Who was a better player at their peak: Manu or Ray Allen?

[mingus]

I think it's one of those debates where you say it depends on the team around them. Manu is first and foremost a playmaker, Ray Allen a pure shooter. Both have always been 2nd fiddle guys, even when they've had to be first fiddle (which is the case with Manu now and was with Ray Allen until he got to Boston). I think they're the same calibre of player. Depends on the team's needs.

[FkLA]

The durability argument that is always used against Manu is re ed tbh, s always act like hes made of glass or something. Manu has played 9 seasons in the NBA, he's played 70+ games six of those seasons. He has two others were he played 69 and 65. He's missed 8 games combined the past two seasons while being the Spurs best player, with a few of them being because Pop decided to rest his starters towards the end of the season. Parker has always been similar in that hes a type of player that always misses 10 (give or take a few) games a season yet he never gets this glass label. His minutes were low but thats expected considering he was coming off the bench...guys like Barry, Finley, and Hedo depending on Duncan/Parker to get them open looks was much more of a reason for Manu being a 6th man than him being made out of glass.

Id take peak Manu over peak Ray without hesitation. Ray was pretty much strictly always a shooter/scorer and not much of a playmaker, I dont think his supporting cast is the only reason his Sonics and Bucks never made much noise. Guys like him, Reggie, Redd, Rip, etc dont really make their teammates better...if anything they depend on their teammates' screens to get them open looks. Manu can come at you in different ways, and can wreck more havoc on a defense. was the best passing two guard in the league and one of the best slashers, and had the ability to close out games as good as anyone. He was also a better defender and had much faster hands than Ray. During 05 and 06 it was pretty much unanimous that Manu was the the 3rd best SG in the league, just a step below Kobe & Wade.

[endrity]

As much as I hate to agree with DAF, I take Manu on this one.

And the reason is pretty much the same as for taking Dirk over KG. Manu actually takes over games, series in a way that Ray never did. For me, when asked to be a number 1 option for the Spurs Manu has always been a better option than Ray ever was.

As good as Ray was, he never hit a peak like Manu did in 05. There was a period in his career when you could argue that he was the second best SG in the league behind Kobe. Wade's rise and Manu's eventual physical decline made that a brief period, but advanced stats still put him 3rd in the league behind those two for a couple of years. Ray never was quite there.

[FkLA]

And the reason is pretty much the same as for taking Dirk over KG. Manu actually takes over games, series in a way that Ray never did. For me, when asked to be a number 1 option for the Spurs Manu has always been a better option than Ray ever was.

Yeah, this comparison is really really similar to the Dirk/KG one. The only small difference is that Ray isnt the best defensive SG of all-time while KG is probably the best defensive PF of all-time.

[endrity]

Yeah, this comparison is really really similar to the Dirk/KG one. The only small difference is that Ray isnt the best defensive SG of all-time while KG is probably the best defensive PF of all-time.

Your hatred of Dirk is well do ented, no need to bring it up in another thread.

If you had read my post completely you'd understand the point I was trying to make. Manu wins the argument, because just like Dirk, he has a higher ceiling when there is a need to win games and series. Ray, and KG, didn't.

[Giuseppe]

Been such a long, sustained drop for Manu, it's difficult to recollect his prime. He's disgraced himself so badly the last two years, it's really quite sad. If I hadn't already assigned bag status to Duncan, Manu woulda been fully en led.

[Ginobilly]

Far as America's concerned that boy is pure .

Manu is 3/4 Wop, 1/4 according to him on his website.

[TDMVPDPOY]

peak stats and peak play is totally diff..

u can have peak stats and ur production has no meaning affect on a game...

where as a player who doesnt need big numbers on the stat sheet, but u can see his clearly affecting the game

[jacobdrj]

Ray has the most picture perfect shot on the planet... He is the guy I would point to if I wanted to teach someone how to shoot properly...

With that said, Manu was a great overall penetration/shooting threat, and plays with a reckless abandon that few else can match. I think Ray is a better 'real' defender, but the refs called Manu's flops, and that counts for something.

I'd take Manu, knowing what I know now, were I to get either of them from the start of their careers...

[Spur_Fanatic]

Greatly depends on the coach/team/players I have...
But 5.5-out-of-10 times (I'd say 6, but 6 is too excesssive)... I'd take Ray.

Now, if I have a team like the Heat, and I have to choose between Manu of Ray... I'd pick Manu. Manu is the guy that would have no problem standing up to Lebron and Wade and say something "You both are terrible chockers, give me the damn ball, I'll do the assists for the rest of the night..." Ray would just go with the flow.

Still, I'd like to see how Manu declines in the nex years 2 or 3 years.
I may end up going homer and pick him (if there is good reason).

[ducks]

Manu is better at slashing, creating for others and defending than Ray


Come on now

and not being able to play 40 minutes and not staying healthy

[picc84]

How many minutes does manu play when Duncan or Parker is out? Whats the longest he's ever gone playing 35+?

[FkLA]

Your hatred of Dirk is well do ented, no need to bring it up in another thread.

If you had read my post completely you'd understand the point I was trying to make. Manu wins the argument, because just like Dirk, he has a higher ceiling when there is a need to win games and series. Ray, and KG, didn't.

Youre the one that brought the KG/Dirk comparison in here tbh. You couldve easily said Manu had a higher ceiling without including Dirk...especially when the comparisons arent very similar considering the fact that Ray Allen cant take over games defensively like KG, which makes Ray's ceiling considerably lower than KG's.

[Proxy]

Well if it's at their peak, then it really isn't obvious either way. Durability isn't in question. We're arguing for a player that never succeed as a 1 option against a player who spent his prime and was successful as a 2 option. Ray has the best shot of all time so that's hard to go up against, but Manu has the gold against the US to prove his worth as a 1 option.

I go with Manu on this. He is better at creating for his teammates, while Ray's game depends on screens from his teammates. Manu gives you the wild card energy and intangibles and both are clutch. Manu has made stupid ass mistakes, but Ray never really did with the Sonics. Best they did was lose to the Spurs in the 2nd round.

[joshdaboss]

For me, I'm super surprised ANY spurs fan would say Allen over Manu. Not because of being a homer, but because they really, truly know how valuable Manu is to a team, and how much he plays above sometimes seemingly pedestrian stats. Manu can effect the game in SO many more ways than Ray Allen. Ray Allen possesses ONE elite skill. That's how he's made it in his career. Manu has no truly elite skill, but he's great in several aspects. I'll always take this type of player over someone who is one-dimensional. Also, defense can't be accurately put into statistics, but an eye test will tell you Manu DESTROYS Ray Allen defensively. I think that's where the difference is really made. Manu's defense is a lot better than Ray's and he's comparable offensively. In fact, I'd call it a wash, because Allen can't do anything besides shoot it. He's not getting others involved.

[DAF86]

Allen the best shot of all time? Nash's shot is clearly better imo.

[Dr House]

Dirk. Gasol is a pussy and a softee. Ok I didn't say this a month ago but since I'm trying to defend Kobe I have to......

Wait what? I thought I heard somebody disparage the Great Lord Bryant so I had to rush over and defend him like always. Nevermind, it's a debate between two scrubs. I guess I can get off my knees now

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

Ray Allen's balls would shrivel up when he was being guarded by Bruce Bowen. Manu is afraid of no man.

If I'm choosing teams I take Manu every time.

[ducks]

manu was never guarded by bowen in a game
bowen would own him
kobe think bruce bowen was the best d guy on him
kobe>manu

[FkLA]

parker being owned by conley

[Monostradamus]

Allen the best shot of all time? Nash's shot is clearly better imo.

If you're talking a game of horse, then maybe Nash.

Ray Allen's shot is better because it's quicker, his actual shooting motion is more efficient, and he can get it off against anyone at any time in an NBA game.