I Want To Just Say There Is No Olympics MVP

[DAF86]

Challenging biased opinions regarding Manu in no way means I'm hating on Manu or that I don't like him.

How can you say that calling Manu the 2004 Olympics MVP is a biased opinion, when is registered in the two most important and OFFICIAL sites of basketball?

If you want, you can say that is bull that Manu got one when no other player got one before him, but the fact that he got it can't be disputed.

[JamStone]

How can you say that calling Manu the 2004 Olympics MVP is a biased opinion, when is registered in the two most important and OFFICIAL sites of basketball?

If you want, you can say that is bull that Manu got one when no other player got one before him, but the fact that he got it can't be disputed.

Well, that's not the only thing I'm challenging, but because I have yet to see where it's really an actual award, a trophy, real hardware rather than just a le, and it wasn't given by the Olympics (IOC).

It's like if FINA gave Michael Phelps the le "Greatest Summer Olympics Athlete Ever." It's a le. And if it's not from the Olympics, it's not an official award in my mind.

But again, that's not really the "biased" opinions I'm only challenging. This goes to the other thread in the Spurs section as well.

[urunobili]

Nope. Thanks for caring though. I'm not the one who started personal attacks. I've been staying on topic.

Not trolling. I'm trying to have real, genuine discussion. Perhaps others are, but I'm not. And not once have I tried to ruin Manu's reputation or my reputation as a fan of Manu. I've given perspective. I really and truly am a huge Manu fan. What I do like to challenge though is over-the-top bias.

In the thread in the Spurs section, I gave a pretty objective opinion. Some people took it as that. Others took it as me trying to bash Manu. I introduced Toni Kukoc into the discussion to bring some perspective to the opinion that Manu is a lock for the NBA. You can take it how you want to take it.

At the end of the day, I think Manu has a good chance at the HOF, but my personal opinion is that it's in no way a lock. Most believe who believe it's a lock believe it is based on his international resume. That's the point I tried to give perspective to. If that's the case, Toni Kukoc has every bit the international resume Manu has, arguably better. But when you think of Toni Kukoc, you don't think at the top of your head that he's a lock for the HOF. Hopefully for some, that brings a little perspective to what I feel is a pretty biased belief that Manu is a HOF lock. If it doesn't, so be it.

The Almost finals MVP bull you brought is both off topic and a trolling attempt.

[ElNono]

I don't know if there was a trophy in that specific case. I would have to ask.
I do know that FIBA in general does award an actual MVP trophy as part of the awards ceremony at the end of tournaments. IIRC, Scola received a trophy as MVP of the Tournament of the Americas in Vegas in 2007 during the awards ceremony.

[JamStone]

The Almost finals MVP bull you brought is both off topic and a trolling attempt.

It's in response to many arguments in the thread in the Spurs section who use that as an argument as to why Manu is a lock for the HOF. It's also a joke. It also has to do with Manu, which is on topic.

Your personal attack smelled of venom and was completely off topic. Not sure what the Pistons or LeBron James have to do with this topic in the slightest. But hey, it is what it is.

[urunobili]

It's in response to many arguments in the thread in the Spurs section who use that as an argument as to why Manu is a lock for the HOF. It's also a joke. It also has to do with Manu, which is on topic.

Your personal attack smelled of venom and was completely off topic. Not sure what the Pistons or LeBron James have to do with this topic in the slightest. But hey, it is what it is.

who started it then? I just reacted... you should have kept the almost Finals MVP bull on the other hof thread not on here though...

[JamStone]

who started it then? I just reacted... you should have kept the almost Finals MVP bull on the other hof thread not on here though...

Lol ummm ok.

[diego]

manu is so open that, one of the people that posts on his forum should ask him if there is a trophy or certificate. I dont see why that changes anything really. Its obvious that it was extremely unusual for him to recieve this distinction because there haven't been any olympic MVP's before or since. And as mogrojevo noted, FIBA is in charge of organizing the compe ion, not the IOC. I dont see why that would change the value of the award, in fact I would find it more suspiscous if the IOC gave an award for a FIBA organized tournament.

Jamstone is a good poster and has a long rep as a manu fan. I haven't found any of his argument to be offensive. Where I disagree is here:

1) He is minimizing the importance of beating the dream team. 20, 40, 100 years from now, when someone is looking at the history of basketball he will see that a US team of NBA players has only lost maybe 10, 15, 20 times, and that their first defeat in both major tournaments came at the hands of one player, manu ginobili, and that he was the first to win an olympic gold medal against them. Kukoc fans can argue he beat their amateur team, they can argue that he lost to their greatest team ever, it wont change the fact that his name won't come up in the "dream team losses" section of the basketball history books. It was that big of a deal. And if argentina had lost the final, the story would have been about how much the US sucked. But because they won the story was about manu "MVP" ginobili

2) He is assuming that Kukoc doesnt deserve to be in (or that other people think this way). Kukoc has a very good argument to get in. He is just as much of a legend as other europeans in the HOF. Its just that Manu had a better career, and in large part that was because of point 1.

So Kukoc has a good to great chance to get in, and Manu has a great to "lock" chance to get in.

[JamStone]

That's all well and good. I still want to see the actual hardware of this Olympic MVP. Show me and we're good.

1. When people look back to the 1988 Olympics, at least American and NBA fans, do we usually talk about how great that Russian team was? Rarely if ever. It's talked about how that was the last Team USA men's basketball team that was a team of amateurs and not NBA players. I think it's similar for 2004 in that way. Ginobili and Argentina won't be forgotten. Of course not. But, I think at least American fans will remember how bad that team was compared to the first 5-6 renditions (Olympic and World Championship teams) of the Dream Team were. They will remember how most of the best players aside from Duncan and Iverson didn't participate. Kobe in his prime, KG in his prime, T-Mac in his prime, Kidd, JO, Vince among others not participating. I think that will be remembered more, especially to American fans.

2. I don't assume Kukoc doesn't deserve to be in the HOF. That's not why I brought him up in the other thread. It's a rebuttal for the argument many posters made that Manu was a "lock" to be in the HOF. When people have made that argument, it's based on Manu's international resume. I've even read people on here agree that based on his NBA career, he wouldn't get in. Now if that's the argument, Kukoc has a similar argument for the HOF. But, when you think of Kukoc, do you say, "oh yeah, he's a lock for the HOF." Whether you think he has a chance or will, do you think he's a "lock?" That's my point.

I actually do think Kukoc has a chance at the HOF. Not a great chance, certainly not a lock. And, that's what I'm getting at with Manu. I even stated as much several times in the other thread. I think Manu has a good chance at the HOF. I don't think it's a lock.

[BadOdor]

Jam bukkaing over enraged manu knock slobber. manu>dirk lol.

[diego]

and that's why I say, that being the first to beat a dream team (no matter how bad), from a country that never was (and probably never again will be) a power house, is the magic ticket tipping the scales for manu in a way that Kukoc's Mr Europa awards don't.