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Maybe BARRYS problem is numbers like instead of #17 he should use #31 like in past 5 seasons.
Barry use 31 instead of 17
jackson was not worth the money he wanted.
Maybe BARRYS problem is numbers like instead of #17 he should use #31 like in past 5 seasons.
Barry use 31 instead of 17
Whott,
The problem Barry has IMO, has nothing to do with the Spurs "system" or Popovich or playing time, or coming of the bench etc. The problem is in his head. If you are one of the gratest shooters and cant hit an open three or an open 2pointer... the only problem is the problem in his the head. Maybe the emegence of Beno has something to do with it, maybe barry is putting pressure on himself by thinkin: if the rookie can do it why cant i? i really expected he would gain some confidence in the time when he was starting games instead of injured ginobli.
Now I hope finds his stroke in the heat of the playoffs, when other hands start trembling. He proved in some games (houston) he can score in the crunch, when neccesery.
His inability to perform under pressure is nothing new. It's been the story for his entire career. The last time he was in the playoffs, his scoring and assists production declined by 50%. His shooting percentage dropped by 10. And while Bowen contributed to his struggles, Bowen isn't responsible for his dismal performances in every other playoff series he's appeared in.
He's shot 50% in a season before, but his playoff field goal percentage is 39%. That kind of decline can't be attributed to good defense. He's played in several playoff series.
His numbers in practically every major statistical category have declined in the playoffs. And while numbers can't reveal the whole story, they can tell us something if a player puts up similar numbers again and again.
I'm rooting for Barry to perform. I would love to see him help the Spurs win. If he is the finals MVP I'll be the happiest Spurs fan of all. But he has a history of not coming through on the biggest stage. Whottt, you can come up with twenty excuses to explain it, but they can't justify his futility in every series.
He has simply underperformed in the playoffs.
Pointing out that he's never shot under 40% from 3 in the playoffs is grasping at straws?
It's not the pressure...
There's probably less pressure in SA than there is anywhere....
.235%
That's Manu's 3 point PCT from last years playoffs...did he fold under the pressure?
He's not really a pure shooter to begin with. The difference is that Manu played fairly well in just about every other aspect of the game. Barry hit some threes in the playoffs and stuck it up in every single other area.
.336%
That's Stephen Jackson's 3 point PCT from the year we won the le...
Did he fold under the pressure?
I see...and the fact that he was playing a far superior team(the Jazz and us) and trying to win as the lower seed in every series wouldn't have anything to do with that right?
He also took some terrible shots and that contributed to his percentage.
You can compare Barry to anyone else but it isn't going to make the problem go away. Manu and Jackson and Barry are different kinds of players. Manu and Jackson both have had big moments in the playoffs. They've both raised their games for extended stretches in the playoffs. Barry hasn't done that.
You're not going to get anywhere by trying to show that others have struggled at times in the playoffs, too. We know that. It's just that Barry has struggled in every series. And in almost every aspect of the game.
Yeah? And guess what, he's not struggling in every other aspect of the game right now he's struggling as shooter...
.231%
That's what Steve Kerr shot the year we won our first le...I guess the pressure got to him too.
In my mind, no. He played on some decent teams, and he had a chance to do some damage against some good defenders but also against some average ones.
Even if you're the lower seed, your clutch players step up every once in a while. I'm sure you can think of twenty more excuses, and I don't have time to address them all. I personally feel that such a drastic drop in play in every single playoff series cannot be attributed to who he was playing against. He was counted on to be a big time player in the playoffs. Players with clutch ability step up. Sometimes they still lose, but they step up.
So basically stats don't matter with Manu and Jack but they do with Barry?
The double standard is clear...
Case in point...TimVP says Barry has never won anything and uses your stat argument so therefore he's not a winner...
Stephen Jackson has never made the playoffs without being on the Spurs and he never won anything in college either...so I guess the pressure gets to him too.
Tim Duncan's PCT's dropped against the Jazz....a clear case of choking.
I'm only minimally concerned with what he's doing right now. I'm concerned with what he's going to do in the playoffs. But his performances of late are troubling because I think it's important for him to have a sustained stretch of good basketball or he isn't even going to get an opportunity to play in the playoffs.
And again, you're not proving anything by comparing Barry to other players in other situations. Kerr didn't have the same role on the team, didn't bring the same skill set to the table, and had a different history of playoff performances. I've got to agree with the poster who claimed that you're really grasping as straws now.
What next? Are you going to cite some statistic from 1968 from some random bench player to try to show that Barry might perform in the playoffs?
What has Barry done to convince you that he'll perform in the playoffs? I think you must be privately admitting that you're basing your hope on very little while ignoring some pretty substantial stuff.
Jackson isn't the shooter that Barry is. He takes stupid shots sometimes. He plays out of control sometimes. He turns the ball over and chokes away games sometimes. And you're right that Jackson has never won anything without Duncan. That doesn't mean that he folds under pressure. It means that he's played on some crappy teams. Frankly, he doesn't really have much playoff experience outside of San Antonio.
Stats do matter some, but they don't tell the whole story. It's undeniable that Jackson struggled for long stretches in the playoffs. But he's remembered fondly by many because he hit some really big shots in the playoffs, too. Stats do matter with Jackson, but it's easy to look beyond them sometimes if you're doing other things that show you're doing some things to help your team win.
Don't confuse my argument with LJ's. I'm not claiming that Barry sucks because he hasn't won anything. I'm saying that he's been in many playoff cir stances where he's had an opportunity to raise his game and he hasn't done it. Just to clear things up, I don't agree with LJ. I'm looking at what Barry has done in the situations that he's been in.
I'll return to the thread and respond if you actually bother to read what I write. It's clear that your pulling selective pieces of the argument and molding them how you wish to.
Tim Duncan's shooting percentage against one team in one situation has nothing to do with Barry's overall poor play in every playoff series in a different situation. You know that. You're just in too deep to admit it now.
Um...how come when everyone rips Barry they cite his 3 point PCT and say he was just brought here to be a shooter and nothing else matters...yet when they want to gloss him as a choker in the playoffs they use everything but 3 point PCT and act like that doesn't matter?
I am not the one with contradictions and easily disproved assumptions in my argument...
The reason people are saying he is folding under the pressure NOW is because of his 3 point PCT and no other reason...
I just posted statistics showing that he has never shot under 40% from 3 in the playoffs, to point out that the pressure obviously didn't effect his 3 point in his previous series against great teams, and you say I am at grasping at straws?
On top of that I sense a lot of arrogance on Spursfans acting like his teams have done crappy when in fact...Tim Duncan was the only thing that saved us one time and in another series he did better against our nemesis than we ever did..even with Duncan and Robinson in his prime
And I'm saying that he can't be counted on in the playoffs because he's played poorly in the playoffs every single time he's been there. Nothing more, nothing less. His game has delcined dramatically in the playoffs. That's a fact. Frankly, I don't really care what percentage he's shooting if he's playing poorly in every other area.
I haven't contradicted myself yet. He's shot poorly in the playoffs from everywhere else on the floor, and he's played poor basketball when it has counted most. His three point shooting percentage is only a small part of the equation.
What's even more disappointing is that he hasn't shot the ball well for most of the season. That's what makes it worse for me. We know that he's a poor performer in the playoffs. The one thing he's always been able to do, playoffs and regular season both, is shoot threes. Now that he's struggling with that, he doesn't have much value at all.
Bottom line is that there is absolutely no statistical correlation between your playoff arument and Barry's struggles this season....One does not prove the other and they are two separate arguments that contradict each other...You can argue one or the other but when you try to argue them both you most certainly are contradicting yourself.
Last edited by whottt; 03-22-2005 at 02:33 PM.
He leads all our regular guards in assist to to ratio and fewest TO per game(and per 48), he's averaging more assists per game than Beno..he leads the entire team in 2 point PCT and is 4th in PPS.
And believe it or not, according to some efficiency ratings(per 100 posessions) he has been the best offensive player on the team for most of the season....
So since you don't want to talk about 3 point PCT...tell me what stats you are using to say he is underperforming in every other aspect of the game...
Oh wait...you do want to talk about 3 point PCT now...you just don't want to talk about it when using your playoff argument...
Could you pass me that straw please...
It certainly has some value though. In the past, Barry has always been able to hit the three when he's struggled in other areas. Now he's still struggling in other areas, still hasn't proven that he can perform in the playoffs, and can't shoot the ball.
The point is that he had some limited value in past playoff series because he could hit open threes. Unless his ability to shoot the ball improves soon, he really won't have much value.
I have plenty of evidence to show that he'll struggle in the playoffs. I don't know for certain that he won't come out of his shooting slump. So you have somewhat of a point. There might not be a true correlation, but I think it's certainly appropriate to be concerned that he hasn't shot the ball well in a long while.
It's not a contradiction, really. It's simply knowing that he's always struggled in the playoffs combined with observing that he's struggling now in the only area in which he's been dependable in the past. I thought he might hit some open threes in the playoffs at the very least, but his performances of late have me somewhat concerned.
He's stuggled in his most recent playoff series (and all of them, for that matter). He's struggled during the most recent (current) regular season. That's all I'm saying. Those two things combined don't leave me feeling good about Brent Barry and what he can offer to the team the remainder of the way.
What other areas of the game is he struggling in right now? Be sure and check his stats before you do this...
I'm not shocked that his assist to turnover ratio is solid. He plays with one group of inexperienced guards and another group of somewhat reckless guards. I never said he was turnover prone.
I've watched him struggle defensively. I've watched him look uncomfortable in the offense. I've watched him make bad passes. There is a reason why he's sat on the bench a lot this season. If you're claiming that he hasn't struggled, you have a very skewed perspective on things.
Are we disagreeing about that? Should I mark it down that you feel he's given the Spurs exactly what they've expected and that he hasn't struggled this season? If that's your argument, we'll have to agree to disagree and move on.
Anyone who has watched the team this season has seen Brent not know when to shoot. We've all seen him struggle. We can compare his past regular season numbers with his playoff numbers and they actually mean something because he played with the same team both in the regular season and in the playoffs. The cir stances were similar.
We don't really have anything to compare his current situation to. He hasn't played a reserve role on one of the best NBA teams for a coach that emphasized defense. But I see him struggling when I watch the games. If you think he's met expectations and hasn't struggled, just say so.
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