. But it's now my understanding that a father can waive his rights to the child, a legal abortion persay, and not be liable for child support. I may be wrong, but that is what I understand now. I'm trying to find out online.
    My understanding is that is not correct. But if you find anything different, post it here.

    That position is my second place position. A distant second place, but second place nonetheless. It is at least an ethically and logically consistent position.

  4. #54
    needs a margarita
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    I think you can waive your rights but can reclaim them? Like in a case where a baby is given up for adoption but then the biological parents or parent change their mind? Not sure.

  5. #55
    needs a margarita
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    I also want to add that I have a file close to 3 inches thick for garnishment of wages for all the dead beat dads that have worked for us over the years. Some of these guys have 2 or more children (There are many different kinds and some list how many dependents with ages, etc). Unfortunately, by the time I receive them, we have already laid them off as most of our ironworkers are hired out of the hall on an as needed per job basis.

    I also have a lot for IRS dodgers, but that's a whole 'nother can of worms.

  6. #56
    Who's Your Caddy?! NeoConIV's Avatar
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    And there you have my feelings torwards your claiming the abortion of a zygote is murder.
    That zygote is human at it's earliest stage. Huuuumaaaan. It's LIFE. Not one of your sperm, like in you jack off reference. A sperm cell will not become a human. We all know that. Your arguement is rationalization, pure and simple. If you halt the natural process of life beginning at conception, it's murder.

  7. #57
    JekkaIsGoddess Jekka's Avatar
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    I think you can waive your rights but can reclaim them? Like in a case where a baby is given up for adoption but then the biological parents or parent change their mind? Not sure.
    In any decision involving a child the decision you make is the one you need to stick with. I've read about cases where the birthparents change their minds, and that's not at all fair to the child, because in this country, court cases like that drag on for years, and it ruins a child's most important developmental stages. Mothers also have 48 hours after giving birth to change their minds without consequence, which is why in most cases the mother is kept in the hospital for that time - adopted children don't go straight to the adoptive parents - my sister and I were both adopted as newborns and my parents didn't receive us until I was 12 days old (only because my adoption was interstate) and my sister was 3 days old. They give you a cushion to prevent those cases.

  8. #58
    Spurs Fan in AZ Samurai Jane's Avatar
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    This seems like a good time to dust off an old favorite..

    http://www.vanderbilt.edu/SFL/dnirvi..._beginning.htm

  9. #59
    Chronic User Bandit2981's Avatar
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    That zygote is human at it's earliest stage. Huuuumaaaan. It's LIFE. Not one of your sperm, like in you jack off reference. A sperm cell will not become a human. We all know that. Your arguement is rationalization, pure and simple. If you halt the natural process of life beginning at conception, it's murder.
    a sperm cell WILL become human if it seeds an egg...a zygote will only become human if it has a womb to grow in. both wont produce anything by themselves, and need a second part to make the process happen. so, if you think killing a zygote is murder, then jacking off is murder as well

  10. #60
    Who's Your Caddy?! NeoConIV's Avatar
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    This seems like a good time to dust off an old favorite..

    http://www.vanderbilt.edu/SFL/dnirvi..._beginning.htm

    Fact 3: As demonstrated above, scientifically there is absolutely no question whatsoever that the immediate product of fertilization is a newly existing human being. A human zygote is a human being. It is not a "potential" or a "possible" human being. It's an actual human being — with the potential to grow bigger and develop its capacities.
    Yep.

  11. #61
    needs a margarita
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    I knew there was a time period she could change her mind. Thanks for the info.

    What about cases where the father didn't know about the baby and it's adopted? Wasn't there a court case where the father tried to get the baby after it was adopted?

  12. #62
    Spurs Fan in AZ Samurai Jane's Avatar
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    a sperm cell WILL become human if it seeds an egg...a zygote will only become human if it has a womb to grow in. both wont produce anything by themselves, and need a second part to make the process happen. so, if you think killing a zygote is murder, then jacking off is murder as well
    A sperm cell on it's own does not satisfy one of the criteria for biological life.. growth.

  13. #63
    Chronic User Bandit2981's Avatar
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    a zygote on its own wont grow either without a womb...im with Joe on this one, i dont like abortions, but i feel its the mothers choice and she must live with either outcome of her decision for the rest of her life.

  14. #64
    Still Hates Small Ball Spurminator's Avatar
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    We just need to figure out a way to nurse a zygote to full health without the mother's womb. Then this whole argument can finally die.

  15. #65
    Seeking the quiet mind desflood's Avatar
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    I knew there was a time period she could change her mind. Thanks for the info.

    What about cases where the father didn't know about the baby and it's adopted? Wasn't there a court case where the father tried to get the baby after it was adopted?
    I believe that's actually happened several times. If a father doesn't know about the child and the mother puts it up for adoption, he never signed away his parental rights and can later apply for custody.

  16. #66
    Chronic User Bandit2981's Avatar
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    We just need to figure out a way to nurse a zygote to full health without the mother's womb. Then this whole argument can finally die.
    im all for research to let us be born from eggs like a bird

  17. #67
    Spurs Fan in AZ Samurai Jane's Avatar
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    a zygote on its own wont grow either without a womb...im with Joe on this one, i dont like abortions, but i feel its the mothers choice and she must live with either outcome of her decision for the rest of her life.
    And you don't grow without food.. that's a silly argument... A sperm needs additional genetic information to go anywhere and ceases to exist once it fertilizes an egg.

    First, the human conceptus -- that which results from conception and begins as a zygote -- is the sexual product of human parents. Hence, insofar as having human causes, the conceptus is human.

    Second, not only is the conceptus human insofar as being caused by humans, it is a unique human individual, just as each of us is. Resulting from the union of the female ovum (which contains 23 chromosomes) and the male sperm (which contains 23 chromosomes), the conceptus is a new -- although tiny -- individual. It has its own unique genetic code (with forty-six chromosomes), which is neither the mother's nor the father's. From this point until death, no new genetic information is needed to make the unborn en y a unique individual human. Her (or his) genetic make-up is established at conception, determining her unique individual physical characteristics -- gender, eye color, bone structure, hair color, skin color, susceptibility to certain diseases, etc. That is to say, at conception, the "genotype" -- the inherited characteristics of a unique human being -- is established and will remain in force for the entire life of this individual. Although sharing the same nature with all human beings, the unborn individual, like each one of us, is unlike any that has been conceived before and unlike any that will ever be conceived again. The only thing necessary for the growth and development of this human organism (as with the rest of us) is oxygen, food, and water, since this organism -- like the newborn, the infant, and the adolescent -- needs only to develop in accordance with her already-designed nature that is present at conception.

    This is why French geneticist Jermoe L. LeJeune, while testifying before a Senate Subcommittee, asserted: "To accept the fact that after fertilization has taken place a new human has come into being is no longer a matter of taste or opinion. The human nature of the human being from conception to old age is not a metaphysical contention, it is plain experimental evidence." [2]

    There is hence no doubt that the development of a unique individual human life begins at conception. It is vital that you -- the reader -- understand that you did not come from a zygote, you once were a zygote; you did not come from an embryo, you once were an embryo; you did not come from a fetus, you once were a fetus; you did not come from an adolescent, you once were an adolescent. Consequently, each one of us has experienced these various developmental stages of life. None of these stages, however, imparted to us our humanity.

  18. #68
    Still Hates Small Ball Spurminator's Avatar
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    im all for research to let us be born from eggs like a bird
    I know plenty of women who would agree.

  19. #69
    Spurs Fan in AZ Samurai Jane's Avatar
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    We just need to figure out a way to nurse a zygote to full health without the mother's womb. Then this whole argument can finally die.
    No, that's treating the symptom and not the problem.. we need women and men to be more responsible for their own actions. If you can't have a baby, you don't want a baby, a baby would inconvenience you, then you take the necessary measures to keep from getting pregnant in the first place. Planned parenthood gives out free condoms and free birth control pills... there are ways. This has nothing to do with feminine sexuality and everything to do with just thinking ahead! I think something like 98% of abortions are performed as a measure of birth control.

  20. #70
    Who's Your Caddy?! NeoConIV's Avatar
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    Where is Yonivore?
    Someone needs to resurrect his ass.

  21. #71
    Chronic User Bandit2981's Avatar
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    Planned parenthood gives out free condoms and free birth control pills
    NOOOOOOOO a study was done and found Planned Parenthood condoms were the absolute worst on the market! make the trip to CVS or something

  22. #72
    Who's Your Caddy?! NeoConIV's Avatar
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    No, that's treating the symptom and not the problem.. we need women and men to be more responsible for their own actions. If you can't have a baby, you don't want a baby, a baby would inconvenience you, then you take the necessary measures to keep from getting pregnant in the first place. Planned parenthood gives out free condoms and free birth control pills... there are ways. This has nothing to do with feminine sexuality and everything to do with just thinking ahead! I think something like 98% of abortions are performed as a measure of birth control.
    Well said.

    Another whole sinister and sickening situation is how abortionists get hooked on the $$$ from performing abortions, and how this taints the so-called "objective family planning". It's scary when an abortion clinic has a bottom line too. Think about unborn Johnny, whose mother is truly on the fence about keeping or aborting, and the mother goes to clinic who is behind on bills. Gotta keep the lights on Johnny, sorry bout that. We're gonna have to go ahead coerce mommy to get the abortion so we can get paid. Better luck next time buddy.

    Ooops. Oh yeah, there is no phuqqing next time.

  23. #73
    Still Hates Small Ball Spurminator's Avatar
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    That's fine and good, Jane, but you can't criminalize sexual irresponsibility.

    Once the pregnancy happens, the woman has two choices: abortion, or 9 months of pregnancy. Those on the anti-abortion side want to force 9 months of pregnancy on someone who does not want the pregnancy, all because she had sex.

    If we are able to surgically remove a zygote or fetus and still raise it to health, we protect the rights of both the baby and the mother. As it is right now, somebody's rights have to be prioritized, and the difference of opinion lies in whose rights to prioritize.

  24. #74
    Who's Your Caddy?! NeoConIV's Avatar
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    But Spurm, the entire crux of my arguement rests on abortion = murder. When it comes right down to it, I couldn't care less about any other arguement for abortion. If abortion is murder, and I most certainly believe it is, that trumps everything else. Period. End of discussion.

  25. #75
    I can live with it JoeChalupa's Avatar
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    Is Bush guilty of "murder" for the deaths in Iraq?

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