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  1. #51
    Mr. Dignity Solid D's Avatar
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    Whottt, I have talked about this subject numerous times in here. I don't know Tim's internal mindset of why he wants to be listed as a PF, but since he left Wake Forest, he was brought in to play the PF (4) beside David and David was always listed as a Center (5). Tim is not a leaper, so he's never jumped that well at the opening tip against some of the 7 footers, a traditional Center function.

    As long as Shaq is playing, he will be considered the top Center because of his sheer force in the paint. Tim has a fair chance at being considered the top player at his position if he is officially listed as PF. So maybe, that's the reason Tim likes to be listed as such. Managing perception is as important a factor as anything in many areas of life and not just in sports.

    The reality is that the 4 and 5 positions in many offenses are basically the same function. It provides for more flexibility on ball reversals and moving the defense around when you can present posts on either side or high and low. Henry Iba's motion offense passed down through the generations to the Knights, Suttons, etc. and motion-based offenses like the Flex, Princeton, or even the Triangle can have both the 4 or 5 as post players.

    When a post player can back screen out on the floor (15-18 feet) for a wing player and have the range to shoot from there like Duncan can, it changes the strategy as to who defends them, thus Duncan tends to draw the smaller of the two bigs on him.

    Tim has such a strong base and big backside that he can play with his back to the basket and play a traditional pivot's role. Pop uses Tim as both a 4 and 5, and it often depends on who's in the game, offensively and defensively.

    The Jump Center, for which we get the shortened name "Center" (back when a jump ball was held after every made basket) has morphed over time into the tallest or one of the tallest players with an inside presence. It's not as clear-cut as it used to be.

    In fact, a case can be made for the Spurs using Tim as a Center/Pivot the way the Lakers used to use Mikan as a Center in the pivot, as the pivotal hub of a weaving and pass-to-the open man offense. Even though Pop may call it 4-down on the block and there's a little less weave and more cut through and move for spacing, he is still the "Center" of the offense. But that's playing with the name Center and not really using it in it's original context.

    It's all a management of perception and not necessarily reality. Tim is a post/pivot player but officially he wants to be called a Power Forward. Whatever...
    Who's the Center in these pairs of Bigs and why?

    A. Stoudamire 6'10-245, S. Hunter 7'0", 240
    B. Wallace 6'9-245, R. Wallace 6'11", 230
    P. Gasol 7'0"-240, L. Wright 6'11-240
    J. Foster 6'11"-240, J. O'Neal 6'11-240

  2. #52
    Alleged Michigander ChumpDumper's Avatar
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    But you look at where Duncan gets the ball the most...he's well outside of the paint...4 down he gets the ball outside of the paint...further outside than Drob ever got it.
    He gets outside the paint because of his reliance on footwork and the three second rule, and again it depends on the matchup -- if it's an easy matchup he'll back his man down into the paint before he even gets the ball, turn into him and put up the chippie. Otherwise he'll stay on the outside block where he can dribble a few times and make some moves without worrying about a three second call.

  3. #53
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    Who's the Center in these pairs of Bigs and why?

    A. Stoudamire 6'10-245, S. Hunter 7'0", 240
    Hunter...because he can defend bigger player better and he's got less of a midrange game.



    B. Wallace 6'9-245, R. Wallace 6'11", 230
    B Wallace, because he's a better shotblocker and rebounder and he's got no mid range game.


    P. Gasol 7'0"-240, L. Wright 6'11-240
    L. Wright, because he's got no midrange game.


    J. Foster 6'11"-240, J. O'Neal 6'11-240
    Foster because he's got no midrange game.

    It's nearly all because of offensive reasons...


    Why is Shaq a C?

    Why isn't Garnett?

    Why isn't Dirk?

    Offensive reasons more thn any other...the more range a guy has on his J the more likely he is to be considered a PF(and get traditional plays run for him) in todays NBA game...

    The secondary reasons are because of shotblocking ability and size...

    Duncan has the best C game of anyone outside of Shaq and maybe the best defensively...and he's got the best PF game offensively(arguably) and defensively(in the history of the NBA)...

  4. #54
    Alleged Michigander ChumpDumper's Avatar
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    Ultimately I'm with Solid on this one. Since Duncan can and does score from anywhere centers and power forwards traditionally score, what is the actual distinction on offense and why would the plays called for him change if you called him a center? Would he suddenly get more plays called for him in the paint directly under the basket? Of course not, the plays would still rely largely on matchups and what the defense shows him.

    My theory has more to do with the defensive assignment that has traditionally gone to the guy who happened to be called the center in the Spurs system. If Tim took that role his defensive play would change a great deal indeed.

    PF and C are generally misnomers in the Spurs system -- I think ideally Pop would do away with the guard distinctions as well given his desire to have any of the smaller players be able to bring the ball up at any given time.

  5. #55
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    How often did Shaq take the toughest defensive assignment with LA? Never. About as often as Duncan did...


    I agree that Duncan plays C all the time...in fact I'd say he plays his best when he is playing C...

    Again..the point I am trying to make(and failing miserably at doing so)...I don't think Duncan cares what he is called, I don't think he's averse to playjng C...I just think that if he has a preference...he'd rather have a guy that can play under the basket than one that can't...IE he'd rather have a traditional C than a traditional PF...

    I think he likes playing further away from the basket than C's traditionally(IE the ones that have no J) do, in 4 down he's not lining up where a C does...he still well outside of the paint....and if we got a guy that couldn't play under the basket and could only be effective from mid...he'd get less chances to utilize his full skill set.

  6. #56
    Alleged Michigander ChumpDumper's Avatar
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    How often did Shaq take the toughest defensive assignment with LA? Never. About as often as Duncan did...
    Sure, but you can't get away with calling Shaq a PF -- ever. I'm saying it's a situation unique to the Spurs and the relative unimportance of the labels themselves.
    and if we got a guy that couldn't play under the basket and could only be effective from mid...he'd get less chances to utilize his full skill set.
    He wouldn't be able to use his full skill set either if the Spurs always had a center standing in the paint ruining the spacing and making it much easier to put a big double team on Tim.

    I think we can agree that only Tim knows the real reason and our guesses are only that.

  7. #57
    SW: Hot As Hell
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    It's simple. Forward sounds better than "forter" or "cenward"

  8. #58
    From Down... Under xcoriate's Avatar
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    ^^ and there you have it

  9. #59
    The Great Eight Ocotillo's Avatar
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    You can't assume the same will happen with every pick the Spurs make from now on.
    Sure we can, we are Spurs homers!

  10. #60
    I LIKE THEM BOOTY'S batman2883's Avatar
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    you needed to ask something like this:
    after Scola & Ian join Duncan on the 1st team all NBA which one do we bring off the bench as the energy guy?

    when you dream... dream big
    Id have to Ian has to come off the bench, Scola, already has proven himself worthy in the European league, as well as in the Olympics, Ian still has to take on a full barrage of traning. I believe once Scola makes it to San Antonio, Duncan will slowly begin to work at the 5 position.

  11. #61
    The OL' Perfessor wildbill2u's Avatar
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    I know he hates being called a 5, but he in all reality plays like one, so once Ian gets here, is he going to be the 4 and Duncan going to be the 5?

    Also, if he is as good as I am getting the impression the Spurs think he is going to be, which due to the general lack of literature on him it's been slightly diffucult to gauge, is Duncan going to begin deffering to Ian the way Robinson was deffering to Duncan? Bilieve it or not, Duncan's apex is fast approaching, he is going to be 32 in 4 years, by which time Ian will be 22, and generally speaking 32 is the point at which many big men begin to decline. Even shaq's numbers were down significantly this year, after he turned 32 years old.

    I intent this thread to be about Duncan more than this Ian chap, so tell me what you think about where he will be as a player when Ian gets here.
    Way to premature to ask these questions. He may NEVER arrive.

  12. #62
    I am a locopatriot
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    Duncan at C position is his game at Olympics. He was unstopable and ultimately useless for his team. He likes to control the game with smarts, not being just a man playing a role.

    PF is more to his liking, b/c he can do something for the team, that team cannot do for team with him in C position.

  13. #63
    Pimp Marcus Bryant's Avatar
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    Spurs fans getting ahead of themselves part MCXXXIV.

  14. #64
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    So who do ya'll think should induct Ian into the Hall?

  15. #65
    Mahinmi in ? picnroll's Avatar
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    Couple of possibilties

    1. If Duncan says he'll play center that means Spurs will go out and get a primary PF and he'll be stuck playing center 90% of the time. If he says he wants to play PF they'll go out and get a Center, even a so so one, and he'll at least get an even split at C and PF.

    2. If he plays center on D then he's going to have to be constantly wrestling the centers in the low post where they're either trying to score or get rebounding postion. He's already having to wrestle on the offense end for position. All that wrestling wears you out and ultimately isn't very good for the body, particularly the back.

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