I shouldn't have said 10....
but with his athletisism and body...don't you think he should seriously be around 11 or 12 a game??
For various reasons I don't. More than anything though, I think it's ridiculous that people think there's some monumental difference between 9 rebounds and 11-12 rebounds. Maybe if Grant Hill and Steve Nash forced some missed shots here and there Amare would have the opportunity to grab 11-12 rebounds.
I can't agree that Amare is a waste of talent. He's basically a great athlete who has added elements to his game. He's now a very good jump shooter and has some finesse moves around the rim.
Amare has always been more athletic than talent. Someone like Rasheed is talented. I don't think Amare could have produced much more in his career than he has to this point. From all accounts, he's a hard worker who spends tons of time in the gym. His weaknesses are almost all attributable to just not being the brightest bulb.
It's also hard to call Amare a waste of talent when he's come back from microfracture surgery better than any other big man I can think of. He's also never had a coach who demanded good defense from him or had patience with letting him develop as a post player. The guy to blame for him being someone who needs pick and rolls to score and sucks on defense isn't Amare, it's Antoni.
I agree with the last statement.
But IMO there is a monumental difference between 9 rebounds a game, and 12. Thats 246 rebounds a year man.
All that being said, I still think Amare is a very good player. He's had a very nice career so far and he's not a "bust" by any means. My only thing with him, and it always has been, is I think he should be a little bit better of a rebounder....thats all.
Every year in training camp he talks about how he needs to get better on defense to improve his game, and that's not some coached answer. It's true he's not the sharpest penis in the vagina, but he's cognizant enough to know that defense is half the game and he doesn't play any. And yet he doesn't do anything about it. And while it's also true that he spends a lot of time in the gym honing his offensive craft, it's a form of laziness to not devote some of that time to work on his d. Even Dirk has overcome his limitations to become an adequate defender. Amare can't do anything about his lack of basketball IQ, but he does suffer from mental laziness.
Carmelo Anthony is an example to me of a guy who became a complete player because of dedication to his craft, after being a one-dimensional guy who only cared about scoring, and he's not exactly a Rhodes Scholar himself. What's Amare's excuse?
If Amar'e is an underachiever and has questionable IQ then Dwight Howard probably deserves a nod as well. He gets into foul trouble often, is second in the league in technicals and personal fouls per game (Amar'e is third for the latter), and has about one of the worst offensive games for a players thats arguably the best big in the league.
Howard has been trying to add some moves and a bank shot but just imagine if he went through untimely injuries like Amar'e has!
I agree. Howard has been a minor waste of talent up to this point. He could be the best player in the game, ahead of even Lebron, if he could learn a few post moves other than that crappy running jump hook.
my vote for a top 5 waste
True, but hasn't Dirk also given us the standard boilerplate about adding some post moves to his game? And it never happens. Year after year Dirk tells everyone how he's working on some post moves but then the season starts and we see nothing. And the team brings in Kevin McHale, and everyone raves about how Dirk will have some post moves, and then it never happens.
At some point you just say a player is what he is. Dirk is never going to be able to play in the post, because that's not who he is as a player. It doesn't mean he's wasting his talent, he's just a terrible post player.
I don't think Amare is wasting his talent because he doesn't play defense, I think at this point you just have to say he is what he is. A ty defender.
What do you mean he's never developed post moves? I've seen him go into the post and seal a guy with a drop-step. He's not a good post player, but that's not for lack of trying. If you play him there for 48 minutes a game, he's not going to turn into Hakeem Olajuwon all of a sudden. Tim Duncan has a reliable mid-range jumper but you don't want him shooting that all game long. I mean, what is your complaint? That he doesn't go into the post enough? That would lead to a drop-off in scoring efficiency.
Len Bias.................. dude might have been as good as MJ.
For me, I'd go with several that have been mentioned already:
1. Baron Davis - someone brought him up already, but he is arguably the most naturally talented point guard in the league. If he could have gotten his weight down consistently to around 210-215, I think he doesn't have the back problems he's had. And, if he worked as hard on his game as he does with his Hollywood celebrity, he'd be owning the league.
2. Eddy Curry - probably one of the most gifted post scorers in the league. Not all of it is on him since you could point out to his heart condition probably holding him back some, but that's not the only or even main reason he's wasted his talent.
3. Larry Hughes - out of St. Louis, I thought he had all the makings of being a star player in the league. He has similar natural talents as some of the really great shooting guards in the league. He even showed flashes of being a really, really, really good player in the league. He still had enough years left in the league after he broke out with Washington. I don't know what happened to him in Cleveland for his game to completely regress to the point of virtual non-existence.
4. Darko Milicic - maybe he's just an afterthought at this point. But, his combination of size, strength, and athleticism at the very least should have allowed him to be similar to Tyson Chandler or even Brendan Haywood. And he's not even close to those guys, let alone really reaching his potential. It's not that he's not talented. There is/was something much deeper going on than his talent. Rumors in Detroit was that he was a huge partier, got wasted and snorted. It's not all his fault. I think Dumars and Larry Brown hurt the kid mentally just as much as Darko hurt himself. He lost confidence and motivation to even work on his game. He's a huge joke. But, give his height, his size, his length, his athleticism to any number of guys in the NBA, and he could have even possibly been a KG type player or a Dwight Howard type player. His physical attributes are there. Something is really ed up in between the ears. What a waste.
5. Tim Thomas - also already mentioned, but this guy could have done wayyyyyyyy more with his career. Athletic 6'10 and 235 with guard skills? At the very least, he should have had a comparable career as Lamar Odom. At best, with his skill package and natural talent, he could have dominated the small forward position similar to say Carmelo Anthony. I remember looking at Milwaukee when they had Glenn Robinson, Ray Allen, Sam Cassell and Tim Thomas and thinking that as soon as Tim Thomas put it all together, that team would be really, really scary. Yeahhh, well guess not.
Darko was never good or that talented to begin with. He was just overly hyped by the media which led to one of the biggest draft blunders of all time and that's not really his fault.
Dumars and Chad Ford are just dumb and much more to blame than Darko.
It wasn't really the media. It was basically every single NBA scout and GM that felt he had the natural talents and skill set to be regarded so highly. Now, that's not to say scouts and GMs aren't wrong sometimes. They certainly are. But, even if they were wrong about his skillset, his size, strength, athleticism combination are "natural gifts and talents" that were still wasted by a kid who didn't work hard enough and had very little mental toughness.
So I would disagree with your contention. But, hey it's your opinion.
I think Mo Williams. Do you guys agree?
What? He's a less talented, more talking version of JET.
No it wasn't 'every single scout/gm' That's just your misguided opinion to help you sleep at night. Just because your favorite team blundered a draft pick doesn't mean every other team would have. You have no proof otherwise.
Carmelo had superior NBA talents and that was made clear by his performance in College. Darko was a high risk project that should have went around 8-15 like most white big man projects (that usually end up busting in the NBA).
My opinion hasn't changed on the matter though. Melo was clearly the better basketball player with superior natural gifts in my eyes when Darko was stupidly drafted before him.
But hey, it's your opinion.
I don't have a problem admitting Dumars and the Pistons ed up with drafting Darko. They did. It's very clear right now they should have selected Carmelo.
But, that doesn't support your opinion that it was just media hype. Even if you want to argue there were GMs that would have selected Carmelo over Darko, which there were some, every NBA GM and scout, EVERY SINGLE one of them had Darko at the very least in the top 3, still above Dwyane Wade, still above Chris Bosh. Now even if I concede that 50% (which is a stretch) of NBA GMs would have taken Melo over Darko, that same 50% would have taken Darko with the third pick. And they would have been wrong. But, he was still that highly regarded.
It was not just media hype as you stated.
You can't really believe what you hear from scouts and GMs at draft time though.
Actually it does. Because 'every gm/scout' did not watch Darko play much basketball. Most fans never heard of him or even seen him. His hype was greater than Yi, by far.
Prove it then. Because you can't. I can also guarantee you most GMs/scout did not see much of Darko based on location. Most had no chance of drafting him so they didn't even bother to scout him or had very limited video of the guy. To say every gm/scout had Darko above Wade and Bosh is pure horse and is coming from a butthurt Piston fan.
That's just your opinion actually. And I believe that number would have been much, much higher than 50%. The Pistons were thinking long term (or replacing Ben) with Darko and were high on prince so I sort of get where the pick was coming from - but that doesn't make it any less stupid. Same with Bowie. Always grab the talent before need that high in the draft.
Yes it was. He was hyped by ESPN (see the MEDIA) and Chad Ford to stupid levels. This, despite limited ability to see the man the play. 99% of NBA fans didn't even know who the guy was until Chad Ford started screaming that he was the next Sabonis.
Even then, Darko's athletcism and skill level was never that great at all. If he played in college where everybody in America could have watched him he would not have been drafted 2nd overall. Media product.
While Darko was most definitely overhyped, he was most definitely part of the top 3 in that year's draft, with Lebron #1, and Melo or Darko going 2 and 3. Bosh was the consensus 4, and people were shocked Wade was picked at 5. He was considered too short at SG back then.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nbadraft/d...playerId=18423
Links to draft profiles are few and far between, but Darko being selected #2 did not cause an uproar back then because melo was rated much higher than Darko, but because Melo was a known star coming out of college, while Darko had the potential to be a game-changing big man in the league for years to come. The basketball purist felt it was unnecessary risk taking Darko instead of getting a sure thing like Melo.
The Darko selection made even more sense when you factor in the fact that Detroit could wait for Darko to develop, already have Tayshaun Prince at SF, and does not have an offense that could accommodate a volume scorer like Melo.
Another draft report on Darko:
http://www.nba.com/draft2003/profiles/MilicicDarko.html
Reactions right after the draft:
http://sports.espn.go.com/nbadraft/d03/story?id=1573414 (Detroit got an A+. It's from ESPN, so take it for what it's worth)
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/bas...27/nba_grades/ (A- for Detroit. SI is at least a little more reputable than ESPN)
Thanks for proving MY point ambchang. The only evidence you have here is a ESPN link, which is the media and had a monopoly on stuff like this back then. At least draftexpress is more prevalent now. All that ESPN Darko hype was led by Chad Ford and no one takes him seriously anymore, for good reason.
Except if you actually WATCHED WADE PLAY you would have realized he WAS a gamechanger. He DOMINATED in the NCAA tournament before the draft. No one was 'shocked' he went 5 - y V was slobbing over his nuts. What the are you talking about? Wade was balling in his final season at marquette.
Yes I heard that before, from the mespnedia. Have you seen Darko play? Did you ever see him play before he was drafted? What talent was wasted? He was never, ever that great of a player and less athletic than Tyler Hansbourough.
Basketball purist like Chad Ford and Pistons FO?Notice how Melo was a 'sure thing'. Because he was. Media hype vs sure thing, hmm.
Yes that was the justification for drafting the great white euro media hyped big man. And it blew up in their face. Just like it blew up in Portland's face back in 84.
Tyler Hansborough is more of an athlete than Darko based on his measurements. Everybody saw him play in college 4 years and realized he would be a middling NBA player. If Darko had played college ball, there is not a chance in he would have went in the top 5.
e - meant Marquette not Pitt.
Last edited by Ode to Triple Ocho; 02-16-2010 at 04:04 PM.
Amare has never had the veteran influence Melo had or the coaching influence Dirk had. AJ set up a system where Dirk played a specific role on D, he made sure that either Damp or Diop was on the floor to defend the low post so Dirk knew his job on D was pick and roll/help D. Basically, AJ found a way to maximize Dirk's physical strengths on D and hide his physical weaknesses. Having Amare guard bigger, stronger players and fight with them for rebounds isn't maximizing his strengths, in fact it's exposing them.
When Iverson was the PG on Denver, Melo played horrible D. Billups showed up and Melo's D got a lot better. You can't expect Amare to play D when the veterans on the team (Nash and Hill), are two of the worst defenders in basketball. They day Amare gets a veteran defensive leader like Billups at PG and still sucks at D is the day you can criticize him for not improving the way Melo has.
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