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do you any source to demonstrate that opposing PGs are scoring more on TP than on the rest of the league ?
Manu Ginobili
Tony Parker
Richard Jefferson
Gary Neal
Danny Green
Kawhi Leonard
My comment about him passing the ball to Manu and getting whistled for a turnover had nothing to do with Manu's turnovers. I was actually just pointing out that if Tony decided to pass the ball to Manu he would be whistled for a turnover because Manu will be sitting behind the bench in a suit. I apologize for any confusion.
Yes, but as of right now I think it's apparent Tony Parker is the most consistent and resilient.
I would just like us all to take a moment out of our day to recognize him for his brilliance, selflessness, for ude, leadership and toughness throughout this season. He's played at an incredibly high level and has been (according to the voters) our most dependable player.
Thanks Tony! And congratulations on yet another All-Star selection.
do you any source to demonstrate that opposing PGs are scoring more on TP than on the rest of the league ?
It's Tony and it's not even a contest. It's because his game is about the same every night. The dude is just a ball of talent, a master in the paint and now that he has his jumper going and has targets to pass to, he's in another dimension.
If Parker went down due to injury, we would be lucky to play .500 ball even against the weaker teams.
Manu was actually so good for the first 5 games of the season, that his overall PER is still high enough to place him 6th in the league (Tony is rank 22)-
No but seriously, Manu's PER for the first 5 games was actually something like 35-37. His PER has plummeted by 10-12 points as a result of his poor showings in the (few) games that he was back, and it'll no doubt plummet more once he comes back if he's not able to put up the usual 18/5/5 in ~30 minutes with TS%>55
Lebron and Wade boast the top 2 PERs in the league. Hollinger playoff odds puts Miami at a scorching 45% chance to win a championship this year.
Chicago/OKC/San Antonio are all around 13-14%.
No problem.
He has played this well before.
He has played well and his All-Star selection is certainly well deserved. Hope he keeps it up.
That's because Manu is a better FT shooter and is taller and knows how to sell a foul.Apparently it isn't just me that thinks putting the ball in Manu's hands with the game on the line is a better idea than putting it in Tony's hands.
Frankly, Manu was bailing Tony's apathetic play when the season started.
Tony is balling right now, and he should get all the credit. No doubt about it.
It's not because Manu is a better player though on a grand scale he probably is.
Well, I can give you a great example, actually.
OK, so... we all would agree that Nash is a bad defender, correct? Well, Nash's opposition at PG has a PER of about 4 points less than Parker's, which is a VERY big difference. Also, Nash does not have Tim Duncan guarding the rim for him.
No but seriously, Manu's PER for the first 5 games was actually something like 35-37. His PER has plummeted by 10-12 points as a result of his poor showings in the (few) games that he was back, and it'll no doubt plummet more once he comes back if he's not able to put up the usual 18/5/5 in ~30 minutes with TS%>55
Lebron and Wade boast the top 2 PERs in the league. Hollinger playoff odds puts Miami at a scorching 45% chance to win a championship this year.
Chicago/OKC/San Antonio are all around 13-14%.
Manu is a great player. At his best, he's one of the best guards to ever play the game. But the things that have made Manu great have also worn his body down. The fact that he's still playing at age 34 is a testament to how tough he really is. It is, however, understandable that he is no longer as dependable as Tony. While I genuinely think Tony has been just as fearless as Manu, especially when attacking the paint, he's 5 years younger than Manu and has managed to stay relatively healthy throughout his career. I guess we can only hope he will still be as dependable 5 years from now.
Who's the highest scoring PG in the game?
How many times has Nash faced him?
Why do you think Nash has a rep for poor defense?
Manu is a better one on one driver than Tony is.
He's capable of doing what you won't expect (well he'll go left though
Tony's done exceptionally well this season in "clutch time" -
http://www.82games.com/1112/CSORT11.HTM
38.5 points per 48 minutes of clutch time with a terrific FG% to boot. He's shooting 93% on free throws in the clutch as well. That's probably about as good as Manu has shot in the clutch in previous seasons (to the person who mentioned Manu as a better FT option).
Now, don't get me wrong, I actually agree with you. I think Manu has proven to be clutch (especially with free throws) over many more seasons, but this season Tony has done a pretty good job, and it's encouraging.
not surprising. It's been tony's team for years. Hopefully manu will be healthy come PO time, he's our best role player.
Still waiting for a response that's never going to come? Truth of it is that he's just as bad on defense as I made him out to be, and he's got nothing to refute it with.Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 15 (7 members and 8 guests)
_JaG, Brazil, hemann82, ElNono, Milo, timvp, mathbzh
His DEF rating is good for 31st in the NBA, among POINT GUARDS. If you want to go by +/- stats, then Matt Bonner is the best player on the team.
hard to bail him out if he's injured unfortunately.
I miss 2005 Manu.
Nah, sorry, I don't have the energy to fight this battle. If someone thinks Ginobili is a great defender and Parker is a horrible defender, they are too far gone to save. Such a person must only view good defense as getting steals or drawing charges. Either that or they are so hypnotized by CoM that it's pointless.This should be good...
To any rational observer of the last ten years, it's pretty obvious that Parker and Ginobili are pretty much equal defensively. In one-on-one defense, Parker is better. In team defense, Ginobili is better.
If you need a defensive play to be made, Ginobili is the guy who is more likely to do so. If you need to defend a scorer, Parker is the better option. For example, look at the 2007 Nuggets series when Parker was put on AI and Ginobili was put on Steve Blake even though Blake was the point guard.
But it's not an argument worth fighting. Partly because TP's defensive intensity comes and goes during the regular season. However, when he's really locked in, Parker is definitely in the "good" category. Not quite All-NBA but only a notch or two below that. In the last two championship runs, he's been damn good defensively in each run.
This season? He started off slow but he's been giving a quality effort as of late. You know it's a good sign when someone who is bashing Parker's defense has to go back 25 games ago when Ridnour scored 17 points against the Spurs
Off the top of my head, I can't think of a point guard who has had a really good game against him recently. But whatever, Parker sucks, Ginobili rules ... aren't going to change many minds at this point.
oh and I'm pretty sure timvp has the data you want to back it up... he is the guy doing two pages of graph and stat analysis every other day.
Speaking of what you feel when you look the game, my feeling has always been TP in RS is below average defender. I do think he is doing well the basics the spurs system is asking him to do but mostly I think he is coasting a little. Now in POs, TP has always played more than decent D.
Another point that sometimes we overlook is the fact he is a scoring PG put normally quite of a pressure on the opponent PG (see Nash). The other point is I think the spurs system asks him to run a lot.
With Parker off the court, the Spurs are their worst defensively. Like I said.
But whatever. You win. Parker sucks, Spurs should trade him, his defense is obviously a liability, blah, blah.
Congrats.
Without question, the OP's answer is Parker.
You started off promising, but then, unfortunately... you went down hill.
I really hate to destroy the owner of the forum I'm posting on, but here goes:If someone thinks Ginobili is a great defender and Parker is a horrible defender, they are too far gone to save. Such a person must only view good defense as getting steals or drawing charges. Either that or they are so hypnotized by CoM that it's pointless.
To any rational observer of the last ten years, it's pretty obvious that Parker and Ginobili are pretty much equal defensively. In one-on-one defense, Parker is better. In team defense, Ginobili is better.
If you need a defensive play to be made, Ginobili is the guy who is more likely to do so. If you need to defend a scorer, Parker is the better option. For example, look at the 2007 Nuggets series when Parker was put on AI and Ginobili was put on Steve Blake even though Blake was the point guard.
But it's not an argument worth fighting. Partly because TP's defensive intensity comes and goes during the regular season. However, when he's really locked in, Parker is definitely in the "good" category. Not quite All-NBA but only a notch or two below that. In the last two championship runs, he's been damn good defensively in each run.
This season? He started off slow but he's been giving a quality effort as of late. You know it's a good sign when someone who is bashing Parker's defense has to go back 25 games ago when Ridnour scored 17 points against the Spurs
Off the top of my head, I can't think of a point guard who has had a really good game against him recently. But whatever, Parker sucks, Ginobili rules ... aren't going to change many minds at this point.
Manu Ginobili:
Tony Parker:
I don't even want to post the net production stats, they are pretty embarrassing for Parker.
On top of that, I wasn't even really talking about this season in regards Ridnour, but LOL @ him scoring 17 on him again this year. Probably his season high. And I don't have to go back far whatsoever to see someone torching Parker. Randy Foye just did it, inexplicably. Rodney Stuckey also just recently ed him up good.
So, using this logic, you would have to agree that Matt Bonner is the best player on the San Antonio Spurs. Right?
With Parker off the court, the Spurs are their worst defensively. Like I said.
But whatever. You win. Parker sucks, Spurs should trade him, his defense is obviously a liability, blah, blah.
Congrats.
TP has always been good on defense when he uses his speed. Defense is really about staying in front of your man and TP has the most speed to be able to do that when he concentrates on it. Also he's pretty strong so he's not pushed around that easily.Nah, sorry, I don't have the energy to fight this battle. If someone thinks Ginobili is a great defender and Parker is a horrible defender, they are too far gone to save. Such a person must only view good defense as getting steals or drawing charges. Either that or they are so hypnotized by CoM that it's pointless.
To any rational observer of the last ten years, it's pretty obvious that Parker and Ginobili are pretty much equal defensively. In one-on-one defense, Parker is better. In team defense, Ginobili is better.
If you need a defensive play to be made, Ginobili is the guy who is more likely to do so. If you need to defend a scorer, Parker is the better option. For example, look at the 2007 Nuggets series when Parker was put on AI and Ginobili was put on Steve Blake even though Blake was the point guard.
But it's not an argument worth fighting. Partly because TP's defensive intensity comes and goes during the regular season. However, when he's really locked in, Parker is definitely in the "good" category. Not quite All-NBA but only a notch or two below that. In the last two championship runs, he's been damn good defensively in each run.
This season? He started off slow but he's been giving a quality effort as of late. You know it's a good sign when someone who is bashing Parker's defense has to go back 25 games ago when Ridnour scored 17 points against the Spurs
Off the top of my head, I can't think of a point guard who has had a really good game against him recently. But whatever, Parker sucks, Ginobili rules ... aren't going to change many minds at this point.
I do agree it's a bit of flawed logic to claim our D is worse with Parker sitting down.Not a good argument.
But IMO Parker's D is not that bad, he's been playing pretty good all around game the last 20+ games. He's been top 5 PG in the league in that stretch.
It's pretty stupid to call him out on his D at this point.
For me, playing well on the offensive end is never going to make me lose sight of the defensive end, and Parker is and always has been a liability on it.
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