From what I've heard on the news, Zeleya tried to push a referendum to change the amount of terms for a president that everyone from the Supreme Court to Congress deemed uncons utional, Congress and the SC told him no, he said he would do it anyway, and so Congress ordered his arrest. From what I've hear Congress also ordered him to be shipped off into exile. So based on that, I would argue that it wasn't quite a traditional military coup, as it had support of 2 of the 3 branches of government.
I heard that the Supreme Court ordered the arrest. I'd say I'm 99% sure of that. How sure are you it was the Congress, Sam?
Perhaps not. A coup by the consensus of a majority of the branches is still a coup unless there is some clear cons utional basis for it.
Is there? The cons utionality of the coup has been repeatedly asserted, but as yet I find no citation that supports the claim.
Have you found one, Sam?
WSJ:
The accession of Micheletti appears to be kosher..The Honduran Congress met in emergency session yesterday and designated its president as the interim executive as stipulated in Honduran law. It also said that presidential elections set for November will go forward. The Supreme Court later said that the military acted on its orders.
A good discussion of the semantics of the *coup* can be found here. Also in the comments section.
Alas, I'm not an expert on the Honduran cons ution
But my tendency is to say that when 2/3's of your gov't says something, it tends to become legal, especially when the military agrees.
As for Congress ordering the arrest, I thought I heard that on NPR the other day, but I was driving and talking on the phone at the same time, so I may have misheard.
This can be boiled down to *might makes right*, but you're surely correct.But my tendency is to say that when 2/3's of your gov't says something, it tends to become legal, especially when the military agrees.
The proper thing to do probably would've been to prosecute Zelaya under article 42 of the Honduran Cons ution, and then (perhaps) for treason, but I can see how this would've been hard to do.
Doing things the right way can be hard. Inexpedient, too. Zelaya was the executive branch, and he tried to install his cronies in the military to get around the other two branches. There's a good argument that Zelaya was already laboring to upend the established cons utional order in Honduras, at the time of his official persecution.
Additionally, the military would've been justified in using force to repel the ballot box raid, so their restraint in that instance, and in yielding to Congress after the ouster was accomplished, is to be commended IMO.
OTOH, the Mexican press claims a leader of an opposing party was shot and killed by Honduras' military. Details on this were still murky last night as far as I could tell. I think there has been a preliminary official remark on the shooting, but I haven't read it yet.
Last edited by Winehole23; 07-01-2009 at 11:42 AM.
In politics, whether good or bad, might does make right.
And I agree, the situation could have been handled way better, but unfortunately, it wasn't, and for being handled the way it was, other than the international outcry, it wasn't bad anyways.
As for the international outcry, that wouldn't have been that bad if it weren't for Chavez...
I'm not so sure. Seizing Zelaya in his bedclothes, bundling him into a plane and dumping him on the tarmac in San Juan, was a little brusque, but I'm not quite convinced it was unnecessary, still less that it was a particularly bad way for Honduras' Judiciary and the Congress to have accomplished the counter-coup.
For some reason, the condemnation is *universal* on this one.As for the international outcry, that wouldn't have been that bad if it weren't for Chavez...
I was hoping the US would set itself apart by maintaining --following the example of our reaction to the election in Iran -- unenthused technical neutrality on the question. Fake (or tactical) indifference, if you like.
For a moment, Obama seemed be doing this with Honduras.
After sleeping on it Obama joined the international chorus of boos. Phony concern.
Boo.
I just do not understand the world's reaction to this. It was Zelaya who was trying to set himself up as President for Life - Hugo Chavez style. He was warned that it was uncons utional, but he thumbed his nose at them and went ahead with his plans.
So they tossed him out on his butt - in his PJ's - sounds like the right treatment for a thug wanna be!
I just hope the country of Honduras sticks to its law and tells the rest of the world to shut the up and stay out of their business! Geez - I thought we wanted to prevent the rise of dictators such as Chavez, Ortega and Castro.
It has been suggested Honduras could have braved the rogue referendum by declaring it legally inapplicable beforehand, and then allowing it to proceed anyway. Such a strategy discloses contempt for popular sovereignty, even more so as the fake votes pile up.
But the contempt already disclosed for cons utional niceties like formal charges and trials discloses the heart of the criollo elite, which is also remembered in its historical context at home. Everybody knows the score.
The Liberal Party in Honduras is the solid, establishmentarian conservatives. They are the ruling party. That is where Zelaya came from, before he became celoso of power, and started courting a more downscale populism.
That doesn't sound very rough to me, but yeah.
So far, they are.
Again, Honduras is all over it, Crooks.Geez - I thought we wanted to prevent the rise of dictators such as Chavez, Ortega and Castro.
Even if the return of Zelaya is forced upon them -- and I hope it is not -- there is nothing to prevent Honduras from prosecuting him for what he's already done, or arresting Zelaya if he tries to fill any electoral office. The clock probably started whenever Zelaya's cons utional incapacity started. Ten years to regain his eligibility, I think.
If he lives that long, or gets out of prison in only ten years.
US suspends military relations with Honduras
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Jul 1, 8:36 PM (ET)
By ROBERT BURNS
WASHINGTON (AP) - The Obama administration said Wednesday it has suspended joint military operations with Honduras to protest a coup that forced President Manuel Zelaya into exile. The U.S. withheld stronger action in hopes of negotiating a peaceful return of the country's elected leader.
The Organization of American States, meeting in Washington, gave Honduran coup leaders three days to restore Zelaya to power - under threat of suspending Honduras's OAS membership. Afterward, several officials said the administration is still reviewing the possibility of cutting off U.S. aid.
Robert Gibbs, the White House press secretary, said, "We continue to monitor the situation and will respond accordingly as events transpire."
At the State Department, spokesman Ian C. Kelly said the department's top diplomat for the Americas, Thomas Shannon, met with Zelaya at OAS headquarters on Tuesday evening. Kelly would not reveal details, except to say Zelaya thanked the administration for supporting his unconditional return to power.
Kelly said he was not aware of any plan to recall the U.S. ambassador from the Honduran capital. Another official, speaking on condition of anonymity in order to discuss internal deliberations, said the administration believes it stands a better chance of achieving a peaceful outcome if it keeps a diplomat in Tegucigalpa.
The official also said the U.S. was not advocating that the matter be taken up by the U.N. Security Council.
Kelly said the administration was still studying whether the forced removal of Zelaya was a military coup in a legal sense that would trigger a cutoff or suspension of American financial assistance.
"Our legal advisers are actively assessing the facts and the law in question, which we take very seriously," Kelly said.
The administration appeared to be counting on the threat of Honduras having its OAS membership suspended as leverage in getting Zelaya back in power. While the administration joined the OAS in calling for Zelaya's unconditional return, with no limits on his presidential powers, it also seemed open to some form of compromise.
U.S. officials said they were pleased that Zelaya, who had vowed to return to Honduras on Thursday, put that off after the OAS announced the three-day deadline for the country's interim leaders to accept him back. Zelaya was in Panama on Wednesday to attend that country's presidential inauguration.
Zelaya said he would put off his return until the weekend.
The decision to suspend U.S. military activities in Honduras was announced by Pentagon spokesman Bryan Whitman, who said, "We've postponed any activities in Honduras right now as we assess that situation."
Whitman would not be specific, but the suspension could have broad implications because the United States runs a large Central American security and counternarcotics operation from a jointly run air base in Honduras. Whitman said only operations affecting Honduras itself are on hold.
Earlier, OAS Secretary-General Jose Miguel Insulza delivered what he called "an ultimatum" for Zelaya's safe return.
In a sharply worded resolution, the OAS said it vehemently condemned the coup and "the arbitrary detention and expulsion" of Zelaya.
The coup, the OAS resolution said, has produced an "uncons utional alteration of the democratic order."
Calling Zelaya's overthrow an "old-fashioned coup," Insulza said: "We need to show clearly that military coups will not be accepted. We thought we were in an era when military coups were no longer possible in this hemisphere."
Zelaya has said he intends to return home accompanied by Insulza, the presidents of Argentina and Ecuador and the head of the U.N. General Assembly to seek restoration of his authority.
Roberto Micheletti, named by Honduras' Congress as the new president, said Tuesday that Zelaya could be met with an arrest warrant if he returned.
---
Seems to be a bit more here at second glance than appeared to be the case initially.
Interesting, and thanks. Wish I had the time to really sift through it. (sighs)
The picture is pretty unstable right now.
Toque de queda. Curfew. For (two) more days? (Timestamp is 530pm testerday.)El diputado, Antonio Rivera Callejas, manifestó que “es bueno aclararle a la opinión publica en general que las garantías individuales confiscadas se hacen durante el período de las 10:00 de la noche hasta las 5:00 de la mañana, la libertad de asociación por ejemplo que contempla este nuevo decreto es que no pueden haber reuniones públicas solamente en ese tiempo, todos los derechos como la libertad de expresión se pueden dar en el transcurso del día”.
“La diferencia es que no todos pueden circular, no puede haber libertad de asociación, pero en el día se pueden hacer las manifestaciones que quieran siempre y cuando vayan enmarcadas en la ley y el orden”, agregó.
Keep in mind that the OAS has been pretty much taken over by Chavez's cronies.
The Foreign Minister, Enrique Ortez Colindres, told CNN's Spanish language service Zelaya will face charges of drug trafficking in addition to being accused of "violating the cons ution."
According to Ortez, the U.S. Drug Enforcement Agency has evidence of millions of dollars in narcotics money linked to Zelaya. The presidents of Argentina and Ecuador, and the head of the Organization of American States, have said they will accompany Zelaya to Tegucigalpa to serve as a "diplomatic shield." Also among the group will be Miguel D'Escoto Brockmann, the former Nicaraguan revolutionary, who now serves as president of the UN General Assembly, and who has used that position many times over the past year to needle the United States.
The Inter-American Development Bank on Wednesday halted aid, following a similar move by the World Bank. And the United States indicated it may follow suit, saying it would wait until Monday before making a decision.
I couldn't agree moreZelaya is just another Chavez wannabe hiding behind the "democratically elected" bull excuse. Yes, he was democratically elected... for ONE ING TERM! He had no authority to call for that referendum and he got what he deserved. I for one, am completely behind the Honduran supreme court on this one. SOCIALIST DICTATORS IN THE MAKING!
and Christina Fernandez de Kirschner for poking her nose where it doesn't ing belong and for disregarding the far more important of her responsabilities which is to ADDRESS THE PROBLEMS OF HER ING COUNTRY before going off to play mediator where she's NOT wanted.
As long as the military doesn't take over "interim" command, then yeah... him.
That's my only qualm about this.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...400879_pf.html
Although the U.S. government knew for months that Honduras was on the brink of political chaos, officials say they underestimated how fearful the Honduran elite and the military were of ousted President Manuel Zelaya and his ally President Hugo Chávez of Venezuela.
Rumors were buzzing in the capital that the fight between Zelaya and his conservative opponents had reached the boiling point, but diplomatic officials said the Obama administration and its embassy were surprised when Honduran soldiers burst into the presidential palace last Sunday and removed Zelaya from power.
U.S. diplomats had been trying to broker a compromise and were speaking to both sides hours before the coup. For decades, Washington has trained the Honduran military, and senior U.S. officials say they did not think that the Honduran military would carry out a coup.
Interesting fact is that the DEA, although small compared to FBI-CIA, is a really strong force in international intelligence gathering after just re-entering the sector.
Octavio Sanchez lays out the cons utional rationale.
By the way . . . Chavez and anybody who supports him
Micheletti and Zelaya accept mediation of Oscar Arias.
From Volokh Conspiracy:
From Powerline blog:Why are We Backing Zelaya, the Former President of Honduras?
Dan Miller has a seemingly careful account of the situation in Honduras, claiming that there was no military coup:
If Miller is correct, then it appears that the initial reporting of a military coup was grossly mistaken. Manuel Zelaya was not removed from office by the military. After he he was legally removed from office by the Honduran Supreme Court, the military arrested him and removed Zelaya from their country rather than simply arrest him as they were ordered to do. According to Miller, the military is not running the country; the cons ution remains in effect and the civilian cons utional successor is in charge.As most already know, the Honduran Supreme Court was in the midst of a ongoing clash with President Manuel Zelaya on June 28 when an order was issued for President Zelaya’s arrest. The order was executed by the Honduran military, which, it appears, exceeded its authority and not only arrested him but took him to Costa Rica. It did so to prevent internal violence.
The crisis was due to a number of things, including Zelaya’s efforts to amend the Honduran cons ution in ways both procedurally and substantively prohibited by that do ent. The congress then followed the Honduran laws of presidential succession and appointed the (civilian) president of the Congress, Roberto Micheletti, to be the interim president until elections could be held, as scheduled, in November.
While claimed by many to have been a coup by a military junta, it was not. The civilian government remains in power, and the military remains subordinate to it. (A more detailed account is provided in an article I wrote on June 30. A certification by Honduras of its bases for removing Mr. Zelaya from the presidency is provided here.)
Since the departure of Mr. Zelaya, Honduras has been a focus of much unwanted international attention. President Hugo Chávez of Venezuela has been adamant in demanding that Mr. Zelaya be reinstated as president; the United States Government, while less acerbic, has demanded the same. The Organization of American States (OAS) and the Bolivarian Alternative for Latin America and the Caribbean (ALBA), largely under the leadership of President Chávez, have demanded Zelaya’s return, and so has the UN.
Publicly, at least, Honduras stands alone with the sole exception of the government of Panamá, which, on July 6, asked the various governments to keep their noses out of Honduras’ internal affairs. President Ricardo Martinelli, who recently won the presidential election in Panamá by an unprecedented sixty plus percent with very high voter turnout, stated:
News coverage in Panamá of the Honduran mess has been less biased than most coverage in the United States and elsewhere, and the return of Mr. Zelaya is favored by very few here. . . .
On July 6, he departed Nicaragua for Washington, D.C., where he is to meet with Secretary of State Hillary Clinton prior to his anticipated attempt to return to Honduras on July 8 or 9. Previous meetings subsequent to Mr. Zelaya’s removal from the presidency had been with lower ranking officials.
Also on July 6, an unofficial mission representing the interim Honduran government left for Washington, even though the United States government has not recognized it. According to the Latin American Herald Tribune, “a spokesman for the State Department said Monday that no U.S. officials would meet with representatives of ‘the de facto regime’ in Tegucigalpa.” . . .
What happens next? Mr. Zelaya has threatened to make a second attempt to return to Honduras. Through a spokesman, he stated that “it could be by air, sea or land. … We are not going to say where.” The main Honduran airport remains closed, and it seems unlikely that Mr. Zelaya will be able to land there. Assuming that he nevertheless tries to return, the options would appear to be by land or sea — unless, of course, he decides to bring a parachute. When his aircraft was prevented from landing on July 5, he said that if he had brought a parachute, he would have used it. . . .
It would not be surprising, however, if Mr. Zelaya attempted to return via Nicaragua accompanied by Nicaraguan troops.
In these cir stances, it seems unlikely that either side would back down. This would set the stage for a military confrontation at the border, during which it is conceivable that Mr. Zelaya and others would be killed.
That’s what may happen. What I think should happen is rather different. Panamá has it right, and foreign countries should keep their noses out of Honduras’ internal affairs. The early elections proposed by the interim Honduran government would very likely defuse the explosive situation there and, like the vote a few years ago when Mr. Zelaya was elected, would be fair and transparent.
Why hasn't the US recognized the cons utional successor to Zelaya?
As yet, I have seen no coherent argument from the US government regarding why we are backing the former president, Manuel Zelaya.
"Secretary Clinton holds talks with Honduran President Jose Manuel Zelaya at the State Department."
UPDATE: Note the State Department's caption for the picture. It should be former Honduran President Zelaya.
For Winehole...President Obama has claimed that the removal of Honduran president Mel Zelaya is "illegal." However, Hans Bader, senior counsel at the Compe ive Enterprise Ins ute, demonstrates otherwise,
Bader points out that Zelaya flouted court rulings by using intimidation to try to get Hondurans to change their cons ution to allow him to extend his tenure in office. In response, the country's Supreme Court issued an arrest warrant for Zelaya, which the military enforced by seizing Zelaya and kicking him out of the country. The country's legislature then voted almost unanimously to replace him with its legislative speaker, in accord with the country's cons ution.
According to Bader:
Bader bolsters his analysis by quoting from an op-ed by Octavio Sanchez, a Honduran lawyer and former Minister of Culture, in the Christian Science Monitor. Scott linked to Sanchez's piece last week.Obama is quite wrong to claim that the removal of Zelaya was "illegal." The Honduran president forfeited his right to rule under Article 239 of the Honduran Cons ution, which bans presidents from holding office if they even propose to alter the cons utional term limits for presidents. And the Honduran military, which acted on orders of the Honduran supreme court, expressly had the right to remove the president for seeking to alter the cons utional term limit, under Article 272 of the Honduran Cons ution. . . .The Honduran military's role in enforcing the court order does not make it a "coup" anymore than federal troops' role in enforcing the court-ordered integration of the Little Rock public schools in 1957 cons uted a military occupation or takeover.
Obama's position on Honduras is part of an emerging, and very sad, pattern. His bogus catchphrases may vary ("meddling," "illegal," or whatever), but the result always seems to be the same. Whether the venue is Honduras, Russia, or Iran, Obama instinctively sides, in the first instance, with the enemies of freedom and the rule of law. And it doesn't hurt at all if that party is also hostile towards the U.S.,
Honduran Cons ution:
Articles 239 & 272
ARTICULO 239.- El ciudadano que haya desempeñado la ularidad del Poder Ejecutivo no podrá ser Presidente o Vicepresidente de la República.
El que quebrante esta disposición o proponga su reforma, así como aquellos que lo apoyen directa o indirectamente, cesarán de inmediato en el desempeño de sus respectivos cargos y quedarán inhabilitados por diez (10) años para el ejercicio de toda función pública.
* Modificado por Decreto 299/1998.
* Modificado por Decreto 374/2002 y ratificado por Decreto 153/2003.
ARTICULO 272.- Las Fuerzas Armadas de Honduras, son una Ins ución Nacional de carácter permanente, esencialmente profesional, apolítica, obediente y no deliberante.
Se cons uyen para defender la integridad territorial y la soberanía de la República, mantener la paz, el orden público y el imperio de la Cons ución, los principios de libre sufragio y la alternabilidad en el ejercicio de la Presidencia de la República.
Cooperarán con la Policía Nacional en la Conservación del orden público.
A efecto de garantizar el libre ejercicio del sufragio, la custodia, transporte y vigilancia de los materiales electorales y demás aspectos de la seguridad del proceso, el Presidente de la República, pondrá a las Fuerzas Armadas a disposición del Tribunal Nacional de Elecciones, desde un mes antes de las elecciones, hasta la declaratoria de las mismas.
* Modificado por Decreto 136/1995 y ratificado por Decreto 229/1996.
* Modificado por Decreto 245/1998 y ratificado por Decreto 2/1999.
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