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I cant believe walton, russel, MIKAN etc were put in front of Drob...
PLEASE....
I love hearing people dis Charley Rosen. It's hilarious to me to hear people say he doesn't know anything about basketball. He's written more books on basketball than most people on this forum have read in their entire lives.
Not that I agree with the list exactly, but the guy knows basketball, and he knows basketball history.
I know, I know, Dave should be number one on this list based on his character alone. Of course, if you weren't a Spurs fan, or if Dave played his whole career for the Lakers, everyone on this forum would label him soft. Every one of you. Just like everyone on this forum refuses to give Shaq the credit he deserves. Of course, if Shaq played his whole career in San Antonio, every last person on this forum would be outraged that he's not number one.
But that doesn't mean I think Dave should be below Bill Walton. I'm a Spurs fan, too.
[insert San Antonio native inferiority complex here]
I cant believe walton, russel, MIKAN etc were put in front of Drob...
PLEASE....
You can't believe Russell was ranked ahead of Robinson? You know that's Bill Russell, and not Byron Russell, right?
I'm sure that Rosen may know a thing or two about basketball but if you were to read that article without knowing the author would you honestly think that the guy had a fully functioning brain? He lists a number of problems with Shaq and then puts him at number 3? He then gushes about all that Hakeem did (essentially everything that he knocks Shaq for not doing) but ranks him 6th because he didn't pass well or dribble through traffic (because those are hallmarks of Shaq's game?) On top of that he refers to Shaq's enormous list of pivot moves but doesn't list a single one, but runs of a litany things that Hakeem could do. And the Walton thing is just ing ridiculous.
Personally I don't like him putting Mikan on the list. Yes he was spectacular in his day but that was before the rules that just about every other center played on the list played in. I say make him an honorable mention or throw an asterisk in there, but realistically Mikan in his prime would probably have gotten tossed around pretty hard by most of the guys on the list.
Dennis Rodman was better than Bill Russell and would have averaged more rebounds, and held Chamberlain to fewer points.
I have come to accept the notion that not many people respect David Robinson as a player. All throughtout his career I, including all of you, have been defending him to the rest of the country concerning the perception mentioned in the article. David Robinson was an all time great and we were fortunate enough that he played for the Spurs. Now Tim is fighting certain perceptions that to me seem made up as they go along. The latest being "well he never won without David Robinson", or "he needs to play with more heart".. you know the blather. The way I see it is as long as we can add a couple of more banners to the rafters the nay sayers can have their say..we just don't have to agree with them..
Astounding.
You realize that if the NBA had kept statistics on blocks back then, Russell some years would have averaged over 8 a game?
Having written a lot of books about basketball does not = strong basketball knowledge. Sam Smith?
Then there are the whole ESPN crew who makes their living off basketball, but their basketball knowledge is very very suspectible.
Even a player like Bill Walton, basketball consumed his entire adult life, and look at his basketball knowledge.
I am not dismissing the basketball knowledge of Rosen, but I am calling the inconsistencies in his lists, and putting in obvious biases in the rankings.
Please stop now. Bill Russel is probably the best defensive center of all time and has 11 les.. Chamberlain scored 100 POINTS. Sorry, there's no way Rodman could have checked him. Ok maybe Wilt scores 50 on him to be nice.
How come Dan Issel is always left off this list. He should be at least considered to be in the top 10. He averaged 34 and 13 in his last year in college and averaged 20+ points in the nba. ABA: six time all star, aba champion, rookie of the year.
Watch the game when Russel was playing.
It goes about 5 miles an hour.
You put Russel in a game today in his prime and he would average 13 and 8.
When you compare players historically, you have to compare them in the context of the era in which they played. Most bigmen today could probably go back in time and whoop up on Bill Russell, but that's not really fair to compare them that way. If Shaq was born in 1940, he wouldn't have had access to the kind of weight training equipment/suppliments/etc. that players have access to now. Likewise, if Russell had been born in 1975, he would have all of that at his disposal.
Players are historically ranked according to their status against other players in an even playing field.
As for Mikan, I do think it's fair to say he might not have been as elite if the league had been integrated... But I still think he would have been one of the greatest centers of all time and deserves recognition on this list.
Ugh.
You're right. Charley Rosen is an idiot. David was the best center of all time. Dennis Rodman would have absolutely dominated Bill Russell and Wilt at the same time, while averaging 30 rebounds and 14 blocks a game.
I'll try to remember to not to participate in your Manu>Jordan thread.
1-Shaq
2-Kareem
3-DRob
4-Hakeem
5-Moses Malone
6-Ewing
FM-
Russell doesn't even make your top 6? He's not even above Patrick Freaking Ewing and Moses Malone?
David Robinson over Hakeem?
Why do I keep coming back into this thread?
Sorry my man.... i´m still in the 80's
For as little as I may have agreed with your earlier post in this thread I have to agree on this one. DRob will always be my favorite center, but I think Hakeem was more talented. A big part of Dave's game was that he was an absolute athletic freak show, while I think Hakeem's game was more cerebral and skill based. It breaks my heart to say it, but it's true.FM-
Russell doesn't even make your top 6? He's not even above Patrick Freaking Ewing and Moses Malone?
David Robinson over Hakeem?
Why do I keep coming back into this thread?
I think is a matter of taste... to me David was and is great he made an unbelievable impact in the franchise... Hakeem always had a team around... David, not always...
Overall I feel more empathy to DRob than Hakeem, I must say Hakeem was more skilled in a lot of game´s aspects... and win more too...
But I liked more DRob...
Here we go with the "poor little San Antonio gets no respect" thing.
It's one man's opinion.
Don't get so worked up about it.
I know Hakeem was better... but I liked more Drob...
Maybe blondes are funnier... but I like brunnettes..
I never said Drob was better than Shaq or Hakeem or Wilt or Jabbar.
All the weight training in the world doesn't get Russel to be more than 6'9"
Why is it easier to dismiss Mikan than it is Russel?
Mikan was more Dominant in his Era than Russel ever was.
They had to change several rules after he started playing the game.
He won 5 championships...
But... can you count championships REALLY from that era?
I mean... for most of the Celtics there were only what? EIGHT teams?
People act like he was the sole reason they won all 11 les. No doubt he was the best player on most of those teams and his contribution cannot be measured in stats. But christ, the man had some help.Please stop now. Bill Russel is probably the best defensive center of all time and has 11 les.
Didn't he play with like 10 hall of famers throughout his career?
You do make an excellent point here. Still...eleven is a whole load of rings, in any era in any sport.But... can you count championships REALLY from that era?
I mean... for most of the Celtics there were only what? EIGHT teams?
As far as the Dave vs. Dream thing...I hate to say it, and I've just come to accept it ten years later....but when you look at that series (1995), they were pretty much left to play head-to-head, and...well...Dave got dominated. On both ends. Damn. It hurts just thinking about that. I remember going outside after the game to try to compose myself. It was a bitter pill to swallow. A bitter, jagged, poisonous, broken-glass pill. Hakeem was the man. It was one of the greatest all-time performances by a center when it mattered most, against one of the best centers ever. A matchup for the ages, to be sure...it would have been really nice to see Big Dave come out on top of that one. Living in Houston, Rockets fans throw that one in my face all day. Not much I can say about it, except "Yeah. Hakeem showed up with huge nuts in that series."
David was a great player, a great leader, and an unmatched physical specimen. He just didn't have that killer instinct that the great ones have. I know most Spurs fans will never accept that (he did save an entire franchise, something few players have done, and he did put aside his own ego for the sake of the team, something very few of the greats would ever even consider), but he wasn't the greatest of all time. That was Russell. Then Jabbar. Then Wilt/Shaq, depending on your personal preference. I'd say Hakeem after that. Beyond that is totally debatable, but don't discount Bill Walton's championship year...that was one of the greatest performances all-time. He single-handedly won that trophy. Look at his roster:
PORTLAND TRAIL BLAZERS
3 Herm Gilliam
10 Corky Calhoun
13 Dave Twardzik
14 Lionel Hollins
15 Larry Steele
16 Johnny Davis
20 Maurice Lucas
22 Clyde Mayes
30 Bob Gross
32 Bill Walton
34 Robin Jones
36 Lloyd Neal
42 Wally Walker
I don't think David ever had a team that bad. Talk about winning without much help. He was a monster that year. It was Dr. Jack's system that allowed them to be so successful with the talent they had...but make no mistake: Walton was the talent they had. He played the game the right way. No egos, no "just give me the damn ball"...just hard work and intelligent play.
Im not saying Dave was better than Dream... but We played Dream straight up and they double and trippled David with guys Like Horry (who is going to be a hall of famer himself)
That's something I've always wondered about. He may have lacked the edge or grit or killer instinct that some of the other greats did, but I wonder if he had had that would he have been willing to step aside for Duncan?
Lots of people scoff at the idea of Horry as a HOF'er since he's never been an elite or dominant player...
...but I'm on board for that. Few players in the history of the league have made such an impact when it mattered most. The ones that have...well...they're Hall of Famer's, aren't they?
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