Not sold on danny green

[dallasmaverickslose]

That's too harsh, IMO.

First of all, Bonner never has had a good playoff series -- whether he was "needed" or not -- so just based on that, Green has surpassed Bonner. Bonner has a long, painful history of choking that even can be traced to how he tails off at the end of the regular season. Green had one horrific series.

(And we shouldn't short-change how good he was in the first two series. He was averaging 10+ points in less than 25 MPG on 50% shooting from the floor and >45% shooting on three-pointers. His D was also much better than usual. Advanced stats, from plus/minus to APM to RAPM had Green as one of the best players on the whole team -- with many of those stats pointing to him as THE best player on the team. Yeah, easy compe ion but Green delivered to the maximum of his ability in the first two playoff series of his career. That's pretty darn good and should shed him of the Bonner label in itself.)

Why did Green suck* against the Thunder? I see three possibilities:

1. He choked. The pressure got to him and he couldn't withstand it.

2. He was due for some regression to the mean since he had been shooting damn near 50% on threes for the previous couple months.

3. He got unlucky and the randomness of the sport of basketball came up snake-eyes at the wrong time.

The only one of those three to be worried about is No. 1. And even then, we should only be partially worried because plenty of young players struggle early in their playoff career before adjusting to the pressure and learning to thrive. So, yeah, if we want to view Green in the worst possible light, then we can hold that series over him until he proves otherwise. IMO, what is more logical is to keep an open mind. Yes, it sucks he failed against the Thunder but there are a lot more explanations other than to say he's undoubtedly a choker.

As others have mentioned, plenty of Spurs have done poorly in their first time in the playoffs for the Spurs only to bounce back. Tony Parker destroyed Gary Payton as a rookie but he didn't carry that level of play throughout those playoffs. He, as CoM is quick to mention, had his ups and downs in 2003 ... yet he's definitely not in the Bonner category. Ginobili was up and down as a rookie in the playoffs (he shot 20-something percent in the Finals and wasn't that great against the Mavs or Suns) ... and he turned out to be the ultimate winner. , Tim Duncan wasn't that good in the Portland series in 1999.

Other examples: Stephen Jackson sucked in 2003 against the Lakers (if the Spurs lose that series, Jack would have been remembered as a choker rather than the clutch guy you remember). Bruce Bowen was terrible in his first playoff series with the Spurs (vs. the Sonics). Horry sucked in 2004. Claxton sucked for most of the 2003 playoffs. Kerr sucked every series until that Mavs series during his second stint with the Spurs.

You can go right down the line and just about every player on the Spurs has had a horrible series. Sometimes they were saved by their teammates so those series are forgotten. Sometimes they weren't saved and they are remembered as chokers. If the Spurs beat OKC and Green bouncing back against the Heat, he gets >$6M per year in free agency and is hailed as a hero ... pretty much just like Jack in 2003. It's fickle.

We need to be careful handing out Bonneritis claims. That's a serious diagnosis and one that should indicate that beyond all shadow of a doubt, a player is a choker for life and can only be trusted in the regular season. Maybe Green fits that bill but it's way too early to claim it as a certainty. One bad series does not a Bonner make.



*despite Green's sucking, the Spurs still outscored the Thunder when he was on the court during that series.

That's what I think. All players have their slump periods. That's what he's going through. Wheras, players like Blair and Bonner are career-slumpers.

[objective]

That's too harsh, IMO.

First of all, Bonner never has had a good playoff series -- whether he was "needed" or not -- so just based on that, Green has surpassed Bonner. Bonner has a long, painful history of choking that even can be traced to how he tails off at the end of the regular season. Green had one horrific series.

(And we shouldn't short-change how good he was in the first two series. He was averaging 10+ points in less than 25 MPG on 50% shooting from the floor and >45% shooting on three-pointers. His D was also much better than usual. Advanced stats, from plus/minus to APM to RAPM had Green as one of the best players on the whole team -- with many of those stats pointing to him as THE best player on the team. Yeah, easy compe ion but Green delivered to the maximum of his ability in the first two playoff series of his career. That's pretty darn good and should shed him of the Bonner label in itself.)

Why did Green suck* against the Thunder? I see three possibilities:

1. He choked. The pressure got to him and he couldn't withstand it.

2. He was due for some regression to the mean since he had been shooting damn near 50% on threes for the previous couple months.

3. He got unlucky and the randomness of the sport of basketball came up snake-eyes at the wrong time.

The only one of those three to be worried about is No. 1. And even then, we should only be partially worried because plenty of young players struggle early in their playoff career before adjusting to the pressure and learning to thrive. So, yeah, if we want to view Green in the worst possible light, then we can hold that series over him until he proves otherwise. IMO, what is more logical is to keep an open mind. Yes, it sucks he failed against the Thunder but there are a lot more explanations other than to say he's undoubtedly a choker.

As others have mentioned, plenty of Spurs have done poorly in their first time in the playoffs for the Spurs only to bounce back. Tony Parker destroyed Gary Payton as a rookie but he didn't carry that level of play throughout those playoffs. He, as CoM is quick to mention, had his ups and downs in 2003 ... yet he's definitely not in the Bonner category. Ginobili was up and down as a rookie in the playoffs (he shot 20-something percent in the Finals and wasn't that great against the Mavs or Suns) ... and he turned out to be the ultimate winner. , Tim Duncan wasn't that good in the Portland series in 1999.

Other examples: Stephen Jackson sucked in 2003 against the Lakers (if the Spurs lose that series, Jack would have been remembered as a choker rather than the clutch guy you remember). Bruce Bowen was terrible in his first playoff series with the Spurs (vs. the Sonics). Horry sucked in 2004. Claxton sucked for most of the 2003 playoffs. Kerr sucked every series until that Mavs series during his second stint with the Spurs.

You can go right down the line and just about every player on the Spurs has had a horrible series. Sometimes they were saved by their teammates so those series are forgotten. Sometimes they weren't saved and they are remembered as chokers. If the Spurs beat OKC and Green bouncing back against the Heat, he gets >$6M per year in free agency and is hailed as a hero ... pretty much just like Jack in 2003. It's fickle.

We need to be careful handing out Bonneritis claims. That's a serious diagnosis and one that should indicate that beyond all shadow of a doubt, a player is a choker for life and can only be trusted in the regular season. Maybe Green fits that bill but it's way too early to claim it as a certainty. One bad series does not a Bonner make.



*despite Green's sucking, the Spurs still outscored the Thunder when he was on the court during that series.

I already posted that I might be too harsh with the Bonner tag, and already noted he's had series where he was likely better than Bonner ever was.

The advanced stats for the other two series show their flaws . . . he wasn't the best player. Just like Bonner has never been the Spurs best player all those times his numbers made him out to be the Spurs MVP.

All these past bad series of Spurs gone by are all true. BUT . . . Bonner was still Bonner. What does this mean? It means some people (like me) had Bonner pegged years, and I mean years, before anyone else and before he had years and years of failure to finally convince others. And there are still Bonner loyalists hiding in the weeds, skulking about their plus/minus shrines. Unfortunately, I don't think Green does enough to stay on the court when his shot isn't falling (or when he passes up shots) in a contested playoff series. His over-rated defense couldn't keep him in the rotation against OKC. Having good on-floor numbers when playing with Duncan, Diaw, Parker, and Leonard doesn't carry a lot with me. Maybe that's on Pop, and a Pop mistake in the postseason would be logical considering all of Pop's typical shenanigans, but I'm not there with you guys.

I don't trust Danny Green in the playoffs. I didn't think he was anything special when he first started getting minutes. I still don't. He's better that I thought, but I still don't see it.

I do trust Kawhi Leonard. And it's not because of some speculative fondness for his absence or weird church obsessions (I don't take part in that stuff). It's because when I watch him, I see a player I can trust. I see someone who can stick on the court even if he's missing shots, or passing up shots, or not even getting the ball.

If Green proves me wrong, great. I have no problem admitting mistakes. If Kawhi proves me wrong, then that's terrible, but I'd still admit it.

Let's just agree to it, with regards to the le of the thread: You guys buy Danny Green in the playoffs. I don't.

[Paranoid Pop]

What is inarguably Bonnerish ois his skillset, aside from the 3 ball he can't do , it's too easy to shutdown come playoff time vs serious teams, that's why they can't have playoff success. It's not even mental, it's just what it is, you're a SG and can't finish at the rim, can't really pass, have an ugly off the dribble game, then bad things will happen when you got real playoff defense in front of you. And his D is overrated.

Anyway he's good enough to get us something good via trade, that's a huge already and I'm thankful for that, hopefully the FO doesn't pull a Bonner...

Also, kinda off topic but it makes my eyes bleed when I see post mentioning that Pop is some kind of Guardiola playing total basketball when he's playing Danny Greens and Matt Bonners.

Total basketball would be something like : TP KY Boris Derrick-Williams Tim, you can switch the defense at any position basically, the monkeyballers can hit the 3, rebound and defend, the other 3 can do anything with the ball.

[ThaBigFundamental21]

I just want to see Green start playing Defense again. I really haven't seen it all all from this year. Just bombing 3's and not locking anyone down won't get it done for the Spurs. Especially not from someone who starts.

[benefactor]

Maybe you'll find a Barry or two.

Well played.

[Spurs7794]

All these past bad series of Spurs gone by are all true. BUT . . . Bonner was still Bonner. What does this mean? It means some people (like me) had Bonner pegged years, and I mean years, before anyone else and before he had years and years of failure to finally convince others.

One thing though...I think theres a HUGE difference between Bonner and Green. Ever since Bonner became a Spur, he was hesitant in crunch time. Anyone who knows basketball could tell he wasn't going to be a big time player. The reason I don't think Green is like Bonner is that he just kept shooting in the WCF last year and didn't just pussy foot around. Sure he sucked badly, but he kept firing away in the 4th quarter of game 2 as the Thunder came charging back. While that isn't always a great attribute, I think his missing alot of shots is immensely different from Bonner getting rid of the ball like it's plutonium. I firmly believe that he had a good chance to shoot his way out of the funk if Pop hadn't messed things up and changed the lineup in game 5.

[DapDaGenius]

I like Green for what I know he is able to offer the team, but I dislike him for his inconsistency. I think he'll be worth keeping if he could just be consistent....oh and not choke in the playoffs.

Also, I'd love it if the Spurs could somehow, by some chance get Rudy Gay on the team.

[Malik Hairston]

I've been skeptical of Danny Green from the beginning, he hasn't done anything to change my perception..agreed with objective, as usual..

I acknowledge that it's certainly possible that Green could have suffered from one poor series and has plenty of time to turn his playoff career around..however, it is very easy for a good defensive team to exploit a one-dimensional offensive player in the playoffs..Green cannot dribble, he can't drive, he can't finish..he's merely a spot-up shooter, albeit a very good spot-up shooter..

Last year's Jazz team was poor and the Clippers' best player was noticeably limited by injury..Green deserves credit for playing well, but defending Gordon Hayward and Chris Paul on one leg isn't special..Green is a good defensive player in certain scenarios, but he has notable flaws in a few particular facets of defense, unlike a true perimeter stopper..particularly defending through screens, where he's terrible..

I like him as a 7th/8th man, but his defense isn't good enough to negate poor shooting when he's in a slump, especially if it occurs during the playoffs(unlike a player that can create his own shot to get out of a funk)..

[therealtruth]

I already posted that I might be too harsh with the Bonner tag, and already noted he's had series where he was likely better than Bonner ever was.

The advanced stats for the other two series show their flaws . . . he wasn't the best player. Just like Bonner has never been the Spurs best player all those times his numbers made him out to be the Spurs MVP.

All these past bad series of Spurs gone by are all true. BUT . . . Bonner was still Bonner. What does this mean? It means some people (like me) had Bonner pegged years, and I mean years, before anyone else and before he had years and years of failure to finally convince others. And there are still Bonner loyalists hiding in the weeds, skulking about their plus/minus shrines. Unfortunately, I don't think Green does enough to stay on the court when his shot isn't falling (or when he passes up shots) in a contested playoff series. His over-rated defense couldn't keep him in the rotation against OKC. Having good on-floor numbers when playing with Duncan, Diaw, Parker, and Leonard doesn't carry a lot with me. Maybe that's on Pop, and a Pop mistake in the postseason would be logical considering all of Pop's typical shenanigans, but I'm not there with you guys.

I don't trust Danny Green in the playoffs. I didn't think he was anything special when he first started getting minutes. I still don't. He's better that I thought, but I still don't see it.

I do trust Kawhi Leonard. And it's not because of some speculative fondness for his absence or weird church obsessions (I don't take part in that stuff). It's because when I watch him, I see a player I can trust. I see someone who can stick on the court even if he's missing shots, or passing up shots, or not even getting the ball.

If Green proves me wrong, great. I have no problem admitting mistakes. If Kawhi proves me wrong, then that's terrible, but I'd still admit it.

Let's just agree to it, with regards to the le of the thread: You guys buy Danny Green in the playoffs. I don't.

To me it's simple as who do you have more faith in Manu or DG? I'd rather have Manu starting where I know he has the experience. There's no reason DG can't do his thing from the bench where there's less at stake in the playoffs. Pop ended up starting Manu anyway. Why wait?

[SpursRock20]

Once again failed to show up in the clutch.

[SpursOwn]

So ing done with this scrub. If he has a career ending injury, I honestly would laugh. F him.

[Spurs7794]

Once again failed to show up in the clutch.

I'm starting to wonder whether my interpretation of choking is different from others. Danny Green is a 42% three point shooter. He missed a wide open three on a broken play and then a contested bad shot the next possession. How does that mean he choked? A 42% shooter doesn't make EVERY SINGLE SHOT even when there is no pressure...you can't expect him to make every open shot.

This season, he's had 2 games with a chance to tie or win at then end. In one, he won the game. The other (tonight), he missed. Doesn't mean he's a choker.

[Sean Cagney]

I'm starting to wonder whether my interpretation of choking is different from others. Danny Green is a 42% three point shooter. He missed a wide open three on a broken play and then a contested bad shot the next possession. How does that mean he choked? A 42% shooter doesn't make EVERY SINGLE SHOT even when there is no pressure...you can't expect him to make every open shot.

This season, he's had 2 games with a chance to tie or win at then end. In one, he won the game. The other (tonight), he missed. Doesn't mean he's a choker.

I don't think you get what they mean by choking, he can shoot 42% all year and then in a big series or a game late he misses! He can make the first 2 or so and then miss the last two or so, choking doesn't just mean you shoot a high % otherwise Bonner would never be criticized for choking when it counts. He did beat LA and that was great, think others are looking back at the OKC series and tonight etc. for how he shows up when it counts. I will give him a shot, not done with him yet but he did bad tonight at the end.

[SpursRock20]

Didn't call him a choker. Called him out for not showing up in the clutch tonight. He seemingly shoots much more poorly when the shots actually mean something late in games.

[Spurs7794]

Well I guess I'm reacting because I knew this thread was going to explode tonight. I just find it odd that alot of people are labeling him so quickly. To me, a choker is someone who does it consistently (Bonner, Peja, Doug Christie), rather than a guy who had one bad series and missed two big shots tonight.

[DesignatedT]

Green the bed tonight.

[timtonymanu]

So ing done with this scrub. If he has a career ending injury, I honestly would laugh. F him.

So you wont take it personally if I said "End your life then."

[SpursRock20]

Well I guess I'm reacting because I knew this thread was going to explode tonight. I just find it odd that alot of people are labeling him so quickly. To me, a choker is someone who does it consistently (Bonner, Peja, Doug Christie), rather than a guy who had one bad series and missed two big shots tonight.

It doesn't help that we have Jack sitting on the bench just begging to hit a clutch shot. He doesn't even need a whole lot of room like Green to get his shot off, either. Not Green's fault that he was in and Jack was out, but it leads to us fans getting upset.

[Strategic]

Green the bed tonight.

Careful now, all the little Cindy's on here think he's Justin Beiber.

[Spurs7794]

It doesn't help that we have Jack sitting on the bench just begging to hit a clutch shot. He doesn't even need a whole lot of room like Green to get his shot off, either. Not Green's fault that he was in and Jack was out, but it leads to us fans getting upset.

Oh don't get me wrong, I was upset that Pop put Green out there. I just don't think he necessarily choked. Thing is, I would only put him out there if I was going to draw up a play for him (ie the Lakers game) or he was having a good shooting night from downtown. (which he wasn't).

Again, I'm more reacting to the people who want him off the team now...the guy is our 8th or 9th best player. He doesn't have to be some savior at the end of games for him to be successful.

[SpursRock20]

Oh don't get me wrong, I was upset that Pop put Green out there. I just don't think he necessarily choked. Thing is, I would only put him out there if I was going to draw up a play for him (ie the Lakers game) or he was having a good shooting night from downtown. (which he wasn't).

Again, I'm more reacting to the people who want him off the team now...the guy is our 8th or 9th best player. He doesn't have to be some savior at the end of games for him to be successful.

True. And as our 8th or 9th best player, this team will be going nowhere fast if he plays in crunch time during the playoffs. I don't trust him and don't like the thought of drawing up a play for him. But that's just me.

[Sean Cagney]

Oh don't get me wrong, I was upset that Pop put Green out there. I just don't think he necessarily choked. Thing is, I would only put him out there if I was going to draw up a play for him (ie the Lakers game) or he was having a good shooting night from downtown. (which he wasn't).

Again, I'm more reacting to the people who want him off the team now...the guy is our 8th or 9th best player. He doesn't have to be some savior at the end of games for him to be successful.

See that is puzzling, he showed no signs of turning it around tonight and POP keeps him out there? WTF is wrong with POP? Does he see something nobody on Earth does at times? The problem is not the player alot of times to me it's POPs rotations or who he keeps in at the worst times. I know he is a great coach but at times I shake my head.

[Spurs7794]

See that is puzzling, he showed no signs of turning it around tonight and POP keeps him out there? WTF is wrong with POP? Does he see something nobody on Earth does at times? The problem is not the player alot of times to me it's POPs rotations or who he keeps in at the worst times. I know he is a great coach but at times I shake my head.

I think he was trying to show Green he has confidence in him. Unfortunately, I don't think this was the type of game to do that in.

[TDMVPDPOY]

danny green doesnt care, cause his working on his dancing skills...

[KaiRMD1]

It's funny but Bonner, Green & Blair are all season players, not playoff players and after last season's chokejob against the Thunder, I lost faith in him completely. He was like the new RJ