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  1. #51
    The Boognish FuzzyLumpkins's Avatar
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    Darrin, your critical thinking skills once again suck ass. It said it was their fault because they deregulated. I would tell you to think about it a bit but you are too stupid to figure it out given any amount of time.

    I will break it down for you. It wasn't a law or regulation that caused it but a LACK OF A LAW OR REGULATION.

    Do you even have a stance or do you just play the mindless partisan shill nonstop?

  2. #52
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    "Govt guarnteed mortgages"

    have been a policy for decades to stimulate home building and ownership. And there was never a problem until derivatives exploded in the 2000s. There's your causality. Not govt.

    Bloomberg lies.

    btw, when the Feds insure/buy a loan, it assumes it's being written/sold in good faith and the borrower has been qualified according to Fed mortgage regulations. That clearly was not the case in Ms of mortgages. "cram down" where the lenders would be forced to take back/eat the toxic mortgages they sold to taxpayers is still proposed as a solution (but of course the Wall-St-owned Exec/Congress will never do it).

    The $800B in dubya estate and other tax cuts got into private, non-bank, non-REGULATED lending searching for high returns (ie, sub-prime high-rate mortgages and fees from mortgage writing/flipping).

    Bloomberg tells THE BIG LIE that GOVT IS THE PROBLEM, hiding his own capitalistic ilk as the problem.
    Last edited by boutons_deux; 11-02-2011 at 05:14 AM.

  3. #53
    Veteran Ignignokt's Avatar
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    If Bloombergs point was that the banks need regulation and thats why it was the governments fault then I agree. Too bad it wasn't so the quote you responded with is moot.

    Yes, the government didn't babysit enough. Probably because they're in the financial sector's pocket. Thats not the financial sectors fault though. Its not their fault they lobbied against that regulation, is it, Darrin?

    I swear its like you don't realize what the you're posting.
    The crisis started in the investment banking sector, and most of the damage caused was done by investment firms seperate of commercial banking for which glass steagall would have prevented.

    So then it is the regulatory SEC's job to prevent bad loans from getting good ratings, but this indicates that regulation failed here to prevent risky investing.


    The truth is that regulators are always late to the problem, and cause more problems than fix. Glass Steagall was enforced to fix a problem that early regulations caused which was the insuring of deposits by the federal govt.


    Glass steagall wouldn't of had prevented this crisis because most of the investing was done seperate from the intermingling of commercial and investment banks.

  4. #54
    Veteran Ignignokt's Avatar
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    I still don't get how you people think glass steagall would have prevented the crisis when most of the damage was caused by investment firms independent of commercial banking.

    The "if we would have had Glass Steagall" argument is another indicator of who is a political hack.

  5. #55
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    Did someone make that argument?

  6. #56
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    G-S would have prevented boring retail banking getting into casino-risky investment banking, prevented retail banking from getting into insurance (Citi + Travellers).

    btw, the Repugs are being paid by the banks to kill the provision in F-D that banks that write mortgages must keep just a tiny accountability/liability for the mortgage going bad. The lenders want NO RISK in writing a mortgage they sell to investors.

    btw, Denmark requires lenders to service a mortgage to maturity, 100% liability. No creative financial instruments, innovations like MBS, etc allowed.

    in short: the Banksters' Great (Jobs) Depression was a direct result of policies paid for by the financial industry, not some unforseeable, unfortunate Act of Economic Gods.
    Last edited by boutons_deux; 11-02-2011 at 10:57 AM.

  7. #57
    Veteran Ignignokt's Avatar
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    http://www.voxeu.org/index.php?q=node/4710.


    The hurricane of the global financial crisis has been withstood – but it has left behind a swath of destruction in the US. The US devoted $1.3 trillion to rescue banks and $800 billion for economic stimulus packages. Private real-estate financing has completely collapsed – 95% of loans for private real-estate in 2009 were channelled through government ins utions. More than 200 banks went bankrupt during the crisis. The US debt-to-GDP ratio will approach the 100% mark this year and will probably exceed it in 2011 or early 2012.

    Now that the storm has subsided, it is time to clear away the debris from the shattered financial system. After initial hesitation, US president Barack Obama now seems ready to take action and is supporting the proposals of former Fed chairman Paul Volcker (Obama 2010).

    Volcker has proposed reactivating the American system of separate investment and commercial banks that was created by the Glass-Steagall Act. The Act was established in 1933, shortly after the worst phase of the Great Depression, and it forbade commercial banks from acting as investment banks. The commercial banks were allowed to lend deposited savings to private households, businesses, and other banks, but they were not allowed to buy securities or to assist in their exchange. The purchase of stocks was forbidden, as was the acquisition of securitised financial products. Even the purchase of corporate bonds and private debentures was limited to a negligible minimum. The goal of the legislation was to protect savers from risky financial transactions.

    When the Glass-Steagall Act was repealed in 1999, some commercial banks made hesitant attempts at investment banking, which gave rise to su ions that this could have been a reason for the financial crisis. But this is far from the truth. In reality the system of bank separation remained fairly intact up to the outbreak of the crisis.

    As is well-known, the crisis was triggered in 2008 by the unexpected failure of the government to rescue Lehman Brothers. That destroyed banks’ trust in each other and froze up the interbank market. Deposited savings could no longer be channelled to investors but stayed with the commercial banks. The result was a crash of the real economy. If the US had not had a separation of banks, the economy would have been less susceptible to a breakdown of the interbank market, since the commercial banks could have routed at least part of deposited savings to businesses via the purchase of stocks or bonds.
    What motivated Obama and Volcker?

    The answer lies in an event on 22 September 2008 that took the financial world by surprise, i.e. the conversion of Goldman Sachs and Morgan Stanley, the last surviving large investment banks, into normal commercial banks. Behind this conversion was the desire of the two banks to attain access to cheap credit from the Fed and the protection of Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation (FDIC). The government actually wanted to exclude the investment banks from receiving special help, but they got around this by quickly changing their legal status. Now Obama is trying to square up accounts.

    This is understandable but dangerous for Europe because, unlike the US, it has a universal banking system. If Obama succeeds in anchoring a separation of commercial and investment banks worldwide at the G20 negotiations, this would mean a destruction of the European banking world, whereas in the US the repercussions of the reform would be limited. Hopefully Obama’s advisers were not inspired by this prospect.

    Crisis prevention will certainly not come from a return to a system of bank separation. It is true that the reduced likelihood of government help will induce investment banks to act more cautiously. But this plus point does not offset the increased susceptibility to crisis from the division of banking functions. Moreover, it is doubtful whether the likelihood of government rescue will really be reduced. The state will have to rescue large investment banks even if they do not manage customer savings since no one would accept a repeat of the Lehman Brothers disaster.

    The banks’ cavalier risk taking that led to the crisis was due to their inadequate capital reserves. People are tempted to gamble if their own capital is hardly involved, because they can pocket the gains and only have to shoulder a small portion of the losses themselves, regardless of whether the state helps or not. The incentive to gamble can only be suppressed by drastically increasing capital reserve requirements.

    Europe should not follow the US proposals at the next G20 summit but should concentrate fully and entirely on strengthening the capital reserves of the banks.

    Even the German Wunderkind Central Planners know that Glass Steagall is really a red herring concerning the cause of the crisis.

  8. #58
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    "The banks’ cavalier risk taking that led to the crisis was due to their inadequate capital reserves."

    Bull . what led to the crisis was the excessive risk taking, bets (insurance) on bets on outcomes of bets, up to $50T+ (M-L alone has $75T of liabilities (now dumped on FDIC/taxpayers), no amount of capital reserve was available to cover that)

  9. #59
    e^(i*pi) + 1 = 0 MannyIsGod's Avatar
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  10. #60
    Veteran DarrinS's Avatar
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    Regardless, the GSE's were largely responsible for the crisis, regardless what percentage of their portfolio were "subprime" and regardless of what percentage of their loans (the ones they bought) were originated by private lenders. The GSE's were clearly mismanaged and, instead of proper oversight, the Democrats in congress attacked the regulator.


    A good read.


    http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/...ored_20100414/



    There aren’t too many genuine heroes to come out of the banking disaster, but Armando Falcon is one of them. You have probably never heard of him, but his testimony Friday before the Financial Crisis Inquiry Commission, available on the commission’s website, is must reading for anyone trying to figure out why U.S. taxpayers had to bail out companies to the tune of hundreds of billions of dollars.

    Falcon was the chief regulator attempting to bring order to the houses of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac during the first four years of this decade, and had he been listened to, a significant part of the housing crisis could have been mitigated. Instead his agency was denied serious regulatory power by Democrats in Congress including liberals such as Reps. Barney Frank and Maxine Waters, both of whom assumed he was undermining public support for more affordable housing.

    He wasn’t, and instead was attempting to call attention to the reckless bundling of risky mortgages in which the government-chartered agencies acted like the other too-big-to-fail behemoths that together almost wrecked the entire economy. It was those on the lower end of the income scale who had put their life savings into risky mortgages that were most hurt when the bubble burst.

    This is a guy whom Republican congressmen and the Wall Street Journal editorial writers have lionized, and for once they got it right. At least the part about Fannie and Freddie being out of control and their applauding Falcon’s past efforts to rein in the greed of their top executives. Where they go wrong is when they attribute the company’s misbehavior to the alleged liberal do-gooderism of the mostly Democratic Party hacks that ran the enterprises. The reality is that concern for affordable housing goals was simply a convenient mask for unfettered greed.

    Conservatives make much of those goals, which both Bill Clinton and George W. Bush endorsed, but objectives of this sort had nothing to do with the sordid behavior of the executives who ran the companies. Asked by the commission to testify on the impact of those goals, Falcon responded:

    “Your letter also asked me about the impact of affordable housing goals on the enterprises’ financial problems. In my opinion, the goals were not the cause of the enterprises’ demise. The firms would not engage in any activity, goal fulfilling or otherwise, unless there was a profit to be made. Fannie and Freddie invested in subprime and Alt A mortgages in order to increase profits and regain market share. Any impact on meeting affordable housing goals was a byproduct of the activity.”

    The problem with the so-called government-sponsored but essentially private ins utions that the conservatives are so happy to vilify and that liberals feel the need to defend is that they represented the worst of both worlds. Although originally chartered by the government, they had morphed into super for-profit monstrosities run by executives whose huge bonuses depended on the price of the company stock. As Falcon put it in his testimony:

    “Ultimately the companies were not unwitting victims of an economic down cycle or flawed products and services of theirs. Their failure was deeply rooted in a culture of arrogance and greed.”

    In short, they behaved like the other financial conglomerates, but the government-sponsored housing enterprises were protected by powerful members of Congress and what turned out to be a strong guarantee that their bad paper would be covered by the taxpayers.

    They do deserve considerable blame for the banking disaster that ensued, and while it is hardly the whole story, it gave the free-market conservatives a convenient target. But it also presents them with a contradiction that they refuse to confront. The housing enterprises failed not because they were do-gooder public en ies but because they weren’t. Their top executives were driven by the same desire for outlandish profit that their counterparts at AIG and Citigroup had. As Falcon put it referring to then Fannie Mae’s CEO Franklin Raines:

    “While all of this political power satisfied the egos of Fannie and Freddie executives, it ultimately served one primary purpose: the speedy ac ulation of personal wealth by any means. … In the case of CEO Franklin Raines, he collected over $90 million in total compensation from 1998 to 2003. Of that amount, $52 million was directly tied to achieving earnings-per-share goals. However, the earnings goal turned out to be unachievable without breaking rules and hiding risks.”

    It only adds insult to injury to blame the unfettered greed of folks like Raines, and his congressional allies who were lavishly attended to by those agencies, on a concern for the low-income homebuyers who were their main victims.

  11. #61
    e^(i*pi) + 1 = 0 MannyIsGod's Avatar
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    So the GSE's were responsible regardless of the facts?

    !!!!!!!!

  12. #62
    e^(i*pi) + 1 = 0 MannyIsGod's Avatar
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    A gunshot victim is brought into the morgue. Darrin looks at him and notices that the victim was overweight. Darrin concludes that regardless of the bullet lodged in the victim's brain, the actual killer was the obesity because obesity is bad. Darrin then posts a youtube about Obesity being bad.

  13. #63
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    You're seem to be missing the nuance in the source Darrin is standing behind at the moment, but in fairness he probably missed it too.

  14. #64
    e^(i*pi) + 1 = 0 MannyIsGod's Avatar
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    You're seem to be missing the nuance in the source Darrin is standing behind at the moment, but in fairness he probably missed it too.
    Help me out.

  15. #65
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    This is a guy whom Republican congressmen and the Wall Street Journal editorial writers have lionized, and for once they got it right. At least the part about Fannie and Freddie being out of control and their applauding Falcon’s past efforts to rein in the greed of their top executives. Where they go wrong is when they attribute the company’s misbehavior to the alleged liberal do-gooderism of the mostly Democratic Party hacks that ran the enterprises. The reality is that concern for affordable housing goals was simply a convenient mask for unfettered greed.

  16. #66
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    They do deserve considerable blame for the banking disaster that ensued, and while it is hardly the whole story...

  17. #67
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    Congress made him do it:

    Feds File Massive Fraud Case Against Allied Home Mortgage

    Federal prosecutors sued Allied Home Mortgage Capital Corp. and two top executives Tuesday, accusing them of running a massive fraud scheme that cost the government at least $834 million in insurance claims on defaulted home loans.

    Houston-based Allied and its founder and chief executive, Jim Hodge, were the subject of July 2010 stories by ProPublica, which detailed a trail of alleged misconduct, lawsuits and government sanctions spanning at least 18 states and seven years. Borrowers recounted how they had been lied to by Allied employees, who in some cases had siphoned the loan proceeds for personal gain. Some borrowers lost their homes.
    Related

    Despite years of warnings, the federal government had not — until this week — impaired the company's ability to issue new mortgages.

    The suit, filed Tuesday in U.S. District Court in Manhattan, seeks triple damages and civil penalties, which could total $2.5 billion. Simultaneously, the U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development suspended the company and Hodge from issuing loans backed by the Federal Housing Administration. The company was also barred from issuing mortgage-backed securities through the Government National Mortgage Association (Ginnie Mae).


    "Allied has billed itself as the nation's largest, privately held mortgage broker, with some 200 branches."

    http://www.propublica.org/article/fe...-home-mortgage

    ====

    And there's Mozilo/CountryWide, and .... and .... and .... etc.

    All forced into fraud by the govt, the GSEs.

  18. #68
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    The truthdig article acknowledges the role of GSE's without making it the sole scapegoat. It's far more balanced than the point Darrin seems to be trying to make.

  19. #69
    e^(i*pi) + 1 = 0 MannyIsGod's Avatar
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    The truthdig article acknowledges the role of GSE's without making it the sole scapegoat. It's far more balanced than the point Darrin seems to be trying to make.
    Oh I don't think I missed that. I don't think I've ever denied that the GSEs were poorly run and did not effectively execute what they were meant to do.

    That was kind of my point with the analogy I made above. The GSE's role was bad, but when taken into context of what the private sector did it was minor. That being said, the private influence on government - and specifically those GSE's - is one of the big reasons we need reform. Its the same people but these happen to work under the umbrella of "government".

  20. #70
    e^(i*pi) + 1 = 0 MannyIsGod's Avatar
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    When Gtown says that this isn't a true free market he's absolutely correct. When others say that there isn't enough regulation, they're also correct. The problem doesn't lie with regulation, IMO, it lies with influence covered up in cheap tawdry ineffective regulation.

    The problem as I see it, is that a free market doesn't provide that. The financial sector merely molds legislation right now to its liking through lobbying. If there was no regulation, the end results would be the same as having ineffective regulation, however.

  21. #71
    The Boognish FuzzyLumpkins's Avatar
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    http://www.voxeu.org/index.php?q=node/4710.


    Even the German Wunderkind Central Planners know that Glass Steagall is really a red herring concerning the cause of the crisis.
    In your zeal for preventing the reregulation of the banking industry you neglected to note that your little article supports regulation of minimum reserves. There is more than just Glass Steagal in banking regulation.

    You call people ignorant but the board 'conservatives' seem to be doing a lot of self ownage in this thread.

  22. #72
    Veteran EVAY's Avatar
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    The folks that are saying that Glass-Steagal repeal had a hand in the debacle are correct inasmuch as the "chinese wall" that was SUPPOSED to exist between the investment side of a bank and the deposit side of a bank failed in way too many respects after it was repealed, and some bankers were actually using depositor funds to 'speculate' in credit default swaps and other derivatives for the banks' own investment activities. I KNOW this happened because I was on a bank board when they started doing it...I went ballistic and was reminded that Board of Director members were not really there to question management's day-to-day decisions...I didn't ask what we were actually supposed to be doing then...but I did leave shortly thereafter.

    There is so much blame to go around in this area it is useless in the extreme to try to lay it off on politicians. They understood less of the issue than anyone else involved, and the people who understood the most didn't care enough to fight for the right thing (these folks include some of the traders and all of the rating agency personnel). Believe me, if a rating agency had said that the derivatives were based on underlying junk rated bonds, the buy side investors would have been prevented by their own boards from investing in them.

    It is part of almost every buy-side (think pension funds etc.) investment guidance that they are prohibited from purchasing anything less than aaa or aa rated securities of any kind.

  23. #73
    e^(i*pi) + 1 = 0 MannyIsGod's Avatar
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    Someone should tell those fund managers that those ratings aren't supposed to be used for investment decisions.

  24. #74
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    "The truth is that regulators are always late to the problem,"

    the REAL TRUTH is that SEC is staffed by Wall St people who have NO INTEREST in being early, late, or addressing any problems. Enforcement, even of SEC weak regs, IS KNOWN, by ex-staffers' own admission, to be of no interest to the SEC.

    And the Repugs have defunded/understaffed the SEC, just like they're doing to the IRS

    btw, when Wall ST Sheriff Spitzer and 18 others state AG tried to get predatory lending shutdown, dubya's Repug operative running the OCC shut the AGs down, saying lending was a Fed domain, not the states' domain (Repug hypocrisy and irony!!)

    Then there's the Treasury (full of Wall Streeters) and the Fed (a private club with secret members who are mostly (ex)Wall St bankers).

    The finance sector has completely captured the financial regulators, but you right-wing assholes only about the regulators as uniquely culpable, never about the corrupters in the finance sector.
    Last edited by boutons_deux; 11-28-2011 at 11:03 AM.

  25. #75
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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