I would agree with that.
If you are talking about a one-on-one matchup between Shaq and Mikan, that is different than what we are talking about here. Although Mikan could win that if he stayed outside and knocked down shots, if he tried to body up Shaq...it would be over quick in favor of O'Neal.
Of course... that's why comparing eras never really works. Players get bigger, more athletic etc... 50 years from now there will be players that make Shaq look tiny and unatheletic.
I think Shaq could have gone down in history as the all time best center ever if he had a work ethic. It's my huge issue with him. But again, that's just my humble opinion.
I know this will be an unpopular opinion, but I'd put the following 9 in a tier all by themselves (in no particular order):
Olajuwan
M. Malone
Duncan
Shaq
Dr. J
Bird
Kareem
Jordan
Magic
The reason is that all these players, in addition to having other accomplishments, won at least one le as the undisputed best player on their team (most won more than one with this distinction) and at least one league MVP (likewise, most won more than one of these, too). I think these features ought to weigh heavily in rankings. But if so, then Pippen, Kobe, and Karl Malone don't belong in this tier.
(And please note: this isn't just Lakers antipathy rearing its head to exclude Kobe. After all, I think Magic, Shaq, and Kareem belong in the top tier.)
Hmmmmm.... according to your criteria.... where is Russell? Best on his team, 11 les, 5 mvps etc etc...
In the spirit of the thread-starter, I limited my thoughts to players who played at least some time during the 1980-2009 period.
But if we drop this qualification, then you're exactly right: Russell gets in, for sure. Chamberlain makes the cut as well. Comparing players from different eras can get a bit tricky, though, and the farther apart the eras, the trickier things get.
I wouldn't have a problem with your list if it was clearly a subjective list of who you felt were the greatest players you've seen, almost like a a combination of greatest and favorites. But you specifically stated: "which ranks the players by what they have accomplished in their career, whether still playing or retired, and not on potential." That leaves your list more open to criticism because it's more of an objective rankings using those parameters.
You don't even have Charles Barkley or Chris Mullin on your list at all. And, you have fools towards the end of your list like Gilbert Arenas and Carmelo Anthony and Derrick Coleman on there but players like James Worthy, Tony Parker, and Chauncey Billups (Finals MVPs) and Manu Ginobili are left off the list. Heck, even guys like Grant Hill, Penny Hardaway, and Stephon Marbury "accomplished" more than guys like Gilbert Arenas, Derrick Coleman, and Drazen Petrovic.
edit: and seriously, Reggie Miller at #16? Fareal?
Karl Malone way too high. I saw him play a lot of games and there's no way he should be that high. DRobinson and Hakeem should be higher. I guess you just forgot about Barkley. Not a bad list for the most part.
Are you a real Spurs fan? You can't leave Manu or Parker out (Manu for sure) if you put those names that I marked there.
Not even close and i'll list the teams.
The most loved & hated teams in the world are
1. Ferrari Formula 1 team. (They probably have more than 200 million fans all around the world, or maybe more).
2. Manchester United Soccer Club
3. New England Patriots (C'mon you know every one hates them, and for some reason i'm a big fan of their's).
4. Mclaren Mercedes Formula 1 Team
5. New York Yankees
6. Real Madrid Soccer Club
Now that is fanaticism
i guess its safe to say that we are the most loved and hated NBA team
didnt read the whole thread but to completely dismiss Gervin is an outrage. At the very least he is in the top 30.
Besides that, timmy is definately better than Pippen. Pippen was good.... A good role player that played on the team with the greatest player of all-time. Switch them and you have a good list.
Also, Paul Pierce is still too young in his career to put him on that list. Lets see if he can keep it up for a while, its only been 1 1/2 seasons since he broke out in my estimation of his talent. As DAF86 said, you cant put CP3 ahead of Parker and Manu at this point, at least not yet....
Last edited by phyzik; 01-22-2009 at 03:09 AM.
DrJ and Shaq in front of Duncan?
That list is re ed
Idiot list. Kareem is a top 3 player hands down. His impact on winning is second only to Russell's
Here's my list in my lifetime of watching the NBA (started really following in the mid 1980s). This is my subjective opinion, not necessarily based on individual statistics or championship rings. These players are ranked in accordance to how great I think they were, regardless of statistics or rings and regardless of longevity, so Reggie Miller isn't going to be high on the list just because he played until he was 60 years old and Grant Hill won't be excluded just because his injury cost him a good 5+ years of his prime and LeBron James won't be downgraded because he's so young. This is greatness I've watched and seen and observed and witnessed. And, it's more about me being amazed by these players and what they were able to do on the court rather than their statistical output or number of awards.
Dr. J was right at the tail end of his career in the mid 80s. Although I know how good he was and have seen highlights and even games on ESPN classic, I didn't really watch much of him. He's not on my list because I didn't watch him enough in his prime. And, Kareem was at his tail end as well when I started really following the NBA. I left him off as well. Obviously, those two would likely be pretty high had I seen them both a lot in their primes.
1. Magic Johnson (I know many disagree, but I was more amazed by Magic as a player)
2. Michael Jordan (yes I hated him)
3. Hakeem Olajuwon
4. Shaquille O'Neal
5. LeBron James (slots 5-7 could really go in any order, imo)
6. Kobe Bryant
7. Tim Duncan (in part because he is so methodically effective, it's sometimes not so "amazing" to me)
8. Allen Iverson
9. Larry Bird
10. Charles Barkley
11. Isiah Thomas
12. Kevin Garnett
13. Dwyane Wade
14. Manu Ginobili (because of how he plays when it really matters in the playoffs)
15. Dirk Nowitzki
16. Vince Carter (his greatness didn't last, but when he was great, wow)
17. Chris Paul
18. David Robinson
19. Karl Malone
20. Grant Hill (looks like Piston bias, but I don't even like him as a player, but before the injury, he was that good)
21. Chris Webber (this is personal bias)
22. Dominique Wilkins
23. Penny Hardaway (what if?)
24. Patrick Ewing
25. Dennis Rodman (still amazes me what he was able to do with limited skill)
26. Jason Kidd
27. Tracy McGrady (I'm largely ignoring the injuries and him being a and going mostly on talent)
28. Tony Parker
29. Steve Nash
30. Dwight Howard
31. Clyde Drexler
32. Larry Johnson (another what if?)
33. Kevin Johnson
34. Stephon Marbury
35. Amare Stoudemire (dumb meets stupid, but still has crazy talent)
36. Tim Hardaway
37. Scottie Pippen
38. James Worthy
39. Reggie Miller
40. Ray Allen
41. John Stockton (I hesitated to put him on the list at all)
42. Chris Mullin
43. Chauncey Billups (never phased by the pressure of the moment, even when he failed)
44. Glen Rice
edit: I realized I left out Paul Pierce and he should probably be in there somewhere, but I don't feel like changing and rearranging it.
Some of my personal favorites who I thought were great in their day or had great talent but were not consistently great enough or didn't meet their potential and talent: Nick Van Exel, Walt Williams, Shawn Kemp (in his prime, insane)
The real top 10 since 1980, based on what they accomplished:
Honorable Mention - Moses Malone
10. Pippen
9. Kobe
8. Olajuwon
7. Karl Malone
6. Shaq
5. Bird
4. Duncan
3. Magic
2. Jabber
1. Jordan
John Stockton at #41? You're a ing idiot if you think there were 40 players better than Stockton within the past 15 years.
To the OP...
Any list that has Reggie Miller and Gary Payton ahead of Stockton is a complete joke.
alot of great feedback on this topic...much appreciated guys!
Shaq didn't have the luxury of going up against unathletic 6'8" white guys. Shaq would up all of those guys.
If you read my opening paragraphs, I stated it was my personal, subjective opinion, and it wasn't based on statistics or accomplishments or longevity, but based on me watching these players and how amazed I was at their basketball play.
John Stockton is a hall of fame player, no doubt. His numbers and accomplishments are great. As a player, he didn't amaze me that much. He was a hard worker, smart player, in a great system with another great player under a great coach. And he never got hurt and played for 50 years.
I appreciate and respect what he did as a player, but his game didn't impress me the way others who didn't accomplish as much impressed me. Again, it's my subjective opinion.
I also started in the 80's so Kareem & Dr.J don't get as much love a sthey should but ...
1.MJ
2.Magic (a CLOSE 2nd)
3.Bird
4.Hakeem
5.Duncan
(that is my all-time top 5 with LBJ probaly taking Bird's in a few more years)
6.Kobe
7.Isiah
8.Shaq
9.Malone
10.Barkley
I guess not many Piston fans liked Jordan after he swept your assess from contention for 10 odd years.
AI in the top ten just messed up your list. He shouldn't be anywhere near the top 20. Kobe & Lebron especially are too high on that list.
Isiah doesn't deserve to be at 11. I'd rather have Joe Dumars instead of that loser Isiah. Dumars was and is still one of my favorite Pistons.
BTW without Dumars, MJ would've swept the Pistons in all those years that the Bulls lost. Thank god Isiah dosn't have anything to do with the Pistons basketball operations otherwise we'd be seeing another version of 2007 Knicks.
Larry Bird is a little over rated. They treated him as the second coming of Russell and in a way neglected Magic in the 80's.
Kobe's 81 on NBA TV, if anyone cares. NBA TV is free right now
Obviously disagree on all accounts.I guess not many Piston fans liked Jordan after he swept your assess from contention for 10 odd years.
AI in the top ten just messed up your list. He shouldn't be anywhere near the top 20. Kobe & Lebron especially are too high on that list.
Isiah doesn't deserve to be at 11. I'd rather have Joe Dumars instead of that loser Isiah. Dumars was and is still one of my favorite Pistons.
BTW without Dumars, MJ would've swept the Pistons in all those years that the Bulls lost. Thank god Isiah dosn't have anything to do with the Pistons basketball operations otherwise we'd be seeing another version of 2007 Knicks.
I do freely and openly admit I hate Michael Jordan. Don't hate him enough to drop him down to something ridiculous like out of the top 10. I placed him #2 after a guy that amazed me more. A 6-9 point guard that could play any position on the court including center. A guy that came into the league and won Finals MVP as a rookie. A five time champion in his own right. A three time league MVP himself. I didn't rank Jordan after Tom Chambers. I ranked him #2 after probably my favorite player of all time and a guy that is widely recognized as one of the greatest players in the game as well. It's not that bad.
I guess I have to reiterate what I wrote once again. I ranked these players subjectively, meaning it's my own personal opinion. And, with that, it has very little to do with statistics or awards or team success or championships, but more to do with me watching these players and being amazed by how great they were as players. With that in mind, it's hardly a stretch to say someone would be that amazed with how great Allen Iverson as an individual player is/was.
I love Joe Dumars, and I think Isiah Thomas as a coach and general manager and overall as a person is an incompetent nutcase. If we rank these players based on things that happened after their playing days were over, I should have dropped Michael Jordan even lower. Isiah Thomas' failures as a coach and general manager does not rewrite his history as a basketball player. He's a top 25 player in the entire history of the game. And, since the mid 1980s, he's easily a top 10-15 player. You can argue a few spaces either way from #11, but it's not even remotely ridiculous to place him there as a player.
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