Raffy nailed on the juice

[timvp]

Damn LJ -- Kevin Maas and Kevin Reimer? You're pulling out the big guns.

I haven't thought about those guys in about 12 years.

I was a Rangers fan during the Ruben Sierra era. When they traded him for Canseco, I wanted nothing to do with his steroid azz. That's when I switched to being an Expos fan.

Now the Expos died and I don't have a favorite team

[whottt]

Again, though, that number doesn't jive with the period between 1988 and 1992, when his numbers were more like a HR every 34-35 AB over the next several hundred games. Palmeiro hit a lot of HR in one half season and then spent the next 5 full seasons nowhere close to that level of production. You point to a small sample as your proof; I think the rest of us point to the much larger sample as proof that you're wrong.

Yeah? Well there's not subsitute for being there...I was a Ranger fan back then...and not only did I see the transformation...I was there when the trade happened...

You know what Don Zimmer said when they traded him(this was Palmeiro's manager with the Cubs)...

"He'd rather hit an opposite field single than pull the ball for a double"..

You ever watch Palmeiro now?

They employ the Ted Williams shift against him...yes that is the third baseman playing shortstop in that defensive shift...That if a defensive shift used against extreme pull hitters..

Those are the details.

So you guys are wrong. He did change his batting stance.

He also won a triple crown in College...you cannot do that without hitting home runs.

What difference does that make? Brian Roberts lead the freakin' AL in doubles last year, but that doesn't prove that he's a power hitter.

Doubles are power...they are just aren't HR power but you can't hit them being a slap hitter.

He showed power for one-half of one season of a 5 1/2 year stretch.

He showed it in College...he showed it early. He's a different hitter now than he was then...he was not a pull hitter then.

He became one after the Cubs traded him for not being one.

Using your argument, one could make a more compelling argument that Brady Anderson was a great power hitter, based on his amazing full season in 1996 (when he averaged a HR per every 11.5 AB). Maybe Brady just decided to become a pull hitter that year. . . .

Again...Anderson's season is much more indicative of roid usage than doing it for 13 years...there has never been any claim that roids make you consistent...I guess there is now.

I don't know how much he truly sacrificed average. From 1986-1992, Palmeiro hit .296 (968/3270). From 1993-2001, he hit .293 (1517/5176). That is a 3 point drop-off -- not much of a sacrifice.

Huh? He hit over 300 3 times his first 6 years in the league(and came in second and third in batting races)...in a pitchers park, in a pitching era...and he's only hit over 300 3 times in the ensuing 14 years since...in a hitters era.

How can you escape the obvious conclusion? He's not as good of an average hitter now as he was when he was when he was an opposite field hitter...my guess is because he hits into a shift..



Here is the deal...

Prior to roid usage...

He had his career highs in hits, doubles, run scored and more 300 BA seasons...in a pitchers era...




So basically you are saying steroids made him a worse hitter...

That argument makes a lot of sense...

[timvp]

The only reason I think Raffy may not have known he was taking steroids, is because surely nobody can be stupid enough to go in front of Congress and deny taking them, then return to baseball under the most scrutiny/harshest testing ever, and still take steroids.

Nobody, right?

Well if you are going for 3000 hits and trying to reach 600 homers, some players would stoop to whatever level it took to acheive those goals. Especially players like Raffy who have a history of juicing up. He was dirty and a liar to begin with.

Now he goes down in history as probably the most stupid sportsmen ever. It'd be like if baseball let Pete Rose back in and then he started gambling again halfway through the season.

[FromWayDowntown]

I have heard them.

Where? When you decided to suggest that Palmeiro is the premeire power hitter of his generation? Did you whisper it to yourself or something? I have never, ever heard anyone seriously suggest that ARod is juiced. If you can point me to something printed (or even something written that wasn't written by you) to support your argument, I'll listen.

Yeah? And Barry Bonds hit 73 a few years ago...what's your point?

Again, my point is that Beltre exceeded 47, and that you haven't brought forward any evidence that he was juiced. Beltre exceeded 47 in the first year of testing (though testing without severe penalties).

LOL...go read the side effects of steroid usage...Griffey Jr's career and appearance is the poster boy for steroid usage...just like McGwire, Sosa, Canseco and Bonds...

Sure. So now your evidence is surmise. As with ARod, I've never read or heard anything that points the finger of steroid use at Griffey. Somehow, Griffey's skeletal injuries for running into walls don't strike me as possible side-effects of steroids. Likewise, the number of muscular injuries that Griffey has sustained are explained with equal plausibility by the fact that had a single muscular injury that never fully healed. As with ARod, if you can point me to some written discussion that Griffey was/is juiced, I'll listen.

And nothing about that seems strange to you?

You have zero common sense...

I didn't say it wasn't anomalous. But I also have read, elsewhere in this thread I think, that others don't suspect that Gonzo was juiced. Gonzo isn't a name that's often thrown out in these discussions. . . .

Why don't you throw Brady Anderson's name out there as well to prove your point...: enrolleyes

. . . .but Brady's is.

And don't forget Jim Thome as well...

I left Thome off the list, because I have read accusations about him.

It holds as much water as you want it too...

Other than being factually wrong, you make an excellent point.

[Horry For 3!]

Damn, that sucks. I just read that on Yahoo Sports before here.

[timvp]

Here is the deal...

Prior to roid usage...

He had his career highs in hits, doubles, run scored and more 300 BA seasons...in a pitchers era...

Now whottt is just making crap up. I know it's an emotional day for you but at least come with facts.

Raffy's career high in runs scored came after steroids. He had three .300 years before steroids and after steroids. Counting .290 and up, he had three prior and five after.

He had his career high in hits and doubles before steroids, but there are obvious reasons why. First of all, he started pulling the ball going for homers. That'll lower anyone's hits and doubles. Second of all, pitchers started pitching around him because his juiced azz was hitting a lot more homers. So even though he had less hits, he had a higher batting average AFTER steroids. Plus his AB/Doubles were comparable before and after steroids.

Oops.

Before steroids, Raffy never had a 90 RBI season. After steroids, he had ten seasons of more than 100 RBI.

He also set career highs for BA, OBP, SLG, OPS and even SB after steroids.

Face it, without steroids he would have gone down as doubles hitting first baseman that would have been out of the league ten years ago.

[whottt]

Yeah just like Raffy can't remember taking steroids.

Um...this argument started during a chat when we were having baseball trivia and it concerned IcemanCometh saying Frank Robinson was the greatest hitter from the state of Texas...

You remember...it was the night you were saying a relative of yours invented the knuckleball...

Palmeiro had not been accused of taking steroids by Canseco at that time...

Is that memory good enough for you?

Through 84 games

Yeah great sample there. Hint: A lot of young hitters can hit homers early in their career because pitchers don't know how to pitch to them. Once a scouting report is built, then you can start looking at things like AB/HR.

It's evidence of power....

Kevin Maas had 21 homers in 79 games in 1990. How much did that mean a couple years later?

Yeah? And Reimer had power...he just couldn't hit.

Gonzalez had 27 homers. Sierra had 25 homers. Freakin' Kevin Reimer (another lefty) had 20 homers in 250 less at bats. That's a homer every 27 at bats for Raffy and a homer every 19 at bats for Reimer.

So since that rate is much better than the 1 homer every 79 AB he had the previous year...I guess you have proved he was on roids in 1991 as well.

In other words, Raffy still wasn't a power hitter.

The he wasn't...what you neglect to see is that he also hit 49 ing doubles that year...he was second in the AL in extra base hits and 6th in SLG%.

Not as good of a HR stroke as freakin' Kevin "Kung Fu" Reimer.



Yeah no kidding. He was a doubles hitter before he started juicing up.

So let me get your point here...

Steroids make you a better player...but they just incidentally decrease your BA, your doubles, and your hits....

Connect the dots.

Canseco, the human steroid, joins the Rangers and Raffy's HR career high goes up by almost 50%.Stop trying to ignore the facts.

Um...his HR high improved from 26 to 37....

That's not exacxtly a freak improvement...would you like a list of players that had a greater improvement?

How do other home run hitters do it. They're all pull hitters. Do you watch baseball?

Do you? I gurantee you Palmeiro is the most extreme pull hitter in MLB...

And if you notice he doesn't get 200 hits and 49 doubles in a season like he did before Canseco.

Nice job defending a cheat.

Where did I defend him?

People like you enabled Raffy to become the cheat he is and always has been. Just because he has a sweet swing and isn't bursting with muscles doesn't mean he wasn't juiced. But people like you had his back and have created the steroid ridden creature we see before us.

Congrats.

Yeah...we should all be more like you and go on witchunts and make accusations without proof...that's the American way isn't it...Guilty until proven innocent.

[whottt]

Oh...and AJ sucks s too...

The little Napoleon stands 4'1 and weighs 140, yet can benchpress 900 LBS...nothing to indicate steroid usage there now is there?

Sorry...I tried to hold off but you are taking some cheap shots and you are just a little too happy about Palmeiro's demise and the blackeye it gave baseball.

[samikeyp]

IMO, I don't know if this permanently ends his chance at the HOF but it puts a serious hole into it. If I had a vote...I would not vote for him.

[timvp]

Um...this argument started during a chat when we were having baseball trivia and it concerned IcemanCometh saying Frank Robinson was the greatest hitter from the state of Texas...

You remember...it was the night you were saying a relative of yours invented the knuckleball...

Palmeiro had not been accused of taking steroids by Canseco at that time...

Is that memory good enough for you?

Yeah, I said he was juiced. You were comparing him to Ted Williams. Remember?

It's evidence of power....

And what was Kevin Maas?

Yeah? And Reimer had power...he just couldn't hit.

Raffy could hit but didn't have power. Until juice.

So since that rate is much better than the 1 homer every 79 AB he had the previous year...I guess you have proved he was on roids in 1991 as well.

Check 1992.

The he wasn't...what you neglect to see is that he also hit 49 ing doubles that year...he was second in the AL in extra base hits and 6th in SLG%.

Doubles does not equal power? What type of baseball do you watch?

So let me get your point here...

Steroids make you a better player...but they just incidentally decrease your BA, your doubles, and your hits....

Are you reading what I'm posting? He had a better BA, more hits/AB and as good of doubles/AB AFTER steroids.

Steroids let him hit more homers, get more RBIs, increase his BA, continue his doubles hitting and get even more hits.

Um...his HR high improved from 26 to 37....

Actually it was 22 to 37 in one year. He also had more ABs the year he hit 22. His average fell to .268. He was desperate and turned to steroids.

His three years before steroids were pretty consistent with how good the pitchers were in the league that year. In '90, the team hit 110 and he hit 14. In '91, the team hit 177 and he hit 26. In '92, the team hit 159 and he hit 22.

It wasn't until the next year that he started creaming up and hitting the ball out of the park at rates that no one could ever expect. Except you, of course.

That's not exacxtly a freak improvement...would you like a list of players that had a greater improvement?

Again, his homerun numbers followed the course of his team ... until steroids.

Do you? I gurantee you Palmeiro is the most extreme pull hitter in MLB...

Yeah, so? That's cuz he's juiced up and look for number 600.

And if you notice he doesn't get 200 hits and 49 doubles in a season like he did before Canseco.

Yeah he's only had a year of .324, 47 homers and 148 RBI. In other words, he almost had as many homers as he had doubles. Plus he got more hits/AB than he ever did.

Also, try this on for size. Take that year (1999), and subtract his homeruns from his hits. Then see how many doubles he had per hits that weren't homeruns. The answer is a double every 3.5 non-homerun at bats.

In 1991 when he had 49 doubles, he had a double every 3.6 non-homerun at bats. So Raffy become a better homerun hitter and a better doubles hitter ... not to mention a better hitter overall (BA, OBP, SLG, OPS).

Where did I defend him?

"I never defended Raffy. Never. Period."

Yeah...we should all be more like you and go on witchunts and make accusations without proof...that's the American way isn't it...Guilty until proven innocent.

When it's that obvious, all one has to do is use a couple brain cells to figure it out. Don't hate me because you believed in the sweet stroke. He was juiced. It was obvious.

Sorry.

[timvp]

You get no AJ bashing for the rest of the summer for coming clean on my rightness.

Oh...and AJ sucks s too...

"I have never used steroids. Period."

Rafael Palmeiro was suspended 10 days for violating Major League Baseball's steroids policy.

[spurster]

Probably half the league was using steriods at some point. Baseball has always been a game of getting away with cheating if you could. Spitballs, loaded bats, and nowadays apparently lipreaders forcing pitcher and catchers to talk through their gloves. It was beyond stupid to continue to do it, but not special condemnation.

[Horry For 3!]

Rafael Palmeiro ed up pretty good. He ed himself over BIG TIME.

[Horry For 3!]

He also lied to Congress. ouch.

[Spurminator]

They can't prove he lied to Congress, though, because this punishment is for a brand new incident. Technically, it doesn't prove anything about his career, though common sense dictates that if he used them this year (even accidentally) he probably used them (even accidentally) in the past.

[Duff McCartney]

I just think it's hilarious how defiant and how big of a tough guy he was trying to act like when he was in front of Congress and now look at him.

Where's your messiah now?!?!?!?!

[kris]

Whott, I don't know why you won't admit to defending Rafeal Palmiero. Not only do you not conceed any points, but you skew facts trying to be right. I guess it hurts when you find out the truth about your deceitful idol.

[tlongII]

I saw Palmeiro get his 3,000th hit in Seattle a couple weeks ago and saved my ticket stub. Should I throw it away now?

I've never had any doubt that Palmeiro was on the juice. I believe at least 50% of all major leaguers have been on the juice at some of their careers.

[2centsworth]

I wish is wasn't true, but the guy tested positive. He was the focal point of all the controversy so it's hard for me to believe he took something without knowing it contained steroids.

Sucks because I was rooting for him.

[pooh]

It's sad they busted him, but you kind of knew it was coming eventually. Since Bonds is out of the picture for the time being and Sosa/Giambi/Pudge are putting up sub average numbers just shifted everything over towards him. What makes it worse was that he went up front to Congress and did his best Bill Clinton and denied.

Should he go into the hall? More than likely yes, he will...right along with the Bonds, Sosa's and McGuire's, etc. Baseball is all about numbers and unfortunately, due to them wanting an advantage, they took a short cut and now it's going to catch them (or caught as the case for Raffy is), in the end they'll eventually pay for it, (health wise, etc) so give them their little moment cause after all that happens, that is what it will be...just a small moment instead of something unforgettable, like what Sandberg and Boggs experienced this past weekend.

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

I heard Canseco on the Dan Patrick show earlier today and he thought it was either a steroid "footprint" left over from the time before the policy was in place or that MLB was setting him up - like they switched samples or something.

So for some strange reason that Canseco is right about the footprint and that's what it was, then he did lie to Congress.

[N.Y. Johnny]

he should have pulled a juan gonzalez before congress

no hablo ingles

Don't forget Sammy Sosa also did that to some extent.


Also on the heels of this controversy, the Biggest in Juicer Barry Bonds now has announced that he's not comin back this year to play.

Probably cause he figures he'll get nailed himself sooner or later.


If these guys all are PROVEN to be juiced the ones in the hall should be thrown out and then the ones setting records should have them stripped away and not acknowledged.

You keep Pete Rose out for being a in disgrace for gambling on the games and to another extent under the same flag Shoeless Joe Jackson, but neither of those guys cheated with steroids as some others appear to have been doing so.

[whottt]

Yeah, I said he was juiced.



You were comparing him to Ted Williams. Remember?

No...I don't remember you saying he was juiced. In fact the first person I remember saying he was juiced was IcemanCometh and it was after that chat.

And I suppose your idea that I compared him to Ted Williams is the same as FromWayDownTown's...IE not at all...if I just mention a players name you automatically assume I am comparing them...

Ice asked who was the greatest player from the state of Texas and his answer was Frank Robinson...and I had a problem with him saying that.

I compared Frank Robinson's numbers to Palmeiro's....and guess what? They are very similar...in fact they are virtually identical.

And what was Kevin Maas?

Why do you keep bringing up Kevin Mass?

Raffy could hit but didn't have power.

False...he showed power early on in his career...and you have yet to excuse it in a non contradictory way.

Check 1992.

And what does 1992 prove?

That he stepped back?

Geez...that's only like...every other player in MLB history.

Doubles does not equal power? What type of baseball do you watch?

Doubles do equal power...XBH are power hits and some of the guys that have hit the ball the hardest in MLB history...were doubles hitters.

Are you reading what I'm posting? He had a better BA, more hits/AB and as good of doubles/AB AFTER steroids.

Steroids let him hit more homers, get more RBIs, increase his BA, continue his doubles hitting and get even more hits.

False...what kind of baseball do you watch?

The kind I watch AB's are altered by base on balls and are not truly indicative of how often a guy came to the plate.

Actually it was 22 to 37 in one year.

What kind of baseball do you watch?


If must not be the kind that Roger Maris, Griffey Jr and Babe Ruth played...

He also had more ABs the year he hit 22. His average fell to .268. He was desperate and turned to steroids.

So if a guy hits fewer HR in more AB and his average falls...he uses steroids?

Brilliant. Again...you have just indicted 99% of the players who ever played the game.

His three years before steroids were pretty consistent with how good the pitchers were in the league that year. In '90, the team hit 110 and he hit 14. In '91, the team hit 177 and he hit 26. In '92, the team hit 159 and he hit 22.

So? That's relative to the hitter....if a guy hits 60 1 year and 70 the next it could also track the teams performance.

It wasn't until the next year that he started creaming up and hitting the ball out of the park at rates that no one could ever expect. Except you, of course.

Again...you've just indicted nearly every player in baseball history.

Again, his homerun numbers followed the course of his team ... until steroids.

I want you to show me that a HR hitters HR have to follow the course of his team...this is some new crack induced stat that I have yet to master.

Yeah he's only had a year of .324, 47 homers and 148 RBI. In other words, he almost had as many homers as he had doubles. Plus he got more hits/AB than he ever did.

That's because he drew more walks...his highest PA number came in 1996.

Also, try this on for size. Take that year (1999), and subtract his homeruns from his hits. Then see how many doubles he had per hits that weren't homeruns. The answer is a double every 3.5 non-homerun at bats.

Find out what plate appearances are...how AB are derived...and then look again..and look at his second best year as well.

In 1991 when he had 49 doubles, he had a double every 3.6 non-homerun at bats. So Raffy become a better homerun hitter and a better doubles hitter ... not to mention a better hitter overall (BA, OBP, SLG, OPS).

This is why rate stats are ruining the game almost as badly as steroids are....again...plate appearances.

This may come as a shock to you...but a guy hitting more HR will tend to draw more BB and therefore his rate still will improve in every category.

"I never defended Raffy. Never. Period."

Um...I said he shouldn't be allowed in the Hall of Fame...I don't know how that can be counted as a defense.

When it's that obvious, all one has to do is use a couple brain cells to figure it out. Don't hate me because you believed in the sweet stroke. He was juiced. It was obvious.

Sorry.

That's not what we are arguing about...

You guys are saying he never showed any signs of power prior to 1993....

You are wrong about that. He did show it. He showed power before and his jump in numbers in and of itself is not unusual compared to other players...

That's is the argument.

I already know his numbers took off in 1993....and it coincides just a little too closely with Jose's accusations...and for that reason I have questioned his numbers.

In fact I mentioned it before anyone else did...

[whottt]

Whott, I don't know why you won't admit to defending Rafeal Palmiero. Not only do you not conceed any points, but you skew facts trying to be right. I guess it hurts when you find out the truth about your deceitful idol.

Hmmmm...where did I defend him against Jose's accusations?

[whottt]

You are defending Raffy

Yet in this thread:

Boom...he just destroyed his entire career...he's a liar and a cheat.

I can't believe I was a fan of this guy....

And:

His numbers are ing HOF worthy...it's assinine to say they aren't.

But if he did steroids that's another thing entirely...

And:

The only thing this added to it is the fact that he can tell a boldfaced lie while he is cheating.

There is a difference between defending his numbers as hall worthy, and defending steroid usage and lying.......

And:

I don't feel real compelled to see him make the HOF if he did steroids...I have the same at ude about Bonds, Sosa and McGwire...

Cheating does that...it just kinda makes you not care and distrust all the players...that's the reason that they shouldn't go into the HOF...

And furthermore, here is what I wrote when these allegations first came up:

Link

Damn!

This is devastating. It's a no-brainer that McGwire was a roid head...I knew he was a roid head back in 92.

It's also a no-brainer that Juan Gone was a user...although I doubt Jose introduced Juan to them...Juan was using them well before Jose came to the team...was obvious.

Pudge doesn't really suprise me...

Raffy...say it aint so Raffy...

Damn, it just fits too perfectly though...his numbers did turn into power numbers at the time Jose joined the Rangers..and sadly, his decline in numbers last year is just a little too perfectly timed with the ins ution of a steroid tesing policy.


But everything Jose says fits perfectly with the other playrs he mentioned, and I believe him...it would be naive for me to think that he the only one he lied about was Raffy...especially when Raffy was a childhood friend of his.

Sadly, I don't think Jose is lying.

Time to retire Raffy. Why try and hit benchmarks when you cheated?
The same goes for Bonds and Sosa and all these other heads.

I may have been a fan of Raffy's...indeed, the reason I liked him so much is because of all the hitters of this era...he showed fewer signs of roid usage...but I always doubted after Jose's comments.

As for his numbers...themselves they are hall worthy in any era and it's ignorant to say they aren't...even if he isn't.