Some changes for america's health care, my opinion

[SouthernFried]

Un ingbelievable.

Too many idiots don't understand how free markets work, and despise them all in the same breath.

This is what Free Markets do...

In England and France...where there is socialized "universal" care, the average wait time for a Knee replacement is 2-3 YEARS.

In the US, with a more free market...the average wait time for a Knee replacement is 2-3 WEEKS.

This is what Free Markets do. It makes things BETTER.

And yes...even for the poor.

Everyone is treated like the poor in England and France...lol

[ElNono]

Un ingbelievable.

Too many idiots don't understand how free markets work, and despise them all in the same breath.

This is what Free Markets do...

In England and France...where there is socialized "universal" care, the average wait time for a Knee replacement is 2-3 YEARS.

In the US, with a more free market...the average wait time for a Knee replacement is 2-3 WEEKS.

This is what Free Markets do. It makes things BETTER.

And yes...even for the poor.

Everyone is treated like the poor in England and France...lol

What you forgot to mention is that if you can afford it, you can always buy private insurance (at least in France, where private insurance is alive and well) and shortcut those times.

I know. My father is 80 years old, and has anium replacement on both knees. He pays U$S 30/month for a family plan, provided by the British Hospital. His wait time? 4 weeks. He did have to pay U$S 1000 for each prosthesis. But the surgery and post-op where all covered.

And he isn't in England or France... he's in a third world country.

So, anecdotes are all fine and dandy. But they're just that. The reality is that for people that CANNOT afford it, over there they eventually can have a solution without going bankrupt. Over here? If you can't afford it, then forget about walking... or save enough money to go do it over there...

[boutons_deux]

SF: "Free Markets"



Markets concentrated into 3 or fewer suppliers per area(state) are not free. They are non-compe ive cartels, and the vast majority of their revenues are from employer group plans where the customer doesn't choose his plan, his employer chooses. And if the employer offers any choice of group plans, the choice is only those insurance companies in the employer's state.

The solution to patients covering the 20% excessive overheads (beyond the 5% overhead of medicare) is offer Medicare as a public insurance option.

This will allow all people to have cheaper insurance and access to care, saving 10s of 1000s of lives (8000 babies/year?), and $Bs in care-too-late to currently uninsured patients.

For profit-insurance companies will be forced to shrink to "top up" insurance for people who have the public option but can afford to pay insurance for non-Medicare-covered expenses (similar to HSA and FSA).

The Repug lie of allowing insurance companies to cross state lines as a means to reduce costs will cause the companies to choose the states where the terms are WORST for the patients, just like credit card companies locate in states with the WORST/usurious interest/penalty rates. As always, Repugs are business-friendly and consumer/citizen-unfriendly, behind smokescreens of "free market", "freedom", etc, etc.

Selling health insurance across state lines also undercuts/neuters state insurance regulators, another Repug goal (no govt regulation = promote the corps = the citizen), where business-friendly Repug policies screw over the customer by removing regulatory protection of the customer in his adversarial battle with insurance companies.

[SouthernFried]

What you forgot to mention is that if you can afford it, you can always buy private insurance (at least in France, where private insurance is alive and well) and shortcut those times.

I know. My father is 80 years old, and has anium replacement on both knees. He pays U$S 30/month for a family plan, provided by the British Hospital. His wait time? 4 weeks. He did have to pay U$S 1000 for each prosthesis. But the surgery and post-op where all covered.

And he isn't in England or France... he's in a third world country.

So, anecdotes are all fine and dandy. But they're just that. The reality is that for people that CANNOT afford it, over there they eventually can have a solution without going bankrupt. Over here? If you can't afford it, then forget about walking... or save enough money to go do it over there...

Since you gave an anecdote...then demeaned anecdotes...I'll give you one. Then I'll demean them after.

I was born and Raised in England. My family lives there. My grandmother died of skin cancer that is treated like an outpatient service in the US. Skin cancer is one of the most cureable cancers in the US. Because she was over 75...they didn't even try to cure it. They gave her morphine derivitives to deal with the pain.

I have an uncle who needed knee replacement surgery (which is why I used that example above)...he was on a waiting list of 26 months.

We brought him to the US and he got his knee replaced in 2 weeks, then went through 2 months of PT here.

I have uncles, cousins, freinds of the family, etc...all have horror stories of long waits and terrible service. I could go on all day here. Needless to say...every one of them warns all of us "across the pond"...DO NOT GO THERE! Stay away from socialized medicine.

They do say they love the fact that the department will send nurses over daily to see how your doing...lol

nice touch.

And you can keep it.

Of course...this is all anectdotal...means nothing. I'm sure govt run healthcare is just great.

...and it's free, right?

SIG

[ElNono]

Since you gave an anecdote...then demeaned anecdotes...I'll give you one. Then I'll demean them after.

I was born and Raised in England. My family lives there. My grandmother died of skin cancer that is treated like an outpatient service in the US. Skin cancer is one of the most cureable cancers in the US. Because she was over 75...they didn't even try to cure it. They gave her morphine derivitives to deal with the pain.

I have an uncle who needed knee replacement surgery (which is why I used that example above)...he was on a waiting list of 26 months.

We brought him to the US and he got his knee replaced in 2 weeks, then went through 2 months of PT here.

I have uncles, cousins, freinds of the family, etc...all have horror stories of long waits and terrible service. I could go on all day here. Needless to say...every one of them warns all of us "across the pond"...DO NOT GO THERE! Stay away from socialized medicine.

They do say they love the fact that the department will send nurses over daily to see how your doing...lol

nice touch.

And you can keep it.

Of course...this is all anectdotal...means nothing. I'm sure govt run healthcare is just great.

...and it's free, right?

SIG

I'm glad you could afford taking care of your uncle. I'm sure it wasn't cheap, but that's exactly what the business of healthcare is, isn't it?. Praying on the desperate.
Ultimately, that's exactly what's this about. If you have the means, then there's nothing stopping you for seeking the best possible treatment. And that's what I mean by anecdotal.
There's a lot less fortunate people that would be pretty excited to be on a waiting list for knee replacement, because right now they simply cannot afford it, and there's no list they can be in.
I personally went through the experience of not being able to afford certain treatment. Insurance simply used a loophole to deny coverage. It would have been awesome to know that, even if I waited, I would have received the treatment. I was fortunate enough to have family in another country where they researched for me, gave me and my wife a place to stay, and received the exact same treatment at a fraction of the cost, even though I paid out of pocket and including plane tickets.
I really don't wish anybody to feel the way we did back then. And I know there's a lot of people that are not as fortunate as we are to have an affordable alternative somewhere else.

I'm not a proponent of public option only. I want a mixed system. If you want and can afford better treatment, then by all means I think you should.
But there's no safety net for those that can't right now. And I personally think that's very wrong.

[SouthernFried]

I'm glad you could afford taking care of your uncle. I'm sure it wasn't cheap, but that's exactly what the business of healthcare is, isn't it?. Praying on the desperate.
Ultimately, that's exactly what's this about. If you have the means, then there's nothing stopping you for seeking the best possible treatment. And that's what I mean by anecdotal.
There's a lot less fortunate people that would be pretty excited to be on a waiting list for knee replacement, because right now they simply cannot afford it, and there's no list they can be in.
I personally went through the experience of not being able to afford certain treatment. Insurance simply used a loophole to deny coverage. It would have been awesome to know that, even if I waited, I would have received the treatment. I was fortunate enough to have family in another country where they researched for me, gave me and my wife a place to stay, and received the exact same treatment at a fraction of the cost, even though I paid out of pocket and including plane tickets.
I really don't wish anybody to feel the way we did back then. And I know there's a lot of people that are not as fortunate as we are to have an affordable alternative somewhere else.

I'm not a proponent of public option only. I want a mixed system. If you want and can afford better treatment, then by all means I think you should.
But there's no safety net for those that can't right now. And I personally think that's very wrong.

You keep giving anecdotal stuff...lol.

Ok, then.

What does it matter what it costs...if you can't get it? You can offer free healthcare all you want, but will you get the treatment?

I'll give you another anecdote, just to keep up.

My mother was diagnosed with Shingles while she was in England taking care of her mother. It aggravated her Emphysema. They sent a nurse around every day to give her oxygen. Very nice of them. She saw a doctor once, and he recommended the nurse come around with Oxygen once a day. They don't offer the wide array of drugs to increase lung functions we have in the US. She liked having the nurse there every day tho. She passed away not long after her mother did.

Did you know that you have to be Licensed by the Department of Health and Safety to be a Pall bearer in England?

I didn't know that.

There isn't one person I know of, in all of my extended family, who thinks Englands health care is better than the US's. Not one.

They love England, they love the Queen. They absolutely hate what England has become. Basically a third world country, who's biggest source of income...is tourism. People coming by to see what England used to be.

This is what socialism does. It destroys. It saps productivity, industry...and it's biggest attribute is not sharing the wealth, but sharing the misery.

Anyone who thinks govt should run healthcare, or provide a "public" option...is out of their ing minds. You may think your getting something for free, but what really is happening is your destroying whatever chance for a better life for children.

If you don't have children, and really don't care about a future, and want something right now for yourself, then you support this abomination.

If you have children, look to England and France. Look ing closely, it's not a pretty sight...and that is what your trying to give them.

America was created to be something better.

[Oh, Gee!!]

miamiheat is a mouse alter-ego, so take his political advice with a grain of salt

[MiamiHeat]

miamiheat is a mouse alter-ego, so take his political advice with a grain of salt

no, I am a legitimate poster on this forum. I don't live anywhere near mouse

I am getting tired of people accusing me of being someone else.

I have been posting here for 2 years now, get with the program.

and lastly

it doesn't matter if MC Hammer himself comes out of retirement and gives political advice.

If the advice is good, it's good, no matter who says it

[ElNono]

You keep giving anecdotal stuff...lol.

Ok, then.

What does it matter what it costs...if you can't get it? You can offer free healthcare all you want, but will you get the treatment?

I'll give you another anecdote, just to keep up.

My mother was diagnosed with Shingles while she was in England taking care of her mother. It aggravated her Emphysema. They sent a nurse around every day to give her oxygen. Very nice of them. She saw a doctor once, and he recommended the nurse come around with Oxygen once a day. They don't offer the wide array of drugs to increase lung functions we have in the US. She liked having the nurse there every day tho. She passed away not long after her mother did.

Did you know that you have to be Licensed by the Department of Health and Safety to be a Pall bearer in England?

I didn't know that.

There isn't one person I know of, in all of my extended family, who thinks Englands health care is better than the US's. Not one.

They love England, they love the Queen. They absolutely hate what England has become. Basically a third world country, who's biggest source of income...is tourism. People coming by to see what England used to be.

This is what socialism does. It destroys. It saps productivity, industry...and it's biggest attribute is not sharing the wealth, but sharing the misery.

Anyone who thinks govt should run healthcare, or provide a "public" option...is out of their ing minds. You may think your getting something for free, but what really is happening is your destroying whatever chance for a better life for children.

If you don't have children, and really don't care about a future, and want something right now for yourself, then you support this abomination.

If you have children, look to England and France. Look ing closely, it's not a pretty sight...and that is what your trying to give them.

America was created to be something better.

For every anecdote you give me, I can give you one back. That's why it's fairly irrelevant. There's also the fact that the US doesn't have to adopt the UK system. They can just as easily adopt a mixed system like Japan, France or Italy.

You don't have to tell me what third world country healthcare looks like. I was born and lived in a third world country half of my life. When your options are third world healthcare or no healthcare at all, then third world healthcare looks incredibly good, even with all of it's shortcomings.

You also fail to say what is that 'something better' that America is supposed to be. What is it? One of the most expensive healthcare systems in the world? Top notch medicine for the wealthy?

[boutons_deux]

"govt should run healthcare"

You Lie. But that's the primary tactic You People use.

England (like Italy and other Mediterranean countries) is very, very bad in systemic thinking and execution.

Saying England's govt-run health care (hospitals, nurses, doctors are govt employees in a huge bureaucracy with England's bloody-minded approach to unions (ie, class warfare)) is what will happen to USA if the US govt offers (ONLY!) a government/public insurance option (all hospitals, nurses, doctors remain private employees, UNCHANGED) is an OUTRIGHT LIE, PURE DISINFORMATION.

You Lie. But that's the primary tactic You People use.

btw, self-inflicted disease (and medical costs) from bad food, overweight, obesity, unfitness in England are nearly as bad as USA, (and let's not even mention the disastrous Scots). There, both countries are the Biggest Losers.

[Wild Cobra]

Litigation costs and 'defensive medicine' only costs less than 5 billion in the US. That's less than half of one percent of the industry costs, which is in the trillions.

I don't believe that figure. If I'm wrong, then fine. However, the problem is not the health insurance providers either. They have a 75%+ efficiency of returning the dollars they collect to medical professionals. Do you really think the government can do better?

What about regulations. Have a number of how much our regulations cause more cost for the services than in other countries?

[boutons_deux]

"I don't believe that figure. If I'm wrong, then fine"

Of course you don't. Facts contradict fatally your ideology, and that's fine.

"They have a 75%+ efficiency of returning the dollars they collect to medical professionals."

iow, 20% - 30% of revenue is lost to private insurer's overheads (mega salaries, shareholder dividends, profits, bureaucracy)

"Do you really think the government can do better?"

Medicare, Medicaid have 5% overheads. VA is probably down there, too.

That's why Repugs had to give $50B subsidy to private insurers to entice them into Medicare Advantage and into competing with much more efficient Medicare.

Ideology makes Stupid.

[Wild Cobra]

"I don't believe that figure. If I'm wrong, then fine"

Of course you don't. Facts contradict fatally your ideology, and that's fine.

"They have a 75%+ efficiency of returning the dollars they collect to medical professionals."

iow, 20% - 30% of revenue is lost to private insurer's overheads (mega salaries, shareholder dividends, profits, bureaucracy)

"Do you really think the government can do better?"

Medicare, Medicaid have 5% overheads. VA is probably down there, too.

That's why Repugs had to give $50B subsidy to private insurers to entice them into Medicare Advantage and into competing with much more efficient Medicare.

Ideology makes Stupid.

25% or less by health care corporation is money that doesn't make it to the doctors and hospitals. 25% is about the poorest performance I say when looking. Somewhere around 9% is profits, somewhere around 7% taxes. That leaves somewhere around 9% or less in wages, utilities, leases, advertising, etc.

Medicare may only have a 5% overhead, but the lack of accountability causes a large amount lost in fraud. Funny how the government wants to take over the health care industry, but I wonder if they ever consider their losses in tax revenues from taxing the corporations, dividends, and capitol gains.

Be a Socialist/Marxist if you wish but leave me out. Move to Canada, Germany, England, etc. if you don't like what America offers. I believe in a smaller government and a free nation. Not you ideals of Corporatism.

[Duff McCartney]

I believe in a smaller government and a free nation.

Good then I think we should slash the defense budget in half. Smaller government.

Regarding British healthcare it's not perfect. Nobody here is arguing that the healthcare system in any country is perfect, but they still make it work. I think we should have a German system of healthcare where people who decide not to have public health care don't have to.

Britain has introduced reforms in the past ten years to reduce the waiting times on elected procedures. Even the most outspoken UK politicians against socialized medicine would NEVER dream of doing away of NHS. even when they introduced some free market reforms for the NHS, people were protesting in the streets against it!

You may say that the healthcare is terrible and blah blah, but the numbers don't lie and the rankings don't lie. It's no coincidence that many European nations consistently are ranked near the top of health rankings in the world.

As far as waiting for an elective procedure the wait time may have been a year or two previously, but the reforms that the British have implemented have reduced them to 3 months maybe less than that. Besides I'd rather wait the three months than be here in the U.S. and have the procedure tomorrow and go bankrupt because I can't pay the bills.

[spursncowboys]

Good then I think we should slash the defense budget in half. Smaller government.

Regarding British healthcare it's not perfect. Nobody here is arguing that the healthcare system in any country is perfect, but they still make it work. I think we should have a German system of healthcare where people who decide not to have public health care don't have to.

Britain has introduced reforms in the past ten years to reduce the waiting times on elected procedures. Even the most outspoken UK politicians against socialized medicine would NEVER dream of doing away of NHS. even when they introduced some free market reforms for the NHS, people were protesting in the streets against it!

You may say that the healthcare is terrible and blah blah, but the numbers don't lie and the rankings don't lie. It's no coincidence that many European nations consistently are ranked near the top of health rankings in the world.

As far as waiting for an elective procedure the wait time may have been a year or two previously, but the reforms that the British have implemented have reduced them to 3 months maybe less than that. Besides I'd rather wait the three months than be here in the U.S. and have the procedure tomorrow and go bankrupt because I can't pay the bills.

How was Brittian able to have socialized medicine?
It was through America's Marshall plan. Since its inception it has never worked the way it was designed, planned or explained.

[ElNono]

How was Brittian able to have socialized medicine?

The British rolled out their healthcare system right from the ashes of World War II. It was arguably one of the most delicate times in that country's history. And they made it work. You could argue all you want about how effective or not it has been over time, but Duff is right that at this point nobody in their right mind is proposing doing away with it.

[spursncowboys]

The British rolled out their healthcare system right from the ashes of World War II. It was arguably one of the most delicate times in that country's history. And they made it work. You could argue all you want about how effective or not it has been over time, but Duff is right that at this point nobody in their right mind is proposing doing away with it.

But how did they bankroll it? Of course no politician can get rid of it. Someone else is paying for them to have free healthcare. Why are the dems ok with all their people losing elections? They know this will win them elections once people start becoming slaves to the state, errr I mean being helped by the state.

[Duff McCartney]

But how did they bankroll it? Of course no politician can get rid of it. Someone else is paying for them to have free healthcare. Why are the dems ok with all their people losing elections? They know this will win them elections once people start becoming slaves to the state, errr I mean being helped by the state.

What does it matter how they started it? They have it. It's irrelevant how it got started. I know how it is paid for..with taxes.

Nobody is becoming a slave to the state. Don't be stupid and start spouting off ad hominem statements that make no sense.

[spursncowboys]

What does it matter how they started it? They have it. It's irrelevant how it got started. I know how it is paid for..with taxes.

Nobody is becoming a slave to the state. Don't be stupid and start spouting off ad hominem statements that make no sense.

It matters because it got started from America. We started it. Has it ever been paid for??? No. It has not. Also the quality of it has done nothing but decline.
However are you saying America should mimic the UK health system or is this just a the have it, so I will build it up argument?

[Duff McCartney]

It matters because it got started from America. We started it. Has it ever been paid for??? No. It has not. Also the quality of it has done nothing but decline.
However are you saying America should mimic the UK health system or is this just a the have it, so I will build it up argument?

It didn't get started from America. That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. Besides what difference does it make? How is that relevant to the topic? Has it ever been paid for? What do you mean has it ever been paid for? You mean have they repaid their loans? I don't know.

The quality has done nothing but decline? Once again I ask where you are getting your information. As per usual I guess you're just pulling it out of your ass. Just making general statements that have no weight behind them.

[ElNono]

But how did they bankroll it?

What does that matter? Do you see the Chinese coming over and telling you how to run the wars they are and have been bankrolling?

Would you actually be OK with that? They're bankrolling our growing debt after all...

Of course no politician can get rid of it. Someone else is paying for them to have free healthcare. Why are the dems ok with all their people losing elections? They know this will win them elections once people start becoming slaves to the state, errr I mean being helped by the state.

You got the story wrong. There have been politicians waving the flag of partially privatizing it and making it more like the American system (something mentioned in this thread). The people do not want that. Even with the drawbacks, they rather keep the system they have. And they've taken to the street so politicians get the message loud and clear.

And please. The Brits are first in line whenever we start some stupid war somewhere. You simply cannot say that the US-UK partnership is a one way street.

[boutons_deux]

Ask any NHS-hating Brit if they'd swap NHS for the US health care fiasco. That poll has been done. Guess what they said?

Private insurance exists in parallel with national health systems. EVERYBODY pays from payroll directly into the national health insurance.

For those that are richer and better than the rest of us, they can buy private insurance and get treated by private docs in private hospitals and clinics.

[Wild Cobra]

Good then I think we should slash the defense budget in half. Smaller government.

If you want to cut the military budget, then why don't you propose drafting people into the military that are in social programs for extended periods. Make use of them instead of making them a drain ion the system.

please remember. A military is authorized by cons ution. Social programs aren't.

[boutons_deux]

"the government wants to take over the health care industry"

You Lie

[Wild Cobra]

"the government wants to take over the health care industry"

You Lie

Every bill congress has debated on has had provisions that would decimate the private health care system. We have talked about these. Sorry you are too stupid to make such connection.