Building for the future

[Allanon]

The problem with the Big 3 is that having 3 is not enough anymore. You really need a Big 4 or 5 to contend right now:

Cavs: LeBron, Shaq, Mo Williams, Jamison
Lakers: Kobe, Pau, Bynum, Odom
Mavs: Dirk, Kidd, JET, Butler
Nuggs: Melo, Billups, KMart, Nene or Smitty
Celtics: Pierce, KG, Ray Allen, Rondo
Magic: Howard, VC, Nelson, Lewis

[Jace]

The problem with the Big 3 is that having 3 is not enough anymore. You really need a Big 4 or 5 to contend right now:

Cavs: LeBron, Shaq, Mo Williams, Jamison
Lakers: Kobe, Pau, Bynum, Odom
Mavs: Dirk, Kidd, JET, Butler
Nuggs: Melo, Billups, KMart, Nene or Smitty
Celtics: Pierce, KG, Ray Allen, Rondo
Magic: Howard, VC, Nelson, Lewis

Not really true, the big 3 for the Spurs just aren't the "Big 3" anymore. Duncan isn't as good as he was(still great), Manu isn't anywhere near the force of nature that he was and Tony is a very old 27 while competing with an influx of very talented young PGs

Of the teams you listed only the Lakers, Magic and maybe the Nuggets have a true "Big 3"

Cavs have 2 superstars and a bunch of good roleplayers(Shaq,Mo,Hickson, Big Z) and the Mavs have Dirk and then a bunch of good roleplayers

Celtics were trying to trade Ray Allen, Garnett is a shadow of himself and Pierce is beginning to fade

Big 3 is fine if you have a good enough Big 3 or good enough roleplayers, but the Spurs don't have either.

They have a Big 1 in Duncan and then a Fading Two in Manu/Parker supported by what exactly?

A rookie in Blair, promising PG in Hill and then a bunch of old bigs

[LongtimeSpursFan]

Well, maybe it is if you expect this team to make the leap that has happened in previous championship seasons. But I think that is highly unlikely at this point. All the signs point the other way. This hole is a lot bigger than the one we pulled out of in 2007. Back then we were still able to lock teams down, something this team utterly fails at. On the flipside, if RJ had gelled and we had become a fabulous scoring team, that might have given us reason for hope, but we're just a bit better than average on offence.

Nope, I don't think this thread is premature, and I brought it up now so that people could discuss players available at the deadline who might help us next year (like, say Antawn Jamison... although now he's gone) and beyond.

Really, unlike a lot of SPurs fans, I can see the writing on the wall (we are done as a contender without a miraculous trade that rids us of RJ and brings in both an athletic big and a bona fide scorer), so I want to see a full-blooded youth movement. People say that would be a waste of Tim's last two years, but I see it from the other side - imagine what he could instill in a bunch of youngsters over the next two years! Management could probably sell him on that too because Duncan is the kind of guy who sees the big picture.

You do realize RJ is the fourth leading scorer on the team. He is averaging more points than the our fourth leading scorer last year plus is getting more rebounds, assists and steals than either Mase or Finley last year.

As far as done being a contender there are only several teams a year that have a legitimate chance and I think the Spurs can compete with most of these teams. We have a deep bench (if not the best bench in the league) and while Duncan, Manu and Parker are not having 2007-type year they are still one of the best trios in the league. With the addition of Splitter next year we will have 3 solid bigs and Blair that is not quite a 'big' but sure does play like one. This Spurs team is solid for the next couple of years.

[Josepatches_]

Please stop dreamin'

This year is our last chance without rebuild.

TD isnt 30.Manu isnt an all star anymore and he could go.Tony is young but his legs have a lot of miles.He never was as good to be the leader of a championship team.

Hairston? Ian? Splitter?? C'mon....we will be the same team or worse than now.That's not enough.

This team is done.Dont try to add role players.We need main stars.

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

You do realize RJ is the fourth leading scorer on the team. He is averaging more points than the our fourth leading scorer last year plus is getting more rebounds, assists and steals than either Mase or Finley last year.

As far as done being a contender there are only several teams a year that have a legitimate chance and I think the Spurs can compete with most of these teams. We have a deep bench (if not the best bench in the league) and while Duncan, Manu and Parker are not having 2007-type year they are still one of the best trios in the league. With the addition of Splitter next year we will have 3 solid bigs and Blair that is not quite a 'big' but sure does play like one. This Spurs team is solid for the next couple of years.

Yes, and statistics always tell the full story. The guy hasn't fit and that's the end of it. he hasn't stepped into the gap he was supposed to fill, namely reliable scoring.

As for you people who think that "the big 3 can still contend", a few things:

1. it was a BIG 4 that won this team the last 3 championships - Tim, Manu, Tony and BRUCE.
2. Bruce is gone and we have no-one that even approaches what he brought to the team (if we had landed Batum or Sefolosha last year, things would be a little different);
3. the "Big 3" is now a "big 2 1/2" - Manu has declined physically and is no longer the clutch scorer he was... still a very useful player, but he's not the third piece on a contender any more. RJ was meant to absorb some of that slack and has utterly failed to do so.

And now the Bobcats get Ty Thomas for Acie Law and a pick!? Sheeeeeit.

[HarlemHeat37]

The problem with the Big 3 is that having 3 is not enough anymore. You really need a Big 4 or 5 to contend right now:

Cavs: LeBron, Shaq, Mo Williams, Jamison
Lakers: Kobe, Pau, Bynum, Odom
Mavs: Dirk, Kidd, JET, Butler
Nuggs: Melo, Billups, KMart, Nene or Smitty
Celtics: Pierce, KG, Ray Allen, Rondo
Magic: Howard, VC, Nelson, Lewis

The only teams that legitimately have a "big 4" out of those teams are LA and Orlando..

You don't need a "big 4", you just need to build a team properly..

[EricB]

@ Mo Williams considered a "big 4"

[SenorSpur]

You do realize RJ is the fourth leading scorer on the team. He is averaging more points than the our fourth leading scorer last year plus is getting more rebounds, assists and steals than either Mase or Finley last year.

As far as done being a contender there are only several teams a year that have a legitimate chance and I think the Spurs can compete with most of these teams. We have a deep bench (if not the best bench in the league) and while Duncan, Manu and Parker are not having 2007-type year they are still one of the best trios in the league. With the addition of Splitter next year we will have 3 solid bigs and Blair that is not quite a 'big' but sure does play like one. This Spurs team is solid for the next couple of years.

As Ruff said in his earlier post, the Spurs are done as a contender. Today's events, or should I say the lack thereof, certainly indicate that. The best the Spurs can hope for is to stay mediocre for the remaining years of the Duncan era, which isn't the best strategy either. Had the Spurs been able to secure that young, athletic PF (Thomas), or perhaps consummated the Dice trade into some other trade assets or draft picks, this would've better positioned them for an accelerated rebuild effort.

I guess it's shocking for Pop, RC and others to admit it, but the run is really over. As I've said before in other threads, the quicker one comes to the realization of who and what you are, the quicker issues can get remedied. By the same token, the longer you deny that that you're sick, the longer it's going to take getting well. If they haven't done so already, Pop and RC need to face facts. Some of us fans should do the same.

[SenorSpur]

Pops needs to talk to Houston bout how to biuld for the future........guys just stole Martin, Hill and 2 first round picks for a washed up never was! Hats off to all the Rockets fans here........wish the spurs were as ballzee as the Rockets FO!

Morey was an absolute wizard in the way that he parlayed McGrady's expiring contract. He literally manipulated and screwed over the Knicks. Now, the Rockets have a stocked cupboard of assets for the future. Now that's how you work it.

[ElNono]

As Ruff said in his earlier post, the Spurs are done as a contender. Today's events, or should I say the lack thereof, certainly indicate that. The best the Spurs can hope for is to stay mediocre for the remaining years of the Duncan era, which isn't the best strategy either. Had the Spurs been able to secure that young, athletic PF (Thomas), or perhaps consummated the Dice trade into some other trade assets or draft picks, this would've better positioned them for an accelerated rebuild effort.

I guess it's shocking for Pop, RC and others to admit it, but the run is really over. As I've said before in other threads, the quicker one comes to the realization of who and what you are, the quicker issues can get remedied. By the same token, the longer you deny that that you're sick, the longer it's going to take getting well. If they haven't done so already, Pop and RC need to face facts. Some of us fans should do the same.

I also don't understand why you would stick with a group that admittedly is not listening to you anymore. I mean, either step down, or at least stir the pot a bit and see if you can get their attention. This deadline has been so puzzling...

[spurtech09]

spurs have the pieces to win...now add Ian to the starting line up

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

As Ruff said in his earlier post, the Spurs are done as a contender. Today's events, or should I say the lack thereof, certainly indicate that. The best the Spurs can hope for is to stay mediocre for the remaining years of the Duncan era, which isn't the best strategy either. Had the Spurs been able to secure that young, athletic PF (Thomas), or perhaps consummated the Dice trade into some other trade assets or draft picks, this would've better positioned them for an accelerated rebuild effort.

I guess it's shocking for Pop, RC and others to admit it, but the run is really over. As I've said before in other threads, the quicker one comes to the realization of who and what you are, the quicker issues can get remedied. By the same token, the longer you deny that that you're sick, the longer it's going to take getting well. If they haven't done so already, Pop and RC need to face facts. Some of us fans should do the same.

Totally. The denial is astounding. I guess it is partly generated by Tim though in that no-one wants to have that ugly conversation with him where they have to ask him to "take one for the team" and help to develop the next wave of Spurs without much hope of contending. But really, what it the other option? Continue to be stuck in a mediocre limbo while you pretend the team is still a contender? Not in my world.

Morey was an absolute wizard in the way that he parlayed McGrady's expiring contract. He literally manipulated and screwed over the Knicks. Now, the Rockets have a stocked cupboard of assets for the future. Now that's how you work it.

Absolutely. Yet we stood pat. Astounding.

[timtonymanu]

Keep TP (if he doesnt play every summer), Hill, Blair, and Malik for the future.

For now, keep Tim, Manu, Tony, Hill, Blair, and Malik.

This summer the Spurs should just rebuild. By that I mean picking up young players. Not making majority of the signings old guys.

[spurtech09]

what future....pop is going to be playing small ball intill he retires...might as well fire pop

[MaNu4Tres]

The problem with the Big 3 is that having 3 is not enough anymore. You really need a Big 4 or 5 to contend right now:

Spurs haven't had the "Big 3" all year.

They all decide to show up at different times of the year. I have yet to see one game where Duncan, Parker and Manu were clicking on all cylinders.

Beginning of the year Manu was struggling out of the gate because of injury, Duncan was playing lights out, Parker was inconsistent and progressively got dinged up more and more.

The start of January Manu started turning the corner. Same time Duncan started losing his mobility little by little and became less and less effective offensively. By this time Parker is playing on one leg.

As I said and I'll say it again.... It hasn't been the "Big 3" all year.

[ulosturedge]

Should have been working Mahinmi and Hairston into the system since the beginning of the season. It's obvious the team as it is right now has zero chance of winning a championship. The days where you could surround the "big 3" with role players are long over. The "big 3" need to be surrounded by all young athletic players if at all possible. Our defense was atrocious tonight. Either our vets don't have the legs to keep up, or our youth lacks the size. Something needs to change..

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

Should have been working Mahinmi and Hairston into the system since the beginning of the season (1). It's obvious the team as it is right now has zero chance of winning a championship. The days where you could surround the "big 3" with role players are long over. The "big 3" need to be surrounded by all young athletic players if at all possible (2). Our defense was atrocious tonight. Either our vets don't have the legs to keep up, or our youth lacks the size. Something needs to change..

(1) I agree and said as much at the start of the season. Play the youth!

(2) Ditto. The NBA is now an athletes' league. Time we caught up with that.

[rascal]

Please stop dreamin'

This year is our last chance without rebuild.

TD isnt 30.Manu isnt an all star anymore and he could go.Tony is young but his legs have a lot of miles.He never was as good to be the leader of a championship team.

Hairston? Ian? Splitter?? C'mon....we will be the same team or worse than now.That's not enough.

This team is done.Dont try to add role players.We need main stars.

Splitter? Here we go again banking on foreign players that may not even be with the team.

This is not for you J Patches but for those banking on Splitter turning the team around next year.

[Mr Bones]

I know this won't be popular, but I'll say it anyway: as much as I love Blair's hustle and heart, I think the Spurs should entertain the idea of trading him this summer, while his reputation and value are high, to get maximum value in return. The idea behind taking him was that he probably wouldn't have a long career because of his knees, but would help immediately and possibly for a few years.... and judging by the contract he signed, I don't think he believes he'll be playing forever either. If Splitter comes next year and a Blair trade brings another quality player with good size for his position, I think that would address the obvious shortcomings (no pun intended) of this team. As much as I like the guy, I just don't think you look to the future with a 6'6" PF.

[SCdac]

I know this won't be popular, but I'll say it anyway: as much as I love Blair's hustle and heart, I think the Spurs should entertain the idea of trading him this summer, while his reputation and value are high, to get maximum value in return. The idea behind taking him was that he probably wouldn't have a long career because of his knees, but would help immediately and possibly for a few years.... and judging by the contract he signed, I don't think he believes he'll be playing forever either. If Splitter comes next year and a Blair trade brings another quality player with good size for his position, I think that would address the obvious shortcomings (no pun intended) of this team. As much as I like the guy, I just don't think you look to the future with a 6'6" PF.

Change that "PF" in the last sentence to "C", and I completely agree with you. He can be the lone big for 2-3 minutes, but if the Spurs intend on Blair being a full-blown center, in a small ball oriented lineup (see: SAS vs. LAL when late in the game Gasol grabs multiple offensive boards against a Blair, Jefferson, and Finley frontcourt), then I actually wouldn't be opposed to "selling him high" and getting a franchise player out of him (not Amare). However, I do think and hope Blair has a semi-permanent place on this team as a power forward, like say Milsap alongside Boozer and Okur, or Rose alongside Duncan and Robinson. He's undersized, but playing against other PF's, he's height isn't as exposed, and his athleticism isn't below-average (he got a steal, ran the floor, and busted out a reverse layup in Philly)... What about his contract suggests our FO fully expects him to have a short career? I thought his contract was comparable to a late first-rounders. Taj Gibson seems to make only 200K more per this year and next, with team options for the next two like Blair's contract. Jon Brockman the 38th pick is making less than 500K on a one-year contract in Sacramento. I think the FO definitely addressed the "steal" we got in Blair and tied him up accordingly (getting some of the MLE money).

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

Last two posts both make good points.

I was hoping for people to throw up a bunch of young, promising fringe pkayers that we should be targetting for our rebuild. Ideas anyone?

[The Truth #6]

Well it was a good run. I don't think Pop is planning on tanking 'till the end of the season. The team is still sort of trying but they have no chemistry and everyone looks tired. I don't think we're going to make the playoffs if we continue to play like we have the last 2 games.

As for facing facts and rebuilding, I don't think they're going to change anything until the Summer, and probably not then either. They're probably focused on what offer to make to Manu - not what direction should we go next. If Tony plays for the NT, then they should trade him but I doubt we'll trade him but I don't doubt he'll play for the NT.

Basically I see more denial ahead. The elephant in the room is, as others have mentioned, no one wants to tell Tim that the window has closed. Nor does Pop want to admit it. He'll probably ride the Big 3 into his retirement. At least that's my guess.

[venitian navigator]

Next season could be the "sell everything" season for more than one reason :

1) Timmy will be 35 with another two years of contract, the last being 20 million dollars;
2) Parker playing for his national team in summer;
3) Manu one year older but comung after a more than decent year that proved he's still healthy enough to contribute for a contender, and with the last chance to be traded, better sign and traded, for the best of Spurs;
4) Jefferson expiring contract and Mc Dyess quasi-expiring contract;
5) we will have no young asset with decent nba experience except for Hill (possibly for a starting role) and Blair (necessarrly for a reserve role for all his career)...and little young asset at all.....apart our first and second draft choice, Hairston (they could finally decide to give him a real chance and he's already under contract) and maybe Splitter (if he decides to sign with us) and maybe maybe Mahinmi (if the real plan was to hide him considering his potential to sign him to a contract a la Blair...).

The only point will be to ask to Timmy if he prefer to be a Spurs for life and be the menthor for the re-building of the team (a thing that would be only beneficial for his career) or wants to be traded to another team, possibly a future contender...

[TJastal]

Next season could be the "sell everything" season for more than one reason :

1) Timmy will be 35 with another two years of contract, the last being 20 million dollars;
2) Parker playing for his national team in summer;
3) Manu one year older but comung after a more than decent year that proved he's still healthy enough to contribute for a contender, and with the last chance to be traded, better sign and traded, for the best of Spurs;
4) Jefferson expiring contract and Mc Dyess quasi-expiring contract;
5) we will have no young asset with decent nba experience except for Hill (possibly for a starting role) and Blair (necessarrly for a reserve role for all his career)...and little young asset at all.....apart our first and second draft choice, Hairston (they could finally decide to give him a real chance and he's already under contract) and maybe Splitter (if he decides to sign with us) and maybe maybe Mahinmi (if the real plan was to hide him considering his potential to sign him to a contract a la Blair...).

The only point will be to ask to Timmy if he prefer to be a Spurs for life and be the menthor for the re-building of the team (a thing that would be only beneficial for his career) or wants to be traded to another team, possibly a future contender...

I think Timmy would still be hugely valuable and productive for another 3-4years in the right situation. He is slowing down considerably (and never was that fast to begin with) but still uses smarts and that long lean, tough body to rebound but his shotblocking and presence around the rim is in rapid decline.

Tyrus Thomas was the perfect big man to pair up and help shore his weaknesses with, and the spurs let him slip through their fingers. Dumping Ratliff was just the icing on the cake of stupidity.


that is smart enough to put the right type of players around him. Which would be young athletic types like Tyrus Thomas or

[hsxvvd]

Cavs: LeBron, Shaq, Mo Williams, Jamison
Lakers: Kobe, Pau, Bynum, Odom
Mavs: Dirk, Kidd, JET, Butler
Nuggs: Melo, Billups, KMart, Nene or Smitty
Celtics: Pierce, KG, Ray Allen, Rondo
Magic: Howard, VC, Nelson, Lewis

Very few teams have a big 4. All the above are questionable.

Tim and Tony are our big 2. Manu, are a long step from them.

No different to the Jazz with DWill and Boozer, Roy and Aldridge on the Blazers, Bosh & Turkey glue.

The only difference is our experience might get us over the hump, Manu, RJ, Hill, Blair, McDyess are all capable of turning it on in the playoffs.

But so too could Okur or Kirilenko, Camby or Miller, Bargnani or Calderon.