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  1. #51
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    France's oil industry is predicting $8 - $10/gallon, with about 70% of the pump price being taxes.

  2. #52
    selbstverständlich Agloco's Avatar
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    Look at the thread le. Sanctions might have been counterproductive, encouraging Iran to accelerate the process, if for no other reason than to deter socially and politically painful sanctions. It's just possible sanctions have greased the skids.
    If I didn't have firsthand knowledge, I'd gladly concede this point. Based on that however, I simply don't see that as being the case. My "alarmist" views are based on a bit more information than the average bear has at their disposal.

    Meant to show that assassination of scientists, sanctions and Stuxnet aren't hindering technical advances.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/...WFR_story.html
    In line with what I stated above, I'll gladly concede this point as well provided that you can demonstrate that the progress we are witnessing is unimpeded relative to the progress we would have witnessed had none of those acts occurred. I won't go so far as to claim the opposite is occurring either, I'm simply pointing out the peril of assuming a negligible effect here.

    IMO the acts of killing scientists and planting the Stuxnet thing have yet to yield fruit (assuming they ever will....)


    What implications, if any, does self-sufficiency in the nuclear fuel cycle have for inspections? The Reuters article suggests it gives Iran a political fulcrum, but doesn't say what.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/...WFR_story.html
    This is correct, as far as I understand the politics of it. Iran may now claim the enrichment activities as a natural part of the process of producing fuel for the reactors. Plutonium produced by reprocessing may likewise be used for MOX reactors in the future. They've always done so, but now they have an actual product to show the world. Its basically a case for plausible deniability.

    IMO, Iran still needs to justify why it requires the volume of centrifuges that it does to produce fuel for the few reactors it has. They're being run day and night.

    High-ranking officials from the IAEA are scheduled to visit Iran on Tuesday for a second round of talks, possibly signaling that Iran is ready to provide more transparency on the intentions of its nuclear program. Such transparency is a key demand by the United Nation in recent resolutions against Iran.
    and at the same time. If Iran is serious about being open, why is the second round even necessary? (its more like the tenth round, but who's counting at this point...)

    Until said transparency is in place, I won't hold my breath. Been there, done that.

    Mark Fitzpatrick, a non-proliferation expert at the International Ins ute of Strategic Studies, told CBS News that the Iranians have been talking for years about a third generation of centrifuges, but there is little tangible evidence to suggest they have actually even progressed to that stage - let alone a functional fourth generation.

    "It's probably a lot of hyperbole," Fitzpatrick said of Wednesday's announcement. He has not heard of a fourth-generation centrifuge in Iran and doubts one even exists there.
    Agreed. I've worked with Mark before and for the most part the thinking is that Iran is simply flapping its wings in an effort to fan the flames and create more chaos.

    That said, it's not all about how modern the equipment is. First and second gen centrifuges are perfectly capable of performing this task as well, albeit with less efficiency. This is where the volume of centrifuges that the Iranians possess becomes worrisome. The sheer size of the facilities leaves one asking many questions.


    Asked whether Iran actually has the capacity to "break out" a nuclear weapons program from its current enrichment and reactor facilities, he said that even if the regime ignored Western threats and decided to enrich uranium to the weapons grade level - 80 percent or higher - it would still take more than a year to cobble together a crude nuclear weapon.
    A guess tbh. And tbh, my guess would be as valuable as his at this point so I won't bother.

    While the production of the uranium fuel plates is a significant milestone for Iran, the material involved is only viable for use in creating medical radioactive isotopes and indicates no advances in a clandestine weapons program that the U.S. and its allies insist Iran is pursuing.

    Fitzpatrick said the locally produced rods are "clearly for producing isotopes for medical purposes; it's nothing to do with nuclear weapons."
    He's probably correct........for now. They must crawl before they walk. Unfortunately this does nothing to debunk the theory that Iran is in pursuit of a weapon, nor does it address the rapidity with which it might be doing so.

    In short, grab a beer and some popcorn. Enjoy the show.

  3. #53
    selbstverständlich Agloco's Avatar
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    not even South Korea will stop it's Iran oil imports at our request. how much blood did we spill for those assholes?
    Weren't they slowed down?

  4. #54
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    If I didn't have firsthand knowledge, I'd gladly concede this point. Based that however, I simply don't see that as being the case. My "alarmist" views are based on a bit more information than the average bear has at their disposal.
    Ok. I understand why you can't say much more than that.
    In line with what I stated above, I'll gladly concede this point as well provided that you can demonstrate that the progress we are witnessing is unimpeded relative to the progress we would have witnessed had none of those acts occurred. I won't go so far as to claim the opposite is occurring either, I'm simply pointing out the peril of assuming a negligible effect here.
    I did not do so.

    Operative words: "meant to show," by which I meant to emphasize the propaganda value of the announcement.
    IMO the acts of killing scientists and planting the Stuxnet thing have yet to yield fruit (assuming they ever will....)
    http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...81D24Q20120214
    This is correct, as far as I understand the politics of it. Iran may now claim the enrichment activities as a natural part of the process of producing fuel for the reactors. Plutonium produced by reprocessing may likewise be used for MOX reactors in the future. They've always done so, but now they have an actual product to show the world. Its basically a case for plausible deniability.
    Thanks for fleshing this out.
    IMO, Iran still needs to justify why it requires the volume of centrifuges that it does to produce fuel for the few reactors it has. They're being run day and night.
    Is there anything besides a nuclear weapons program that could account for it?
    Until said transparency is in place, I won't hold my breath. Been there, done that.
    What would that transparency consist of? Or, if you like, how is Iran not transparent now?
    That said, it's not all about how modern the equipment is. First and second gen centrifuges are perfectly capable of performing this task as well, albeit with less efficiency. This is where the volume of centrifuges that the Iranians possess becomes worrisome. The sheer size of the facilities leaves one asking many questions.
    What questions, if you don't mind?
    A guess tbh. And tbh, my guess would be as valuable as his at this point so I won't bother.
    Fair enough.
    Last edited by Winehole23; 02-15-2012 at 11:56 AM.

  5. #55
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    Iran is turning to barter - offering gold bullion in overseas vaults or tankerloads of oil - in return for food as new financial sanctions have hurt its ability to import basic staples for its 74 million people, commodities traders said Thursday.
    http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...8180SF20120209

  6. #56
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    Another consequence of allowing nations to freely pursue nuclear arms. One that's simply dismissed out of hand (or more likely not even considered) by many on this board. The Turks will be close behind no doubt.
    Mutually assured destruction sure stopped much of Europe and the western world from going to war post WWII. Pretty good consequence IMO.

    Not to say more weapons are good, but the respect that ensued because of that capability was unparalleled. Maybe that respect route should be attempted. Hmm.

    I propose that the only way to find out is to take action. Such is my problem with Pauls approach, as much as I would like to buy into it. IMO ultimately, this will require an intervention of some sort. Deep down, I feel that the diplomacy ship has sailed and we've missed it by a country mile (although I think we should at least try. I don't see a justifiable reason for not doing so). I don't believe annihilating an entire country is warranted or necessary though. What to do exactly? <punt> I'm not in a position to answer that. I have to believe that there is some middle ground to be had though.
    Intervention is exactly why we have problems with Iran today. Rather than pushing for non-petroleum energy (nuclear included) we have supported un-democratic processes and dictators open to oil privatization in that state and beyond.


    No idea here. However I'd ask what sort of action do you believe would induce Iran to abandon it's aspirations at this point, if not sanctions?
    What aspirations? Nuclear power aspirations? Independence from a western world that has largely sought control?

    Where is the evidence they are making HEU or plutonium pits and that they want to use them in a weapon? If it exists, then why isn't it public?

    Iranians, especially the young do not like their government. However, they have motivation to distrust the west by continued measures of control.

    Most Americans don't like their government either, but that doesn't mean they would allow it to get bullied around by foreign powers.

    Should people fear nuclear weapons in general? I'd yes. What say you?

    I do know that the US and the international community continue to urge Israel to give the sanctions time to work. To me this implies that we haven't reached that point yet.
    The sanctions will only embolden them to continue their own independence. Does anyone realize why Iran is under a Islamic theocracy right now?

    Someone once said insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. That guy was a moron....


    If I didn't have firsthand knowledge, I'd gladly concede this point. Based on that however, I simply don't see that as being the case. My "alarmist" views are based on a bit more information than the average bear has at their disposal.
    Firsthand knowledge? Really. I've been to IAEA Vienna and Seibersdorf a couple of times for briefings as a Army reserve and "special guest" with DIA personnel before officially active and deployed in Iraq. I found some of the radiation laboratory practices questionable there, like leaving Am241 sources in proximity next to a gamma spec...because "it's a alpha emitter" REAL GENIUS there. (for those not familiar, Am241 also emits gamma)

    Some of those bright folks didn't know the difference between Farsi and Arabic, but that's another story.

    There was concern that Iran had negotiated with Iraq to to remove some nuclear weapons materials before the US invasion. Both the DIA and IAEA suspected this. Turned out to be completely bogus, no trace of special nuclear material anywhere...as everyone now knows. My first hand knowledge happened to be on the ground in Iraq with a team equipped with an array of radiation detectors.

    This kind of bogus intelligence is why I left nuclear non-proliferation work in the first place. Some of those DIA and IAEA guys (not saying you) love to monopolize the view, indicate a grave threat to humanity and civilization...
    yet end up harming people instead

    1 million+ Iraqis displaced, 100,000+killed (some say many more) in the name of "freedom"

    How many Iranians are suffering thanks to sanctions now?

    That's really going to win Iranian support for openness with the west.

    What do I know though, I don't work for any govt intelligence agency. We should trust the experts.


    Is there anything besides a nuclear weapons program that could account for it?
    The pending depletion of petroleum and the need for a domestic power source?
    Hmm. Naw. They want to blow up all of their holy sites (Israel included) with nuclear weapons instead, since they adore them so much.

  7. #57
    Veteran DarrinS's Avatar
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    Firsthand knowledge? Really. I've been to IAEA Vienna and Seibersdorf a couple of times for briefings as a Army reserve and "special guest" with DIA personnel before officially active and deployed in Iraq. I found some of the radiation laboratory practices questionable there, like leaving Am241 sources in proximity next to a gamma spec...because "it's a alpha emitter" REAL GENIUS there. (for those not familiar, Am241 also emits gamma)

    There was concern that Iran had negotiated with Iraq to to remove some nuclear weapons materials before the US invasion. Both the DIA and IAEA suspected this. Turned out to be completely bogus, no trace of special nuclear material anywhere...as everyone now knows. My first hand knowledge happened to be on the ground in Iraq with a team equipped with an array of radiation detectors.

    This kind of bogus intelligence is why I left nuclear non-proliferation work in the first place. Some of those DIA and IAEA guys (not saying you) love to monopolize the view, indicate a grave threat to humanity and civilization...
    yet end up harming people instead.

    Bradley Manning? Is this you?

  8. #58
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    The Wall Street Journal is troubled that the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs is not irrational:
    In a single sound bite, General Dempsey managed to tell the Iranians they can breathe easier because Israel’s main ally is opposed to an attack on Iran, such attack isn’t likely to work in any case, and the U.S. fears Iran’s retaliation. It’s as if General Dempsey wanted to ratify Iran’s rhetoric that the regime is a fearsome global military threat.
    Viewed more soberly, Gen. Dempsey’s statement was an attempt to reduce worsening tensions and to state the merely obvious. A “successful” Israeli strike will delay Iran’s nuclear program by just a few years, and the U.S. has good reason to be concerned about retaliation against our forces in response to an action that would be widely perceived as U.S.-supported and approved, so there is no reason to incur dangerous risks by launching an attack that isn’t going to achieve its objective. Reinforcing the impression that an Israeli attack is inevitable gives Iran the incentive to concede nothing and to assume that the diplomatic track is nothing more than a distraction. If the U.S. were not openly discouraging Israel from attacking, Iranian hard-liners would conclude that nothing can be done to satisfy Israel and the U.S. in any case, so they may as well brace for what is coming.


    The WSJ makes the same slippery use of the word rational that I was discussing yesterday:
    This would be the same rational Iran that refuses to compromise on its nuclear plans despite increasingly damaging global sanctions, and the same prudent actor that has sent agents around the world to bomb Israeli and Saudi targets, allegedly including in a Washington, D.C. restaurant.
    Is it actually irrational for a government that perceives enrichment as a national right to continue to insist on that right despite intense pressure from other governments to give it up? Not really. If the Iranian government perceives the nuclear program as important for Iranian national interests, why is it going to sacrifice those interests to satisfy avowedly hostile states? Let’s understand that Iran is not just being called on to compromise, but to capitulate completely on enrichment. It is possible to be rationally self-interested and nationalistic at the same time. Even rational actors have non-negotiable positions that they are unwilling to abandon.
    http://www.theamericanconservative.c...al-regimes-ii/

  9. #59
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    Micah Zenko provides a reality check on Iran, its nuclear program, and a possible Israeli attack on Iran:
    In other words, according to the heads of the IC [Intelligence Community] and DIA: 1) against all odds, the supposedly “mad Mullahs” of Tehran are endowed with the capacity for rational human thought, and thus there might be diplomatic or economic inducements that could compel an agreement on outstanding questions regarding the nuclear program; 2) the United States has at least a year; 3) Iran is not looking to start a war with the United States; and 4) Israel has not yet decided to undertake a preemptive war with Iran.
    Debating the rationality of Iran’s government with people convinced of its self-destructive irrationality sometimes seems futile. For one thing, those who insist on portraying Iran’s regime as insane and suicidal are very slippery in the way they use the word rational. According to them, a rational regime would never be antagonistic or threaten other states as Iran has been, and from there they leap to the conclusion that a state that is antagonistic is therefore willing to invite its own destruction. They make this leap even when all the evidence points to a regime intent on preserving itself. Somehow we’re supposed to believe that the Iranian government is the only one on the planet that is unwilling to preserve itself and incapable of knowing what its self-interest is.



    U.S. and Israeli media regularly discuss how and when to start an unprovoked war against Iran to punish it for its “crime” of enriching uranium. The American and Israeli governments leave the door open to starting that war. Despite the significant costs such a war would impose on the U.S., Israel, the region, and world, it is not the governments contemplating how to start this war that are considered to be acting irrationally. Instead, it is still the Iranian leadership that is viewed as unhinged and dangerous.
    http://www.theamericanconservative.c...ional-regimes/

  10. #60
    selbstverständlich Agloco's Avatar
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    Travels have taken me far and wide, and will continue to do so for some time. I'll attempt to continue our dialogue as I can.

    I did not do so.

    Operative words: "meant to show," by which I meant to emphasize the propaganda value of the announcement.
    Ah, I mis-understood. Apologies.

    Is there anything besides a nuclear weapons program that could account for it?
    In the short term, one could make a strong case for them simply wanting to get their nuclear program up and running in the shortest amount of time possible. Sure, that's plausible. But now that the reactor is up and running we still see centrifuges being put in place daily and run 24/7. Not sure where I can go with that......

    Perhaps a massive effort for Iran to become the worlds leading exporter of medical radioisotopes? That might sound sarcastic, but that's really all I can come up with. Enriching to 20% doesn't take much so they'll have a lot of it lying around at this pace. Many times more than would be needed for domestic medical isotope production. That said, I'm all ears as to what other possibilities exist.

    What would that transparency consist of? Or, if you like, how is Iran not transparent now?
    http://www.cnn.com/2012/02/24/world/...html?hpt=hp_t1

    For starters the inspectors who were in invited could be allowed to inspect the key facilities and equipment (read: military) that they were there to look at in the first place. From experience, this was implicit in the visitation agreement and hashed out before the news was made public. Most people are led to believe that research facilities are the only ones which are fair game but the scope of inspections are quite broad, and necessarily so.

    This cat and mouse game is nothing new to me. Hence my statement towards the beginning of this thread about not holding my breath until full disclosure is had.

    A simple explanation as to exactly how much uranium is being enriched to 20% would be a good start point.

    What questions, if you don't mind?
    Boiling it down: scope. I alluded to the fact that Iran's facilities and production were disproportionate to the goals they have set out publicly. Now with each passing report or incident comes new evidence that enrichment continues unabated and, by some accounts, has increased in tempo. I can't honestly say that I'm surprised.

    As an aside, this sort of thing is better spoken about over a beer and brisket tbh.

  11. #61
    e^(i*pi) + 1 = 0 MannyIsGod's Avatar
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    Bradley Manning? Is this you?
    Did you serve, Darrin? Its bad enough you're a stupid , but now you're calling people who actually served traitors out of a political vendetta? All kidding and joking on this forum aside, you seem like a petty excuse for a man.

  12. #62
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    Travels have taken me far and wide, and will continue to do so for some time. I'll attempt to continue our dialogue as I can.
    I appreciate the reply. Thanks.
    Ah, I mis-understood. Apologies.
    Eh, don't sweat it. It's so easy to go astray online. Like life, you can't ever really untangle it.
    In the short term, one could make a strong case for them simply wanting to get their nuclear program up and running in the shortest amount of time possible. Sure, that's plausible. But now that the reactor is up and running we still see centrifuges being put in place daily and run 24/7. Not sure where I can go with that......
    Is is unusual or con uous to run centrifuges continuously, 24/7?
    Perhaps a massive effort for Iran to become the worlds leading exporter of medical radioisotopes? That might sound sarcastic, but that's really all I can come up with. Enriching to 20% doesn't take much so they'll have a lot of it lying around at this pace. Many times more than would be needed for domestic medical isotope production. That said, I'm all ears as to what other possibilities exist.
    That Borat poster suggested domestic power generation, Is he full of it?
    For starters the inspectors who were in invited could be allowed to inspect the key facilities and equipment (read: military) that they were there to look at in the first place. From experience, this was implicit in the visitation agreement and hashed out before the news was made public. Most people are led to believe that research facilities are the only ones which are fair game but the scope of inspections are quite broad, and necessarily so.
    Is it customary or usual for NPT signatories to submit to inspection of military facilities by the IAEA and so forth, upon demand? Honest question. I have no idea what the right answer is...
    This cat and mouse game is nothing new to me. Hence my statement towards the beginning of this thread about not holding my breath until full disclosure is had.
    Who is the cat and who is the mouse!
    A simple explanation as to exactly how much uranium is being enriched to 20% would be a good start point.
    which is the technical threshold for what, please?
    Boiling it down: scope. I alluded to the fact that Iran's facilities and production were disproportionate to the goals they have set out publicly. Now with each passing report or incident comes new evidence that enrichment continues unabated and, by some accounts, has increased in tempo. I can't honestly say that I'm surprised.
    As a matter of national pride, why should they stop?
    As an aside, this sort of thing is better spoken about over a beer and brisket tbh.
    +1

  13. #63
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    US Intelligence Community: Iran Is Not Actively Building a Nuclear Weapon

    this intelligence assessment was released in the past 48 hours:

    As U.S. and Israeli officials talk publicly about the prospect of a military strike against Iran’s nuclear program, one fact is often overlooked: U.S. intelligence agencies don’t believe Iran is actively trying to build an atomic bomb.

    A highly classified U.S. intelligence assessment circulated to policymakers early last year largely affirms that view, originally made in 2007. Both reports, known as national intelligence estimates, conclude that Tehran halted efforts to develop and build a nuclear warhead in 2003.

    The most recent report, which represents the consensus of 16 U.S. intelligence agencies, indicates that Iran is pursuing research that could put it in a position to build a weapon, but that it has not sought to do so.

    Although Iran continues to enrich uranium at low levels, U.S. officials say they have not seen evidence that has caused them to significantly revise that judgment. Senior U.S. officials say Israel does not dispute the basic intelligence or analysis.

    http://news.firedoglake.com/2012/02/...uclear-weapon/

  14. #64
    Veteran jack sommerset's Avatar
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    That takes a load off my mind, buttons. Great post and thank the good lord he is watching out for us. God bless.

  15. #65
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    Go thump your Bible, but will not protect you from your I-love-wars-I-dont-fight-or-pay-for paranoia.

  16. #66
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    Muahahahahaha! I know I've been saying stuff like this the past decade but this time it's real!

    I'm gonna get you guys!! Booooooooooooooooo

  17. #67
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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  18. #68
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    could be. What deal is made, the Repugs are already calling it a "bad deal", because anything from Obama is bad.

    If a deal is made, and analysis shows it really reduces the Iranian nuclear bomb threat, it will be a huge win for Obama and Kerry, and a head-exploder for the Repugs, who would rather have a nuclear-armed Iran than an Obama-disarmed Iran.

  19. #69
    selbstverständlich Agloco's Avatar
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    I appreciate the reply. Thanks.
    Eh, don't sweat it. It's so easy to go astray online. Like life, you can't ever really untangle it.
    Is is unusual or con uous to run centrifuges continuously, 24/7?
    That Borat poster suggested domestic power generation, Is he full of it?
    Is it customary or usual for NPT signatories to submit to inspection of military facilities by the IAEA and so forth, upon demand? Honest question. I have no idea what the right answer is...
    Who is the cat and who is the mouse!
    which is the technical threshold for what, please?
    As a matter of national pride, why should they stop?
    +1
    Wine, I've realized about 2 years too late that I never got the chance to respond to you on this. I'll work on something in the coming weeks. Travel should allow for more leisure time soon. My apologies.

  20. #70
    my unders, my frgn whites pgardn's Avatar
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    could be. What deal is made, the Repugs are already calling it a "bad deal", because anything from Obama is bad.

    If a deal is made, and analysis shows it really reduces the Iranian nuclear bomb threat, it will be a huge win for Obama and Kerry, and a head-exploder for the Repugs, who would rather have a nuclear-armed Iran than an Obama-disarmed Iran.
    Republicans seemed dead set on exploding them.

    This is a country that actually is Westernized enough thru the young folk to come around to sanity.
    I don't believe in the long run Iran is nearly as radicalized as what we have let loose in ISIS.
    This population is not nearly as backwards as some would make them.

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