Lebron James on the cover of GQ September 2010..

[LkrFan]

The fact that there's a 0.2 different in Kobe and Lebron's outside shooting, yet Kobe is praised for his outside shooting and Lebron is criticized for his, speaks volumes on the false perception..they're about the same as outside shooters, so I don't know why people keep criticizing Lebron for his shooting and praising Kobe..

Player A makes 35/100 3ptrs for a respectable 35%
Player B makes 350/1000 3ptrs for the same average

A mild exaggeration on my part, but it illustrates that Player A appears to be as accurate as Player B even though he doesn't take as many 3ptrs.

Conclusion: Player B takes markedly more 3ptrs than Player A to get the same average. Wouldn't you conclude that Player B really is the better shooter because of the much larger sample size?

In academics I would be more impressed with someone scoring a 90 when he or she had a 100 question examination than someone else who scored a 90 because he or she missed 1 out of 10 on a different exam.

In other words, don't let your hate for Kobe cloud your judgment. I would like to see LeHype's averages if he took the same amount of 3s as Kobe, took the same amount of "bail out" shots as Kobe, or the same end of the quarter 45' 3 pointers as Kobe. If that happens and the averages are close then you are right. Until then, STFU about LeHype being on Kobe's level as a shooter. Kobe is the better shooter of the two. Period. Even LeHype would admit it.

[Daddy_Of_All_Trolls]

No need to bash HH37 here, everyone else is doing a fine job owing him.

Old site, just for fun: http://ihatelebronjames.com/oldwebsite/index.html

[Chieflion]

Player A makes 35/100 3ptrs for a respectable 35%
Player B makes 350/1000 3ptrs for the same average

A mild exaggeration on my part, but it illustrates that Player A appears to be as accurate as Player B even though he doesn't take as many 3ptrs.

Conclusion: Player B takes markedly more 3ptrs than Player A to get the same average. Wouldn't you conclude that Player B really is the better shooter because of the much larger sample size?

In academics I would be more impressed with someone scoring a 90 when he or she had a 100 question examination than someone else who scored a 90 because he or she missed 1 out of 10 on a different exam.

In other words, don't let your hate for Kobe cloud your judgment. I would like to see LeHype's averages if he took the same amount of 3s as Kobe, took the same amount of "bail out" shots as Kobe, or the same end of the quarter 45' 3 pointers as Kobe. If that happens and the averages are close then you are right. Until then, STFU about LeHype being on Kobe's level as a shooter. Kobe is the better shooter of the two. Period. Even LeHype would admit it.

Last season, LeBron James took and made more 3s than Kobe Bryant. LeBron James took 5.1 three point shots per game while Kobe Bryant took 4.1 three point shots.

Your long post actually makes an argument for LeBron James being a better 3 point shooter than Kobe Bryant last season because their percentage is roughly the same.

[HarlemHeat37]

It's not "just" the playoff sample sizes. It's the playoffs + regular season. Makes for a pretty big sample size. There's no reason not to consider the playoffs three point shooting, not by themselves, but along with the regular season three point shooting. The playoffs are part of the season, and most would agree that playoff stats are more genuine because it's better compe ion and teams are playing harder and better defensively.

Ok, we'll include playoff stats..

At any rate, it's disappointing to see you use a "stats only" argument as non-refutable proof. As with most things when analyzing and evaluating basketball, you cannot simply rely on stats. They often help, but they don't always tell the entire story. Take for example Arron Afflalo's three point shooting last season. He shot 43.4% from three point range with a healthy 249 attempts. I'm sorry but Arron Afflalo is not a better three point shooter than guys like Steve Nash, JJ Re , Paul Pierce, Dirk Nowitzki, and Anthony Parker. His stats were better last year. But you also have to factor in that Afflalo almost always only shot a three point attempt when his feet were set, spotting up in the corner and from a pass. He rarely, I'd be surprised if ever, created the three point shot off the dribble in an isolation. I doubt he ever took a bad three point attempt as far as being defended unless the shot clock was winding down. His great three point shooting percentage last season does not mean he's a better three point shooter than Steve Nash. It's poor Hollinger statistical analysis and evaluation to only look at the stats to come to that conclusion without understanding that other variables factor in.

Kobe is a better three point shooter than LeBron, despite what last season's numbers say, whether they were close or not.

Except, using the logic you just displayed, Lebron would be the better 3-point shooter than Kobe..the only thing you have going for you here is Kobe's 0.2% advantage, which is obviously strictly relying on stats, which you just dismissed..

The difference for the entire year was 0.2 in Kobe's favor..however, you're using the logic that the difficulty of the shot should be factored in, which would give Lebron the advantage..

Kobe Bryant took 256 spot-up jump shots last season, meaning mostly open shots..a 129 of those shots were 3-pointers, where he shot 40%, by far his highest mark for any kind of scenario..

Lebron James only received a 162 spot-up jump shots, almost a 100 less than Kobe, obviously due to the responsibility he had in the offense..Lebron took 89 of them and shot 35% off of these spot-up 3s..

Isolation 3s, which obviously come off the dribble and are generally much more difficult shots, as you mentioned, give Lebron a significant advantage..

Kobe took a 118 isolation 3-pointers this season, making 32% of them, clearly showing Kobe's deteriorating skills in regards to creating his own offense..Lebron took a 158 of them, 40 more, and made 36% of them..according to your logic, which is fair, this clearly should be factored into the argument, giving Lebron the clear advantage..

Kobe took 47 pick and roll 3-pointers and made 36% of them..Lebron took 88 of them and made 36% of them..another advantage for Lebron in a scenario where he has to create his own shot, they shot the same %, despite Lebron taking 40 more shots..

Literally Kobe's only 3-point advantage over Lebron comes in the form of spot-up shooting..so you attempted to use that as a counter-argument, yet you just helped Lebron's case, TBH..these stats include the playoffs, BTW..

So there was a 0.2 difference in Kobe and Lebron's 3-point shooting this season, yet Lebron received 40 less spot-up 3s, and obviously had much more responsibility in the offense..he clearly took more difficult 3s, as he had to take 81 more 3-point attempts than Kobe, where he had to create his own 3-point shot..

So overall, off the dribble/creating own offense:

Kobe shot 33% from 3s
Lebron shot 36% from 3s

This is despite the fact that Lebron took around 80 more shots in these situations..if he took around the same as Kobe, his % advantage obviously would have been much greater..

As Chieflion said, they shot basically the same %, despite Lebron taking more 3-point attempts..also, as I just proved, Lebron had to create off the dribble A LOT more than Kobe did, which like you said, should be factored in..

Of course, you can counter by saying that this doesn't necessarily prove that he's always taking more difficult shots than Kobe, which is partly true, but it's much more proof than you can possibly provide for this argument, TBH..


As for your Afflalo example, the numbers back this up too, so you're correct about using it..he only created 5 3-point shots for himself all season long, so obviously it should be factored in, unlike Nash and others, guys that took tons of 3-point shots off the dribble..unfortunately for you, your argument hurts your case here in the case of Lebron vs. Kobe..

For example, Steve Nash shot 43% from 3s in scenarios where he had to create off the dribble, these numbers are a pretty accurate gauge for comparisons..

Last season, LeBron James took and made more 3s than Kobe Bryant. LeBron James took 5.1 three point shots per game while Kobe Bryant took 4.1 three point shots.

Your long post actually makes an argument for LeBron James being a better 3 point shooter than Kobe Bryant last season because their percentage is roughly the same.

I've honestly never seen anybody argue so poorly, he's so bad..go easy on him Chief..

[LkrFan]

Last season, LeBron James took and made more 3s than Kobe Bryant. LeBron James took 5.1 three point shots per game while Kobe Bryant took 4.1 three point shots.

Your long post actually makes an argument for LeBron James being a better 3 point shooter than Kobe Bryant last season because their percentage is roughly the same.

Kobe holds the NBA record for 3ptrs in a game: 12. That's more than Bird, Reggie Miller, Chuck Person, Ray Allen, MJ, etc. Kobe played this year with multiple broken fingers on his shooting hand. He should have sat out with surgery. Instead, he changed his shooting form - during the season - then went on to win another ring.

Don't let that stat fool you. Kobe is a better shooter than LeHype. Stop kidding yourself.

[HarlemHeat37]

Jam with the goods again! And there is no argument Hoboy can use to refute the post. And to top it all. Jam's gold medal trumps the silver!

Maybe you can do the honors of letting HarlemHo know the difference between NBA fantasy basketball debating and NBA live action debating.

do you guys ever NOT piggyback when it comes to actual basketball arguments?..

I've never seen a fanbase piggy back on a fan of a different team like ST Laker fans do with Jamstone..he pretty much has to carry the entire Laker fanbase with his arguments..

[HarlemHeat37]

Kobe holds the NBA record for 3ptrs in a game: 12. That's more than Bird, Reggie Miller, Chuck Person, Ray Allen, MJ, etc.

So does Donyell Marshall..

[LkrFan]

So does Donyell Marshall..

Whatever - LeHype won't ever get it.

[Chieflion]

So does Donyell Marshall..

What is the website you used to get all those situational stats from?

[JamStone]

Ok, we'll include playoff stats..



Except, using the logic you just displayed, Lebron would be the better 3-point shooter than Kobe..the only thing you have going for you here is Kobe's 0.2% advantage, which is obviously strictly relying on stats, which you just dismissed..

The difference for the entire year was 0.2 in Kobe's favor..however, you're using the logic that the difficulty of the shot should be factored in, which would give Lebron the advantage..

Kobe Bryant took 256 spot-up jump shots last season, meaning mostly open shots..a 129 of those shots were 3-pointers, where he shot 40%, by far his highest mark for any kind of scenario..

Lebron James only received a 162 spot-up jump shots, almost a 100 less than Kobe, obviously due to the responsibility he had in the offense..Lebron took 89 of them and shot 35% off of these spot-up 3s..

Isolation 3s, which obviously come off the dribble and are generally much more difficult shots, as you mentioned, give Lebron a significant advantage..

Kobe took a 118 isolation 3-pointers this season, making 32% of them, clearly showing Kobe's deteriorating skills in regards to creating his own offense..Lebron took a 158 of them, 40 more, and made 36% of them..according to your logic, which is fair, this clearly should be factored into the argument, giving Lebron the clear advantage..

Kobe took 47 pick and roll 3-pointers and made 36% of them..Lebron took 88 of them and made 36% of them..another advantage for Lebron in a scenario where he has to create his own shot, they shot the same %, despite Lebron taking 40 more shots..

Literally Kobe's only 3-point advantage over Lebron comes in the form of spot-up shooting..so you attempted to use that as a counter-argument, yet you just helped Lebron's case, TBH..these stats include the playoffs, BTW..

So there was a 0.2 difference in Kobe and Lebron's 3-point shooting this season, yet Lebron received 40 less spot-up 3s, and obviously had much more responsibility in the offense..he clearly took more difficult 3s, as he had to take 81 more 3-point attempts than Kobe, where he had to create his own 3-point shot..

So overall, off the dribble/creating own offense:

Kobe shot 33% from 3s
Lebron shot 36% from 3s

This is despite the fact that Lebron took around 80 more shots in these situations..if he took around the same as Kobe, his % advantage obviously would have been much greater..

As Chieflion said, they shot basically the same %, despite Lebron taking more 3-point attempts..also, as I just proved, Lebron had to create off the dribble A LOT more than Kobe did, which like you said, should be factored in..

Of course, you can counter by saying that this doesn't necessarily prove that he's always taking more difficult shots than Kobe, which is partly true, but it's much more proof than you can possibly provide for this argument, TBH..


As for your Afflalo example, the numbers back this up too, so you're correct about using it..he only created 5 3-point shots for himself all season long, so obviously it should be factored in, unlike Nash and others, guys that took tons of 3-point shots off the dribble..unfortunately for you, your argument hurts your case here in the case of Lebron vs. Kobe..

For example, Steve Nash shot 43% from 3s in scenarios where he had to create off the dribble, these numbers are a pretty accurate gauge for comparisons..

Good post. Lol I thought mogrovejo stopped posting.

Much more compelling argument than simply posting the regular season three point percentages of one season and claiming it as "fact."

I'll assume all of those selected situational stats from last year are accurate. Do they include playoff situational stats too? At any rate, if they're all accurate, I have no problem acquiescing that LeBron was a better three point shooter than Kobe last season.

My post was more geared towards you simply using one regular season where the difference was negligible to support your argument, and then you want to dwell on how little of a difference there is when you add the playoff stats into the equation. So when the really small difference was in favor of LeBron, you simply concluded it as "fact" but when the small difference was in favor of Kobe, you criticized it for being only a small difference.

Regardless, it was really good statistical info. LeBron was a better three point shooter than Kobe last season. I'd still take Kobe's jumper of LeBron's. And as chieflion asked, would like to know where you got your mogro three point stats.

[cobbler]

Just watch the games, son. You don't need a website to tell you what players are good and what players aren''t.

HO does. He wouldn't know what a basketball game is if he didn't have a stat sheet to dwell on. He's like that guy at the end of the bench. Never gets to play and when he does immediatly runs to the scorers table to get his stats. We all have played with them. Then they and complain all the time cause they just cant understand why the coach doesn't play them more. They just never seem to realize they don't have what it takes because there is soooo much more to a game than stats. They fade away like all other losers. That is if they ever made the team. The guys that never make the teams (Ho) sit in their armchairs and scour stat sheets and pretend they know what it truly takes to be a basketball player. Those who know the game don't need stats to determine who the better players are.

[TheMACHINE]

mogrove must have gave harlemho his password to the NBA advanced stats site.