Ludden: Spurs sub in Barry and Mohammed

[smeagol]

Like most players, Ginobili probably would prefer to start. But winning, he said, is the only reason he needs to continue his reserve role.

I've repeated this a million times. But people keep bringing up McHale, and what an honor it is to be a 6th man.

For the millionth time, if Manu coming of the bench helps the Spurs win the championship, I'm all for it (provided that he gets 30 mpg + he finishes the games).

But please, stop with the ing BS that its the same to start or to come of the bench. I'm amazed how some of the most intelligent posters keep bringing this up. It is not.

The best players start. That's how it's supposed to be. If Barry didn't need pampering, or if the Spurs bench was not sucking as it has been lately, Manu would be starting because he is the second best player in this team.

Manu has said in the media and in his website he is OK with coming of the bench. But as Johnny Ludden states in his article, he probably would prefer to start.

That is the ing bottom line.

Please stop bringing up KM and all the other great six men. Its getting old.

[ChumpDumper]

Please stop bringing up KM and all the other great six men.

Why do you not like the comparison? Did you not see McHale in his prime? Ever heard of Hondo?

We'll quit bringing that up if others stop saying the only reason he should start is some unwritten rule saying he should. Agreed?

[smeagol]

We'll quit bringing that up if others stop saying the only reason he should start is some unwritten rule saying he should. Agreed?

No I don't agree.

My point is that starting is not the same as comming off the bench. If you want to believe it, more power to you.

I don't see TD, KG, Kobe, TMac, Nash, Snaq, AI, Dirk, Marion, King James, Melo, Pierce, Allen, Yao, Brand, Big Ben, Arenas, etc, etc, etc coming of the bench.

There is no unwritten rule Manu should start always, the same as there is no unwritten rule the players I just mentioned should start always. But they do. And if they are told they are going to be benched because John Doe needs more confidence, most of them would . (remeber AI?).

I've asked this before. Is the 6 MOY award as prestigious as the MVP award?

Tell me, without googleing it, the last 10 6 MOY. Now tell me the las 10 MVPs.

[ChumpDumper]

My point is that starting is not the same as comming off the bench. If you want to believe it, more power to you.

I don't. But one is not more valuable than another by definition.

There is no unwritten rule Manu should start always, the same as there is no unwritten rule the players I just mentioned should start always. But they do. And if they are told they are going to be benched because John Doe needs more confidence, most of them would . (remeber AI?).

I don't get why Manunites are so quick to equate Manu with a pouty whiner like AI. This is the same thinking that led them to the conclusion that Manu would leave over the summer. It was faulty thinking then and it's faulty thinking now. There should be some kind of penance for thinking so little of a demigod.

I've asked this before. Is the 6 MOY award as prestigious as the MVP award?

Is the regular season MVP award as prestigious as the NBA Championship? Which would you say Manu would rather have?

Manu > team

It's ok to believe that--you have already admitted it--just don't act like you don't.

[ducks]

Had Brown been healthy and playing as energetically as he did the first three weeks of March, the Spurs probably would not have had reason to make the move. Brown and Nesterovic both returned Wednesday, but Popovich said he has no plans to make them part of the "immediate rotation."

[ChumpDumper]

My point is that starting is not the same as comming off the bench. If you want to believe it, more power to you.

What am I sacrificing? Do you know what's the difference? That I don't play the first 6 minutes, when everybody's cold and not doing much, and then the first 5 minutes of the second half. Where's the problem? What harm is being done to me? The only one risking something is Pop for if we lose or I suck as a sub or Barry as a starter, Pop is the one who's gonna get killed. What is the high price I may have to pay? If you look at it from a selfish point of view, I'm in a win-win situation.

Rough translation from Manu's website. Take it up with him.

[whottt]

Manu > team

It's ok to believe that--you have already admitted it--just don't act like you don't.

He didn't say that you twisting . Learn to read.

[ChumpDumper]

As for what my fellow countrymen are thinking or feeling regarding the move, I don't think it has to do with pride. It proly has to do with liking the player more than the team.

If it's not his viewpoint, he hasn't denied it. He's free to do so -- I'll ask him point blank.

Smeagol, do you like Manu more than the Spurs and does this affect your opinion about his coming off the bench?

[T Park]

liking the player more than the team

Uh that tells me

Manu > Team.

[whottt]

smeagol...you are a good open minded person, like myself, I've seen this characteristic in you no matter how heated the argument...don't waste your credibility on the hemmorhoid known as Chump.

Does a rock admit when it is wrong? Well neither will Chump. Same type of thing there...

Notice how he keeps acting like being critical of this move means you don't want to win a le and his endorsement of it means he does? Yet the only evidence we have suggests this move won't win a le...last season.


Welcome to my world...where people give themselves props for waiving Heal and Mercer and other choking manuevers...yet never seem to remember that we choked by having a bunch of tentative choking guards that they wanted....and didn't win a le.

Next time someone posts the link to the waive Mercer or Heal threads be sure to read them...you'll see me nailing the eventual choke and reasons for it to a T, in October! What you won't see is any of them ever admitting I was right.

The only thing you'll see Chump doing in those threads is talking about how we should use Mercer at PG :rofl

So don't waste your openmindedness on those that aren't worth it...I understand you guys point on Manu...and you're right to be protective of Manu...he carries the basketball legacy of an entire country, his coming off the bench does not make us a le contender if we aren't one with him starting...and this years props for his unselfishness will last for 1 season and if it continues beyond this season(it won't so don't worry) after that people will be saying Barry>Manu, even in the media....just like they did with Hedo last season...For proof of this I give you Chumpdumper...remember that he did just that.

All this because Pop insists on giving a rookie minutes in big playoff games at the PG spot and refuses to try and better utilize Barry's enormous offensive talent by a running a couple of plays for him off the bench.


Starting Barry is a lazy attempt at correcting the solution, and it won't be a permanent one..in fact I doubt it will work tonight. We had all regular season to get more out of Barry, the guy who has performed the best in the clutch all season long...and the Spurs just refused to do so...they'd rather Beno be thrown into the fire...

[T Park]

All this because Pop insists on giving a rookie minutes in big playoff games at the PG spot and refuses to try and better utilize Barry's enormous offensive talent by a running a couple of plays for him off the bench.

Udrih seemed to play alright in game 2 .


Jesus.


Only you would bag and rag on a fellow spur just for your 's benefit.

Christ.

[whottt]

Smeagol...I give you the guy who liked Hedo more than Jack:

Udrih seemed to play alright in game 2 .

We had an 11 point lead the first time he came into the game. I give him credit...he didn't blow it like he did the 9 point lead in game 1...but I still don't trust rookies until they have given me reason to do so...and Beno hasn't given me reason to do so...

Jesus.


Only you would bag and rag on a fellow spur just for your 's benefit.

Christ.

Please shut the up...you rag on players worse than anyone...except Rasho.

[boutons]

t_pork is constanly on the rag and won't take his Midol

[ChumpDumper]

Notice how he keeps acting like being critical of this move means you don't want to win a le and his endorsement of it means he does?

Bull . I'm asking why everyone is so pissed about it and what they would do differently. The answers I've gotten have had nothing to do with the games that have been played.

Yet the only evidence we have suggests this move won't win a le...last season.

Only if you think Barry = Hedo. Don't act like you think that you hypocrite. I can link your tirade against that.

For proof of this I give you Chumpdumper...remember that he did just that.

I did not and you know it. Lie and get called on it.

All this because Pop insists on giving a rookie minutes in big playoff games at the PG spot and refuses to try and better utilize Barry's enormous offensive talent by a running a couple of plays for him off the bench.

Oversimplify much?

Yes.

That's all you do.

Manu doesn't need anyone's protection and he isn't the whiny you have portrayed him to be.

Mercer = championship

It was a lock. I see the error of my ways.

[ChumpDumper]

Let smeagol speak for himself.

We don't need to be distracted by Heal+Mercer=multiple rings.

Stay on point and say why starting Barry is a bad idea or STFU.

[whottt]

Bull . I'm asking why everyone is so pissed about it and what they would do differently. The answers I've gotten have had nothing to do with the games that have been played.

Um, how about that it didn't work last season...

Only if you think Barry = Hedo.

I don't think Barry=Hedo...the Spurs evidently to do though, since they are trying the same ing thing with Barry.

You guys act like Barry has torn it up when he's started...he's had some good statistical games as a starter...but his best games(and our biggest wins of the season) have come with him off the bench, when Pop had no alternative but to use him extensively.

Manu doesn't need anyone's protection and he isn't the whiny you have portrayed him to be.

What a you are to use his unselfishness in trying to portray him as some guy who lusts to come off the bench.

Mercer = championship

It was a lock. I see the error of my ways.

Idiot...you wanted him playing PG....I just wanted him as a specialist.

And...Kentucky...

Mercer wouldn't have choked, neither would Heal..Mercer wouldn't have struggled to reach a ball 2 inches to his right...Mercer would have been all over that and jacked it up before anyone knew what happened, and looking at the shots he took in close games last season...he would have made it....just because he's a ball hog doesn't mean he's a choker...and that's a distinction you were never able to make. He's not a choker.

[ChumpDumper]

No, you think the result will be the same, so you obviously do think Barry=Hedo.

Compare Barry's production in games one and two. Notice any difference?



I never did. I have quotes from Manu saying that his fans are overreacting.


LMFAO. Back when you were spouting bull about Nazr's always being a loser, you conveniently left out that same school. At least you are consistently inconsistent.


Yes, the two biggest playbreakers this side of Marbury and Crawford would've brought home the trophy, no doubts whatsoever. A lock.

[Spurminator]

Regarding the Hedo comparison, Hedo responded VERY well to the move in the first few months after it was made, then faded back to mediocrity once the Playoffs had started. Perhaps Barry will have the same sort of instant success in the beginning, timed perfectly for the Playoffs.

Maybe it's a little bit supers ious, but it's no less tangible than the rest of the conjecture in this thread.

[whottt]

Edit...sorry for ing up your post Chump...I didn't realize I still had mod powers...give me a second to fix it.

[ChumpDumper]

Regarding the Hedo comparison, Hedo responded VERY well to the move in the first few months after it was made, then faded back to mediocrity once the Playoffs had started. Perhaps Barry will have the same sort of instant success in the beginning, timed perfectly for the Playoffs.

whottt believes, along with everyone else, that Barry is simply a better playoff performer than Hedo. That alone should make this year's move better than that of last year.

The only real opposition he has to this move is that he doesn't trust Beno. That's valid, but the injury situation is such that he has to be played.

[whottt]

No, you think the result will be the same, so you obviously do think Barry=Hedo.

Wrong...I think it will be even less successful than it was with Hedo. Hedo pouted like a little because he wanted more shots...it was his contract year...His whole freaking motiviation was to get paid in the off season....he didn't care about winning...

For proof of this...he signed with the team with the worst record in the NBA last season...and if IIRC it was after they traded their biggest star.


But anyway...Hedo got his shots and then when we really needed him to take those shots he didn't want the pressure that went with them.


Now correct me if I am wrong...but haven't you ripped Barry all season long for not taking enough shots? That's not what Hedo did...Hedo wanted more shots, until we needed him to make them.

Barry hasn't looked for his shots enough...but he's never been afraid to take the big ones...

Compare Barry's production in games one and two. Notice any difference?

Damn if Barry's production could make that kind of a difference in Parker and Duncan it makes Pop even more of an ass for refusing to play him in the 4th in game 1.(FWIW I think he does help them, I just don't think he needs to start to do it, I think he needs PT in 4th quarters where we are choking)

I never did. I have quotes from Manu saying that his fans are overreacting.

He said the same thing last season....don't confuse being team player with a happiness at coming off the bench...you .

LMFAO. Back when you were spouting bull about Nazr's always being a loser, you conveniently left out that same school. At least you are consistently inconsistent.

If there's one thing I have consistently said about Nazr since listening to interviews with him it's that he's not a choker....I migth have called him a loser...and he has been in the NBA.. he does seem to be unlucky(see game 1)...still, I think we can beat the Hawks suck off of him and find the winner within eventually...I just don't think it's going to happen this season.

Yes, the two biggest playbreakers this side of Marbury and Crawford would've brought home the trophy, no doubts whatsoever. A lock.

Idiot...you were the one that wanted to see him as the primary ballhandler...not met. I wanted him as a specialist...IE put him in the game when you want a ballhog...

A ballhog can be a good thing...they have their role to play on the team..but only an idiot wants them playing PG

[ChumpDumper]

Now correct me if I am wrong...but haven't you ripped Barry all season long for not taking enough shots?

For passing up wide open shots and passing to guys who were forced to take worse shots.

Wrong...I think it will be even less successful than it was with Hedo.

So you go on and on about Hedo, but say nothing about how it will be worse.

Damn if Barry's production could make that kind of a difference in Parker and Duncan it makes Pop even more of an ass for refusing to play him in the 4th in game 1.

I've stated my opinion on game one. Next.

don't confuse being team player with a happiness at coming off the bench.

Never did. So don't lie about it. Waiting for the link.

If there's one thing I have consistently said about Nazr since listening to interviews with him it's that he's not a choker....I migth have called him a loser...and he has been in the NBA.. he does seem to be unlucky(see game 1)...still, I think we can beat the Hawks suck off of him and find the winner within eventually...I just don't think it's going to happen this season.

As the point rushes over your head....

A ballhog can be a good thing...they have their role to play on the team..but only an idiot wants them playing PG

That was the only time he played worth a for the Spurs. there was no way in we were going to keep this guy for the role you wanted. Why reward a whiner? If you don't want to do it with hedo, why do it with Mercer?

[whottt]

For passing up wide open shots and passing to guys who were forced to take worse shots.

I've seen you guys make that criticism all season long of Barry and you have yet to back it up...

We shot 51% in game 1 with Barry taking 2 shots in 19 minutes...

We shot 23% without him on the court in the 4th.

So you go on and on about Hedo, but say nothing about how it will be worse.

You guys want Barry to be more of a ballhog...if you want him to be more of a ballhog...give him the ing ball...don't put him on the court with Parker and Duncan and wait for him to get it from them. He just stepped up when called out...like he has done all season...but it's not gonna make his teamates look for him more often...he's defiitely got a problem with being passive and not wanting to make waves on the best team he's ever played on, and he's struggled to turn himself into Steve Kerr this season...but he's not the gutless pussy that's afraid to shoot you guys have portrayed him as being...when it's time to shoot the big shots and that role has fallen to him he's taken them.

That was the only time he played worth a for the Spurs. there was no way in we were going to keep this guy for the role you wanted. Why reward a whiner? If you don't want to do it with hedo, why do it with Mercer?

Because fixing what was wrong with Hedo wasn't gonna win us a le, it was serving a selfish desire totally unlrelated to winning, letting Mercer be Mercer for sequences of games, and serve his selfish desire, could have.

If I have to choose between two types of selfish players I'll take the one who wants more shots just for the sake of getting more shots over the one who wants them to get paid...

Hedo openly whined about struggling on the bench because of not getting enough shots and being worried about his contract...

Barry has never done anything of the kind.

And Barry didn't come here to be a starter or to get a bigger contract, he came here to win a championship....and he's not a worried about a contract.

He's worried about fitting in...the Spurs rep for unselfish play is widely known...Barry comes here and tries to play that way and he gets ripped for it.

[ChumpDumper]

I've seen you guys make that criticism all season long of Barry and you have yet to back it up...

It happened. You have the tapes.

You guys want Barry to be more of a ballhog.

He took more shots more often in game 2, so yes.

but it's not gonna make his teamates look for him more often.

Except they did, and he hit those spot-up shots he supposedly sucks so bad at.

Because fixing what was wrong with Hedo wasn't gonna win us a le, but it...letting Mercer be Mercer for sequences of games could have.

Hedo openly whined about struggling on the bench because of not getting enough shots and being worried about his contract...

Barry has never done anything of the kind.

Try to keep track about whom you are talking. Barry has nothing at all to do with that part. You will never convince anyone that Mercer had anything close to a positive effect on the Spurs. Not one Spur compained about letting him go. What does that tell you?

[ChumpDumper]

He's worried about fitting in...the Spurs rep for unselfish play is widely known...Barry comes here and tries to play that way and he gets ripped for it.

That is a steaming pile of crap. Barry himself said he was here to hit threes, and he admitted he was doing badly in that regard. You can't ignore direct quotes from Manu and Barry, no matter how much you try.