The S of the Earth

[ElNono]

If you really want to solve this problem the best way to go about it to posiition the government as a viable oppositional force to the insurance companies, so that it might kick the out of them, as well as the lawyers, and doctors, and orther individuals, that artificially drive up the costs, instead of merging them into one gigantic en y with 4 of it's 5 fingers in our wallets.

Hit the nail in the head. Exactly the reason why nobody on either party really likes the monster they're about to pass.

[symple19]

Hit the nail in the head. Exactly the reason why nobody on either party really likes the monster they're about to pass.

Goddamn right.


Have you ever been in a government run program Whott?

The care I receive as a Vet from the VA has opened my eyes. I receive excellent care, and not just because I'm a Vet. The VA was abysmal in the past, but now it's rife with excellent doctors who are running wholesale from the same private system you are advocating.

Will it be perfect? No

Will it be better than the abomination we have now? Yes

So long as a new system (universal) allows for private practice to thrive based on the market then I see no reason not to enact it (a uni system)

[symple19]

And if somebody sees a more practical way to do it, then I'm all ears...

Yet all I hear is jackasses repeating the party lines.

Nobody wants to enact something that works, only something that will ensure that their "side" wins...

[whottt]

Then where's the thumb supposed to be, up the Tea Party's ass?

It's going to be up everybody's ass...and it's not a thumb..or a finger.

[whottt]

And if somebody sees a more practical way to do it, then I'm all ears...

Yet all I hear is jackasses repeating the party lines.

Nobody wants to enact something that works, only something that will ensure that their "side" wins...

The solution is simple...you, and I, need to stop asking the goverments, and the corporations, to do things for us. We are certainly allowed to organize ourselves in such a way that we can take matters into our own hands.

Don't like the high interest rates we are getting jacked with? Then simply stop paying our credit card bills.

Don't like insurance companies and their pilot fish driving the cost of everything up to the level we have to be indentured servants to pay for it? Stop paying for it.

Don't like those big greedy corporations? Stop supporting them.

We have a medium to organize such things now...it's called the internet. We keep expecting the problems to be the solution, and it will never happen.

Any time someone wants to organize a national don't pay your credit card month to the credit card companies over....consider me all in. You'll be amazed at how fast that battle ends.

There is one absolute that provides a light at the end of any governmental or corporate tunnel...

They can't throw us all in jail.

[ALWAYS bet on BLACK]

Nah, this will not be better than what we have right now.

It will be another US government up.

[baseline bum]

Hit the nail in the head. Exactly the reason why nobody on either party really likes the monster they're about to pass.

I'm not so sure the parties don't like it. I'm thinking Senator Nelson loves his big handout, for one. Now if you mean the voters aligned with either party, that I definitely see.

[boutons_deux]

"5-10 short points, what is wrong with the health care bill"

1. For the first time ever, citizens are forced, under threat of fines, to buy products from for-profit companies, forcing 30M+ citizens into the greedy, inefficient clutches of for-profit insurance companies. For the people too poor to pay exorbitant premiums, there are taxpayer-financed subsidies, which is simply continued fleecing of American taxpayers for corporate predators.

2. There is no single-buyer/single-payer.

3. There is no Medicare-for-all public insurance option.

4. There is no general thrust for reducing costs of the national health bill from the ever-increasing 16% of GDP, on average twice the cost in countries more intelligent, adult, and humane than USA.

5. There is no removal of the anti-trust exemption from for-profit insurers.

6. There is no introduction of real compe ion among for-profit insurers, and especially no compe ion from a public option insurance.

7. People on individual plans and clients of the exchanges have to pay for their insurance with after-tax earnings, while employees in employer group plans get mostly tax-free insurance (rather than salary). Employers get count the costs of group plans as a business expense.

But none of these are the primary reasons racist teabagging losing s and racist/obstructionist Repugs are against healthcare reform. The Repugs and their wealthy-financed Movement Conservative fellow travellers are reflexively, blindly objecting, along with outright lying, because it's progress by and a huge political win for the Dems. The Repugs are all about destroying the Dems for Repugs' political gain, no matter how much that destruction hurts America. They intend to "Waterloo" Magic Negro by defeating health care reform.

[George Gervin's Afro]

Seriously, if you think all tea party peeps are racist, you are one dumb mother er and a bigot.

you are one dumb motherf*cker

[Stringer_Bell]

"5-10 short points, what is wrong with the health care bill"

1. For the first time ever, citizens are forced, under threat of fines, to buy products from for-profit companies, forcing 30M+ citizens into the greedy, inefficient clutches of for-profit insurance companies. For the people too poor to pay exorbitant premiums, there are taxpayer-financed subsidies, which is simply continued fleecing of American taxpayers for corporate predators.

2. There is no single-buyer/single-payer.

3. There is no Medicare-for-all public insurance option.

4. There is no general thrust for reducing costs the national health bill from the ever-increasing 16% of GDP.

5. There is no removal of the anti-trust exemption from for-profit insurers.

6. There is no introduction of real compe ion among for-profit insurers, and especially no compe ion from a public option insurance.

They've talking about this day for over a year, and you'd think someone in that garbage can of a representative body would have tried to address the issues you listed. Just what have they been doing for a year other than figuring out who gets what deals and favors by passing what they've got instead of making it something worth the time and blood that's been shed while people wait for a bit of help?

I don't hide my affinity for Barry O, but I do hope this vote fails.

[George Gervin's Afro]

They've talking about this day for over a year, and you'd think someone in that garbage can of a representative body would have tried to address the issues you listed. Just what have they been doing for a year other than figuring out who gets what deals and favors by passing what they've got instead of making it something worth the time and blood that's been shed while people wait for a bit of help?

I don't hide my affinity for Barry O, but I do hope this vote fails.

what deals are you talking about?

[boutons_deux]

"tried to address the issues you listed"

As flawed as the bill is, it is (only) a huge step to eventually addressing all the absent improvements.

The only way to get anything done is by terribly compromising with AMA, doctors, for-profit health insurers, BigPharma, all of whom have captured the legislative and regulatory process. A direct, one-step assault on those gangsters probably would have gotten MN assassinated (which is still a possibility. After all, this is America and everything is solved by killing someone)

Accomplishing nothing by attacking the costs (ie, their revenues) represented by those health care actors would have been worse, as Magic Negro has repeated many times.

Compared to doing nothing, there are still many excellent points in the health bill, but like any highly processed, industrial meat-like commercial sausage, it's also full of .

The perfect (or even something approaching health care in other developed countries) can't be the enemy of any progress.

I'm sure Kucinich was bought off by a MN promise that a public option is next up, along with annulling the Repugs' unfunded gifts to industry of forbidding single-buyer, and the wasteful Medicare Advantage.

[balli]

Probably not the most productive response to an article that seemingly advocates for an increase in civility and intelligent political discourse.

Civility is hardly my goal. Nor is turning the other cheek. There was a time not too long ago in which I might have believed these evil morons were worth the effort of such overtures, but I'm past the point where I think civility or reason have any sway, whatsoever, over such ilk as the dead ender/tea bagging crowd. Reality and courtesy are now a lost cause and I shouldn't have ever thought otherwise actually.

The only effort these people are worth is that which ruins their nights and wastes their time; i.e. by calling them out as the vermin they are; judging by the 3 pages and whottt's participation, it looks like it worked.

[Stringer_Bell]

what deals are you talking about?

All the haggling that goes on for "crucial" votes. There's negative and positive deals going on such as "vote for this bill and we'll see about making XX a priority" or "if you don't vote for this bill, don't ask for help during re-election"...you know, all the that happens in Model United Nations conferences except here it's real life. The TV is my source for all my information because I'm too lazy to read, but I'm sure it's just a google away if you want to go through the trouble.

With all the secret talks and such going on, it's conceivable (while NEVER acceptable) that " got" and "######" would be launched at representatives that angry crowds don't think are listening to them or answering to criticism. It's a democracy lyke c'mon now.

[George Gervin's Afro]

All the haggling that goes on for "crucial" votes. There's negative and positive deals going on such as "vote for this bill and we'll see about making XX a priority" or "if you don't vote for this bill, don't ask for help during re-election"...you know, all the that happens in Model United Nations conferences except here it's real life. The TV is my source for all my information because I'm too lazy to read, but I'm sure it's just a google away if you want to go through the trouble.

I aksed you the question because most of the 'deals' that we hear about aren't actually that special. In fact a few of the most mentioned were decided on prior to any voting taking place and would have happened without healthcare reform. It's disingenous to keep repeating about these 'special deals' when they aren't. When you are in an argument and you have to use half truths and knowable falsehoods, how strong is your argument? That's all I'm saying.. I'm not trying to indict you for spreading untruths rather just letting you know that you shouldn't always believe what you hear..

[Stringer_Bell]

I aksed you the question because most of the 'deals' that we hear about aren't actually that special. In fact a few of the most mentioned were decided on prior to any voting taking place and would have happened without healthcare reform. It's disingenous to keep repeating about these 'special deals' when they aren't. When you are in an argument and you have to use half truths and knowable falsehoods, how strong is your argument? That's all I'm saying.. I'm not trying to indict you for spreading untruths rather just letting you know that you shouldn't always believe what you hear..

You're probably right, but I still don't like the impression that ANY vote is being bought on either side for ANYTHING when its related to such an important issue. I'm sure it's happened before and it'll happen again, but names should be named each time. That's why I like Faux News and the channel that shows To Catch A Predator because they like to name names.

[boutons_deux]

SUNDAY 21 MARCH 2010
Revamped Health Care Bill Has Nine Major Changes

Saturday 20 March 2010

by: Julie Appleby and Mary Agnes Carey | Kaiser Health News

In their attempt to pass a sweeping health care overhaul this weekend, Democrats in the House of Representatives are pushing a package of legislative revisions to lure undecided or opposed members of their party to the "yes" category.

Proposed changes to the health care bill that the Senate passed include a scaled-back tax on high-cost health insurance plans — a provision that's widely unpopular with House Democrats — and more money to help states pay for an expansion of Medicaid, the state-federal health program for poor people and those with disabilities.

The new measure, called a reconciliation bill, also would take additional steps to close a gap in Medicare prescription-drug coverage and to help low- and middle-income Americans purchase health insurance through new insurance exchanges.

If the House approves it Sunday, the Senate would consider the package under a process that would require just 51 votes for passage rather than the 60-vote threshold to break a filibuster. President Barack Obama has postponed a scheduled trip to Asia to be in town to help persuade wavering Democrats to vote for the bill.

A preliminary estimate Thursday from the Congressional Budget Office concluded that the compromise bill would reduce the federal budget deficit by $138 billion over the next decade, a finding that may help House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, D-Calif., and her leadership team fight charges from Republicans, who say the bill is too big and too expensive and would disrupt the current health care system.

Here are some of the major changes the reconciliation proposal would make to the Senate bill:

HEFTIER SUBSIDIES: Compared with the Senate legislation, the reconciliation bill would provide more generous subsidies to low- and moderate-income Americans to help them buy coverage.

THE "MASERATI" TAX: The levy on high-cost insurance plans is scaled back and delayed, rendering it more a "Maserati" than a "Cadillac" tax. It would apply only to the portion of plans that cost more than $10,200 a year for individuals, up from $8,500, and $27,500 for families, up from $23,000. The tax wouldn't kick in until 2018, reducing the projected revenue to the government by 80 percent. Over time, however, the tax would hit more and more plans, because its threshold is set to increase at the rate of inflation, while premiums are expected to continue to grow much more quickly than that.

CLOSING THE "DOUGHNUT HOLE": Unlike the Senate bill, the reconciliation measure eventually would close the coverage gap, called the "doughnut hole," for Medicare beneficiaries who are enrolled in Part D drug plans. Currently, seniors who hit the gap then must bear the full cost of their medications until they spend a certain amount, when coverage kicks back in.

Under the new bill, seniors who hit the gap this year would get $250 each to help cover the costs of their medications. Starting next year, they'd get 50 percent discounts on brand-name drugs, with the cost borne by the drug industry. In subsequent years, the discounts would expand and begin covering generic drugs, with the government picking up the expense. By 2020, the discounts would reach 75 percent.

SHIFT IN MEDICARE ADVANTAGE PAYOUTS: Government payments to Medicare Advantage, the private-health plan alternative to traditional Medicare, would be cut back more steeply than under the Senate bill: $132 billion over 10 years, compared with $118 billion.

The government currently pays the private plans an average of 14 percent more than it does traditional Medicare. The new bill, besides reducing payments overall, would shift the funding; some high-cost areas would be paid 5 percent below traditional Medicare, while some lower-cost areas would be paid 15 percent more than traditional Medicare. The Senate's plan that would have shielded some areas of the country, such as South Florida, from major cuts largely was eliminated.

A RAISE FOR DOCTORS: Primary care doctors would get Medicaid payment boosts in the reconciliation bill. Beginning in 2013 and 2014, the doctors' payment rates would be on par with Medicare rates, which typically are about 20 percent higher than Medicaid. The goal is to ensure that there will be a sufficient number of doctors who are willing to care for the millions of additional people who'd become eligible for Medicaid under the health care overhaul.

PUSHING UP THE MEDICARE TAX: The Senate bill adds 0.9 percentage point to the Medicare payroll tax on earned income above $200,000 for individuals or $250,000 for couples. Under the reconciliation bill, starting in 2013, people in those income brackets also would face a 3.8 percent tax on investment income, such as interest, capital gains and dividends.

PENALTY FOR NOT HAVING INSURANCE: Under the new bill, most Americans without insurance would face an annual penalty, starting in 2014 at $95, the same as in the Senate bill. In following years, however, the penalties in the reconciliation bill are slightly different. Those without insurance in 2016, for example, would pay the greater of two alternatives: a flat fee of $695, down from the Senate's $750, or 2.5 percent of their incomes, up from 2 percent in the Senate bill.

EXPANDING MEDICAID: The reconciliation package here differs from the Senate bill in several ways. It would delete a provision — dubbed the "Cornhusker kickback" — that would have exempted Nebraska from paying any cost of a Medicaid expansion included in the bill. However, it would provide full federal funding to all states for newly eligible Medicaid recipients for three years. It also would give additional funding to states, such as Vermont and Maine, that already have moved to cover adults without children, which isn't required under the Medicaid program.

MEDICARE SPENDING BOARD: The Senate bill would create an independent, 15-member board to recommend ways to control Medicare spending. The board remains in the reconciliation package, but it would be expected to produce only about half of its original projected savings of $23 billion in the Senate bill. That's because the new proposal would make greater cuts in Medicare Advantage plans.

http://www.truthout.org/revamped-hea...ges57848?print

[Wild Cobra]

This is insanity... Although I'm conservative (whatever that means anymore) on foreign policy, health care should be automatic for any american. It's ing ridiculous that we have the numbers uninsured that we presently have. Find the goddamn money, and take care of those that can't afford it!!!!

If that means a universal option...Do it! The private industry will thrive based on all the rich s that need cosmetic bull done, among other things.

My VA private care doctor abandoned his practice because he was fed up with HMOs controlling his livelihood, that's why there are excellent MDs in the VA system today!!! Insurance companies have run amok, ruining a system that should have worked...But it hasn't. We need some practical ing solutions to this, because our economy will not recover until people are able to free themselves from the weight of paying for health care, not to mention businesses.

Can you imagine if businesses were freed from worrying about health care/insurance????!!!!!

Wow...

You are so wrong for so many reasons.

Health care is expensive because when you have insurance, you don't think about the $25 copay. You aren't having to manage the cost, and are blind to trying to save the pool of insured money. Legal expenses and procedures you would say " no" to a doctor if you had to pay for yourself are raising the costs. Now with the new bill if passed, insurance prices will skyrocket because of the regulations involved.

Our worse insurance providers still place more than 75% of the money they take in, into the providers hands. Do you really think government involvement will make that more effective?

Also, don't believe the CBO numbers. They are only as good as the data congress gives them to score with. Even then, their predictions are usually so low when it comes to spending.

[jack sommerset]

you are one dumb motherf*cker

Do you have insurance? Have you ever had insurance? Why do you want people to pay for your dumbass? I know that answer. You are stupid and lazy. Take responsibility and pay for your own . It really is not hard. Put your hand back in your pocket and stop asking for handouts.

I gurantee you don't contribute to this bill. (FYI, it will never go into action). Not one single penny. You are a free loading s bag. You are not even typing from your own keyboard. You need to come clean. How much money does the government give you. From housing to food stamps. Come clean.

[ElNono]

I'm not so sure the parties don't like it. I'm thinking Senator Nelson loves his big handout, for one. Now if you mean the voters aligned with either party, that I definitely see.

Yeah, I'm talking about the voting population in general. Roughly half want a smaller version of the status quo, the other half wants a public option.
This doesn't address those things at all.

[Big P]

Tea party protesters hurl racial insults at Georgia Rep. John Lewis


Read more: http://www.miamiherald.com/2010/03/2...#ixzz0ilYllVB3

you Yonivore, snc, wc, whottt, crookshanks and any of the rest of you pieces of who barely deserve the air you breathe. May burn hotter when it receives your trash ing souls.

Those dumb s are planted there to stir up & give the Republicans & Tea Party a bad name. the sleazy dems...what part of " We don't want your ing socialized medicine" do you not understand?

[EmptyMan]

It'd be so easy for a plant to put on a suit and tie and pick on sitting man. Just sayin'

Who in their right mind would knowingly berate a worn down old man sitting on the ground suffering from parkinson's disease, let alone doing it on camera while in business attire. All while holding a sign saying "I am AFP" or whatever the name of that organization is.

[Big P]

And if somebody sees a more practical way to do it, then I'm all ears...

Yet all I hear is jackasses repeating the party lines.

Nobody wants to enact something that works, only something that will ensure that their "side" wins...

I wish the dems would see it that way...but apparently its this bill or nothing...which is bull ...we all want health care to be reformed..why not start with why hospitals etc. charge $49 for a tylenol or $24 for a pair of rubber gloves or how about the MILLIONS of bonuses that these CEO's are getting while their companies hike rates by %100 or more..to me this seems like a logical place to start figuring out how we can bring the cost of health care down...here's another..get people jobs...then we the people can decide IF we want health care or not & pay for it themselves instead of letting the gov. tell us what we need...they cant even run cash for clunkers, what makes people think the gov. will be able to run health care....this will be the biggest FAIL in US history & will be too costly in the long run...WAKE UP!!

[Bigzax]

the greedy rich want to get richer while the lazy poor want handouts.

and most of us in the middle have to pay for both. this sucks.

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

Thanks for the explanations from those who gave them.

So, it seems to me that this, like most of America's economic and social problems, comes down to Big Business (in this case the medical insurance industry, pharmaceutical industry, medical supply industry, etc) weilding far too much market power and running rampant (colluding and such to reap windfall profits) - in other words, it's a regulation problem. Does the bill solve it? From what you've told me, only partly. Good luck with that.

The other problem so clearly apparent from this thread is the ridiculous polarisation of American politics into two camps - US vs THEM - with no appreciation for the middle ground. I am not picking sides because I'm sure both sides have some valid arguments that need to be addressed in any compromise. This political polarisation happens everywhere, but in America it seems to be 1000 times more virulent, and it also seems to be tearing your nation apart. Who or what is ever going to bridge the gap and bring the two sides together to find a positive outcome?