TRUE, I AGREE
Vince Carter being a quitter is one of the biggest misconceptions in the NBA..it was created by the Toronto media and Raptor fans, and there's a real story to what actually happened, which I'll share at a later time, since I'm going to sleep right now..
I wouldn't put him "way ahead" of Manu..I don't think there's any separation from #3 to #7, I think you could make a legit argument for any of those guys I listed in any order..
Winning at ude >>> Talent.
I'm interested in hearing how it explains this:
I'd take Manu too because he's my favorite player of all time, but if I wasn't biased, I'd probably pick Kobe over him.
If you look at "clutch" stats, Manu is easily the number 3 player behind kobe and wade. Manu lead the league last year in almost all "clutch" statistical measures.
Kobe's a talent, there's no doubt about it. As a second fiddle to Duncan, you can't go wrong with Kobe, Wade or Manu.
1) Kobe (no need to explain anything here)
2) DWade (his improved defense added to his already amazing offensive talent gets him this spot)
3) Manu/Joe Johnson (argument can be made for either)
4 and on) who cares?
Manu is clearly number 3 here and there is more of an argument to be made for him to be Number 2 than there is for him to be 4th or lower. His postseason resume and overall career accomplishments trump all other NBA SGs except Kobe and Wade. Guys like Joe Johnson, Brandon Roy and T-Mac have no postseason accomplishments. In fact, I'm surprised nobody brought up AI. I'd probably rank him 4th right now.
johnson no way is better than manu
manu has owned his ass back in the days when he was a suns player....
It would be very long to bring all the top qualities that manu has so i'll go with manu's weaknesses (i mean compared to some qualities of the very best SG in the league) :
1) injury prone
2) some bad choices and TO
3) not able to play back to the rim
4) lack of athleticism
5) could he be the first option of a contender team
6) only decent in one on one defense (few of the best SG are great at that)
every other things, i mean EVERY others things, he has them in his game. Every SG, even the very best, have also some weaknesses in their game. The only one more all-around than him is probably Kobe.
Manu is that good. and he also has some qualities (smartness, heart, poise, clutch, work ethic, humble but proud) that transcend a player's game, way over the pure basketball skills.
Last edited by kace; 12-06-2008 at 05:19 AM.
manu has that winning mentality, thats all he needs
which is a requirement when applying for a roster spot on the spurs
When healthy and playing his best, I probably take him over every other shooting guard in the league including Kobe and Wade. The trick is having him healthy and rolling come playoff time. Pop hasn't figured out how to have Manu peak in the playoffs since 2005
Manu was pretty damn good against Utah in '07. Nobody on the team was very good after ten days off, but Manu, again, was pretty good in the last quarter of game 4.When healthy and playing his best, I probably take him over every other shooting guard in the league including Kobe and Wade. The trick is having him healthy and rolling come playoff time. Pop hasn't figured out how to have Manu peak in the playoffs since 2005
No doubt Manu has had great playoff games since 2005. He's probably had his best individual playoff games since then. But 2005 is the only year where you could point to Manu's season and say it peaked in the playoffs.
Yeah I agree with that. I wonder how much of that has to do with Pop putting Manu back into the starting lineup in '05. After watching that Nuggets game, I have to say I missed seeing Manu as a starter.
i think the main knock on manu is durability and strength. there are some boneheaded, overambitious plays here and again, but its more the exception than the norm.
manu rebounds and passes extremely well for a guard. How many times have you seen VC, Tmac, JJ, roy, wade, even kobe making those long, deep in the paint bullet passes manu habitually makes?
and what makes him better than carter/johnson/roy/tmac is exactly what makes him (and wade) injury prone- he plays hard, no-regard-for-my-body basketball.
as for the 1st option argument... no team with manu ginobili as the 1st option is going to win a championship. just like VC raps, Tmac's Magic, Johnsons hawks, etc. You need a team with several quality players to be on that level in the NBA; for that reason i have the respect I do for AI, for taking a "weak" team that far (there is another guy that plays with reckless abandon that makes him bigger than his body, and he is actually more durable than wade and manu)
1) I wouldnt say hes injury prone. Thats a pretty strong word.
2) Wade leads the league in TO's, and has been near the top since he came into the league.
3) Thats one of the detriments of having a slight build, but he has agility that almost no other 6'6" guys have.
4) Manu is extremely athletic, very deceptive. Not Kobe or Wade like athleticism, but its definately a strong point of his game.
5) Probly not. Then again there are very few guys in the league who can call them selves legitimate leaders of a contending team.
6) Hes not the best 1-on-1 defender, but hes active and is a pretty good team defender.
Manu's per-40 minute stats the last 2 seasons
06/07
24.1 PPG
.464%
6.3 RPG
5.1 APG
07/08
25.2 PPG
.464%
6.2 RPG
5.8 APG
This season
26.7 PPG
5.6 RPG
4.3 APG
.540%
Pretty damn impressive. In fact hes been around 20-6-5 since he came into the league. Obviously the knock on him has been his ability to play 40 minutes throughout an 82 game season, but last season he managed 31 per over 75 games.
Given also the Spurs yearly play at the slowest pace in the league, it makes putting up those sorts of numbers is amazing. Hes still way under rated.
You see the type of crazy fantasy stats players put up in run and gun systems like Phoenix and now New York - inflating your numbers like that is impossible in a slow pace.
of course, when i say lack of athleticism, it's compared to others like kobe or wade (it's what i said at the beginning of my post), which was exactly the point of the thread. but i agree that in manu's case, considering his skinny body, it's deceptive.
so, basically you agree with all the points
Pretty much, except 2 and 5.of course, when i say lack of athleticism, it's compared to others like kobe or wade (it's what i said at the beginning of my post), which was exactly the point of the thread. but i agree that in manu's case, considering his skinny body, it's deceptive.
so, basically you agree with all the points
I'm not trying to call you a liar, but do they realy have the fewest possessions per 48 in the league? If so, god damn. And either way, that is a HUGE statisic. Makes guys like Leandro look almost as good as Manu because people put so much on ppg and . But across the board, the only thing Leandro has on Manu is top speed. Everything else he is worse, or drastically worse.
manu really blew it against the lakers last year, that dude played like garbage and shamed his entire country
he doesnt even believe in god
When Manu healthy and playing his best and Kobe healthy and playing his best, you still take Manu over Kobe?When healthy and playing his best, I probably take him over every other shooting guard in the league including Kobe and Wade. The trick is having him healthy and rolling come playoff time. Pop hasn't figured out how to have Manu peak in the playoffs since 2005
Come on. I love Manu Ginobili, but if that's not slappy homerism, I don't know what is.
For the Spurs? I dunno. Kobe is a beast and the best out there for his position, still he has proven to be a sorry team mate in particular when the Lakes are in a losing stretch. I don't think he would ever come to S.A. or that L.A. will ever shop him out (unless you get Le James er sumfin') but to give credence to the argument... Manu has proven to be a winner that thrives just as much (if not more) on the loses as he does wins. He holds himself (sometimes needlessly) accountable for loses that could not just be chalked up to his play or lack of, he plays with something to prove and not for personal ego. Plus he comes relatively cheap, and has an undying devotion to this club. Needless to say Kobe is a living, playing legend of the sport, Manu is a great team mate. I'll take Manu, Kobe would be cancer here.
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