Phoenix-Houston

[Jimcs50]

And by the way, I'd like to start a movement to get Nash a nickname; how about Canadian Bacon for the way that Tony Parker has smoked his ass for the last three years?

How about MVP?

[Spurminator]

For comparison's sake....

2003 Mavs
FG% Allowed = .438
League Rank = 12th
League Avg = .442

PPS Allowed = 1.17
League Rank = 12th
League Avg = 1.18

Rebound % = .481
League Rank = 25th
League Avg = .500

TOs Forced = 15.3
League Rank = 5th
League Avg = 14.2


2005 Suns
FG% Allowed = .446
League Rank = 14th
League Avg = .447

PPS Allowed = 1.14
League Rank = T-2nd
League Avg = 1.21

Rebound % = .487
League Rank = 27th
League Avg = .500

TOs Forced = 13.5
League Rank = 20th
League Avg = 13.9


I think it can be said that the Suns are underrated defensively, which I also maintained about the Mavericks in 2003. Compared to the rest of the league, both teams are/were in the middle of the pack. The Suns' main flaws are that they do not force many turnovers and their rebounding is horrible. But they are near the top of the league in Opponent Points per Shot, which is probably due to the fact that they foul less than most teams (they are 2nd in Opponent FT attempts).

[bigbendbruisebrother]

How about MVP?

Touché.

I agree that he has as an individual had a huge impact on improving his team.

Which makes it all the more sweet that TP owns him.

[picnroll]

Not saying it couldn't happen but which was the last middle of the pack defensive team to win an NBA championship?

[SirChaz]

Ah, blaming the refs in advance! What an interesting strategy!

Do you not watch the playoffs?

This is not a big mystery or a controversial position. The referees allow more contact in the playoffs. Rick Barry was talking about this on NBA TV yesterday.

Everyone talks about the "physical nature" of the playoffs. Why do you suppose it is any different than the regular season?

Is there a separate rule book for the playoffs?

[bigbendbruisebrother]

Do you not watch the playoffs?

This is not a big mystery or a controversial position. The referees allow more contact in the playoffs. Rick Barry was talking about this on NBA TV yesterday.

Everyone talks about the "physical nature" of the playoffs. Why do you suppose it is any different than the regular season?

Is there a separate rule book for the playoffs?

Hey, I'm glad you have found a valid excuse in advance for what may happen to your team in the playoffs. You're a loyal Mavs fan, and I salute you for your dedication.

[SirChaz]

In the two games in which both teams had their full starting lineups, the Suns gave up 243 points to a team (the Spurs) which averages 92 ppg (correct me if I'm wrong on that last stat; that was from memory).

Solid statistical analysis. Judging a whole season on the result of two games.

Brilliant.


BTW the Suns were not at full strength in the OT game on Jan 21. So now we are down to 1 game and the Suns are not the same team they were in December.

In the first game the Suns folded. I like to think of it as a lesson learned.

[picnroll]

SirChaz which team do you see as the biggest obstacle to the Suns reaching the finals?

[SirChaz]

Hey, I'm glad you have found a valid excuse in advance for what may happen to your team in the playoffs. You're a loyal Mavs fan, and I salute you for your dedication.

There are no excuses.

Have I said anything that is not true?


OH boy you are on a roll. Comparing the Suns to the Mavs.

Can't tell the difference huh? Not suprising.

[bigbendbruisebrother]

Solid statistical analysis. Judging a whole season on the result of two games.

Brilliant.


BTW the Suns were not at full strength in the OT game on Jan 21. So now we are down to 1 game and the Suns are not the same team they were in December.

In the first game the Suns folded. I like to think of it as a lesson learned.

Alright, then refute Spurminator's statistical comparison with the 02-03 Mavs.

The point was and is this: the Suns style (or we'll use your word "choice") predicates giving up big numbers which will hurt them in the playoffs. You blame the officiating. Whatever the reason, DEFENSE WINS CHAMPIONSHIPS and the Suns have some growing to do in that area. I'm not saying its not possible, but I am saying that if they run into a Duncan-led Spurs team in the playoffs playing the style of defense they've played so far, the Spurs will win (though I agree that it will be a tough series just as the 2002-2003 Western Conference Championship against the Mavericks was).

[bigbendbruisebrother]

Not saying it couldn't happen but which was the last middle of the pack defensive team to win an NBA championship?

That is an excellent question. Any stats folks out there that can give us an answer on that?

[SirChaz]

SirChaz which team do you see as the biggest obstacle to the Suns reaching the finals?

There are no easy roads to the finals in the West.

Teams with size will give the Suns problems on the boards.

Denver and San Antonio come to mind.



Frankly I am not even thinking about the Finals.

As far as the Suns in the playoffs goes it is a big question how they will perform considering their youth and inexperience.

[SirChaz]

Alright, then refute Spurminator's statistical comparison with the 02-03 Mavs.

The point was and is this: the Suns style (or we'll use your word "choice") predicates giving up big numbers which will hurt them in the playoffs. You blame the officiating. Whatever the reason, DEFENSE WINS CHAMPIONSHIPS and the Suns have some growing to do in that area. I'm not saying its not possible, but I am saying that if they run into a Duncan-led Spurs team in the playoffs playing the style of defense they've played so far, the Spurs will win (though I agree that it will be a tough series just as the 2002-2003 Western Conference Championship against the Mavericks was).

Now it is a moving target.


If the Suns don't win it is because they are not good enough, not because of their 'style'.
I have not blamed anybody for anything, I mearly pointed out the fact that they allow more contact in the playoffs. Do you deny that this is the case?

Before the Pistons there were a lot of offensive teams that won the championship. Lakers of the '80s come to mind as a championship team not known for defense.

There is no doubt that a team has to play good defense to win a championship but as long as your defense is good enough to get some stops down the stretch of games what difference does it make how many points are scored? As long as your teams scores at least one more point that the other team your defense was good enough.

[Spurminator]

Not saying it couldn't happen but which was the last middle of the pack defensive team to win an NBA championship?

I think I looked at this a year or two ago, and I believe it was the 1995 Rockets.

It's certainly rare... but on the other hand, the rules of the game have shifted somewhat this year to be more "kind" to offensive teams.

[Jimcs50]

I think I looked at this a year or two ago, and I believe it was the 1995 Rockets.

It's certainly rare... but on the other hand, the rules of the game have shifted somewhat this year to be more "kind" to offensive teams.

The 95 Rockets has some very good defensive players on that team.

Dream, Horry, Elie, Thorpe, Drexler, Cassell, Smith and Chuck Brown were all better defenders than most of the Suns players.

[SirChaz]

The 95 Rockets has some very good defensive players on that team.

Dream, Horry, Thorpe, Drexler, Cassell, Smith and Chuck Brown were all better defenders than most of the Suns players.

Very good defensive players?

Sam Cassell? Kenny Smith? Chucky Brown?

You almost had me convinced for a second.

[picnroll]

... and Elie too. The Dream alone erased a whole lot of mistakes.

[Jimcs50]

They were good at what they did on defense, they always turned their man to the baseline and led them to Dream. they worked as a team and they totally frustrated DRob and Elliott the whole series.

[Spurminator]

BasketballReference.com tracks Defensive Efficiency... Here is where every Championship team ranked the season they won (since the ABA/NBA merge).

2004 - Pistons - 2nd
2003 - Spurs - 3rd
2002 - Lakers - 2nd
2001 - Lakers - 2nd
2000 - Lakers - 1st
1999 - Spurs - 1st
1998 - Bulls - 3rd
1997 - Bulls - 4th
1996 - Bulls - 1st
1995 - Rockets - 12th
1994 - Rockets - 4th
1993 - Bulls - 8th
1992 - Bulls - 4th
1991 - Bulls - 6th
1990 - Pistons - 1st
1989 - Pistons - 3rd
1988 - Lakers - 11th
1987 - Lakers - 6th
1986 - Celtics - 2nd
1985 - Lakers - 6th
1984 - Celtics - 6th
1983 - 76ers - 5th
1982 - Lakers - 9th
1981 - Celtics - 4th
1980 - Lakers - 9th
1979 - Sonics - 1st
1978 - Bullets - 9th
1977 - Blazers - 9th

[picnroll]

Rockets had a bad start to their 1995 run. Be interesting to see their last couple of month performance that year on D.

[bigbendbruisebrother]

Now it is a moving target.


If the Suns don't win it is because they are not good enough, not because of their 'style'.
I have not blamed anybody for anything, I mearly pointed out the fact that they allow more contact in the playoffs. Do you deny that this is the case?

Before the Pistons there were a lot of offensive teams that won the championship. Lakers of the '80s come to mind as a championship team not known for defense.

There is no doubt that a team has to play good defense to win a championship but as long as your defense is good enough to get some stops down the stretch of games what difference does it make how many points are scored? As long as your teams scores at least one more point that the other team your defense was good enough.

The target is still where it was in my first reply to you. Defense wins championships SirChaz. The reason (whether refs allow more contact, teams clamp down or a combination of both) is not the issue. I'm not denying that the Suns have a chance. They're a very good team. What I'm saying is that they're going to have to play better defense if they're going to win a championship. Do you disagree with that? If not, then we don't really have an argument (aside from my ribbing you about your team, which I think is natural given that you are in a Spurs fan forum) and I can get back to yardwork before my wife kills me.

If you disagree and think that the Suns will not need to play better D, I must point you to the Mavs post season record. They have had and still have to some extent, whether you care to admit it or not, a similar offensive-minded scheme, and it just doesn't work versus teams that rebound and play excellent interior and transition defense. You can go back to the 80's Lakers if you want, but I don't think it reflects the reality of the teams the Suns will face in the playoffs.

[picnroll]

What's surprising to me is given how athletic Stoudamire is, how poor he is on the defnsive end. Somebody needs to kick that boy's butt.

[SirChaz]

The target is still where it was in my first reply to you. Defense wins championships SirChaz. The reason (whether refs allow more contact, teams clamp down or a combination of both) is not the issue. I'm not denying that the Suns have a chance. They're a very good team. What I'm saying is that they're going to have to play better defense if they're going to win a championship. Do you disagree with that? If not, then we don't really have an argument (aside from my ribbing you about your team, which I think is natural given that you are in a Spurs fan forum) and I can get back to yardwork before my wife kills me.

If you disagree and think that the Suns will not need to play better D, I must point you to the Mavs post season record. They have had and still have to some extent, whether you care to admit it or not, a similar offensive-minded scheme, and it just doesn't work versus teams that get rebound and play excellent interior and transition defense. You can go back to the 80's Lakers if you want, but I don't think it reflects the reality of the teams the Suns will face in the playoffs.

I don't deny the Suns have to play better defense to win a le.

The Suns themselves don't deny it. D'Antoni and Nash have said as much recently. But they are playing better defense lately. Like I said before the Suns biggest problem is rebounding. Playing great defense for 24 seconds don't mean a thing if you don't close it out with a rebound. Giving playoff teams second and third opportunities will get you beat.

The question is will they improve enough, soon enough to survive?

Nobody knows because this young team has never been to the playoffs.

[SirChaz]

What's surprising to me is given how athletic Stoudamire is, how poor he is on the defnsive end. Somebody needs to kick that boy's butt.

No argument here, but he is getting better.

Given his age and prior experience his improvement has been nothing short of remarkable.

Just last night he only scored 9 point but still impacted the game with 4 ast and 2 blocks and 14 rebounds.

The biggest complaint among Suns fans is with his ability this guy should have double digit rebounds every game.

[tempe85]

For comparison's sake....

2003 Mavs
FG% Allowed = .438
League Rank = 12th
League Avg = .442

PPS Allowed = 1.17
League Rank = 12th
League Avg = 1.18

Rebound % = .481
League Rank = 25th
League Avg = .500

TOs Forced = 15.3
League Rank = 5th
League Avg = 14.2


2005 Suns
FG% Allowed = .446
League Rank = 14th
League Avg = .447

PPS Allowed = 1.14
League Rank = T-2nd
League Avg = 1.21

Rebound % = .487
League Rank = 27th
League Avg = .500

TOs Forced = 13.5
League Rank = 20th
League Avg = 13.9


I think it can be said that the Suns are underrated defensively, which I also maintained about the Mavericks in 2003. Compared to the rest of the league, both teams are/were in the middle of the pack. The Suns' main flaws are that they do not force many turnovers and their rebounding is horrible. But they are near the top of the league in Opponent Points per Shot, which is probably due to the fact that they foul less than most teams (they are 2nd in Opponent FT attempts).

Let's just pretend the Suns are on the same level defensively as the 2003 Mavs. Well those Mavs came within two games of making the championship, without a post player like Stoudemire. The Suns also average 7.4 more PPG than those Mavs so maybe that will be enough to make up for those two games?