Some interesting stats about Marco

[Sean Cagney]

I never said Neal's defense was good. Don't put words in my mouth. Every categorical statistic will show that Neal has a slight edge on Belenelli defensively over the course of his career. Just the idea that you can use words like defense and Belinelli in the same sentence is enough to make a person laugh. Neal is less of a high volume shooter than Mills is and I don't recall hearing too many complaints when that so-called high volume shooter had a FG% of 42% from three and roughly 44% from two point range. Not too shabby for a high volume chucker. As far as Belenelli is concerned, I've seen him take quite a few ill-advised shots but apparently when they go in, nobody cares. Welcome to Neal's first two seasons. Just curious, have you seen Belenelli's numbers with Ginobili off the court? It's worth taking a look. Also, Belenelli is a better cutter than he is a playmaker.

Ginobili has always been the key to the Spurs success. It pretty much goes without saying Duncan and Parker are just as important. They, however don't have to lead the second unit. Without him, you don't have great ball movement, you have a bunch of jump shooters shooting three's trying to take the game over. Many of those shots errant, lead to fast breaks going in the other direction. Maybe you're just not paying close enough attention. Ginobili is the glue that holds that second unit together.

LOL Ginobili always the key to the Spurs success? Ironic Tim has a year for the ages last year at 37 and they make the finals again while Manu sucked most of the playoffs, stop it! Tim Duncan is the Spurs franchise and their Key to anything and you know it, period end of story. Manu can help out alot yes and he is a Spurs legend and Tony can as well, but Tim is the the beginning and end of the SPURS franchise, period. Do not say he is the sole reason for their success or the threat hinges on Manu, they made the finals last year with him sucking pretty much and Tim put up HUGE numbers in the finals in game 6 and so on to win it, the team let him down though! Tim is the key to their success and always has been, period end of story.

[SpurPadre]

LOL Ginobili always the key to the Spurs success? Ironic Tim has a year for the ages last year at 37 and they make the finals again while Manu sucked most of the playoffs, stop it! Tim Duncan is the Spurs franchise and their Key to anything and you know it, period end of story. Manu can help out alot yes and he is a Spurs legend and Tony can as well, but Tim is the the beginning and end of the SPURS franchise, period. Do not say he is the sole reason for their success or the threat hinges on Manu, they made the finals last year with him sucking pretty much and Tim put up HUGE numbers in the finals in game 6 and so on to win it, the team let him down though! Tim is the key to their success and always has been, period end of story.

You gotta back me up on my case against neal too on this one.

[sexinthatsx]

okay seriously what the is up with these pro Gary Neal trolls?!

[ElNono]

Ginobili has always been the key to the Spurs success. It pretty much goes without saying Duncan and Parker are just as important. They, however don't have to lead the second unit. Without him, you don't have great ball movement, you have a bunch of jump shooters shooting three's trying to take the game over. Many of those shots errant, lead to fast breaks going in the other direction. Maybe you're just not paying close enough attention. Ginobili is the glue that holds that second unit together.

The FO understands the importance of that role (something that I always though went extremely unappreciated here), especially when it affords Parker and Duncan a much lighter load during the regular season while still let's the team win games. Which is why it was a no-brainer when they brought him back for another two seasons. It's difficult to put a price on making players around you substantially better, but that's exactly what Manu does, even at this advanced stage of his career. He makes Mills, Belli and even Diaw be much more productive players. Pretty amazing that at 36 he's the leader of the best bench in the NBA.

With Timmy and Manu getting older, getting the most out of role players is fundamental, which is why Manu is so valuable, as you point out. That doesn't make him better or more important than TP or TD, just make him a key component alongside the other two. That's why they're the big 3.

[Hoops Czar]

Oh, I see what you're doing now, you're bringing up ''course of his career'' rationale to prove your point about gary while ignoring the fact that Marco has gotten better each of the last three years on d while gary is at his worst right now.

Oh, I see what your doing now. You're using Neal's bad season, while he's battling injury and playing for two different teams in 6 months to show how much improved Belinelli's game is. I think 5 teams in 7 years speaks for itself. Not even the offensively challenged Chicago Bulls wanted him back. You must be looking through a thin lens if you've seen improvement. It's literally microscopic.

[SpurPadre]

Oh, I see what your doing now. You're using Neal's bad season, while he's battling injury and playing for two different teams in 6 months to show how much improved Belinelli's game is. I think 5 teams in 7 years speaks for itself. Not even the offensively challenged Chicago Bulls wanted him back. You must be looking through a thin lens if you've seen improvement. It's literally microscopic.

And you must be looking into Mike Miller's loose shoe to not see how worse gary neals d is and how he's deteriorated as a player. this bull injury excuse too But even if that point was valid, what good would another injury prone player do us now? Marco's been healthy all season and that's a plus in itself. Now you wanna talk about the bulls not wanting him? How about the ing bucks not wanting neal?

[ElNono]

LOL Ginobili always the key to the Spurs success? Ironic Tim has a year for the ages last year at 37 and they make the finals again while Manu sucked most of the playoffs, stop it! Tim Duncan is the Spurs franchise and their Key to anything and you know it, period end of story. Manu can help out alot yes and he is a Spurs legend and Tony can as well, but Tim is the the beginning and end of the SPURS franchise, period. Do not say he is the sole reason for their success or the threat hinges on Manu, they made the finals last year with him sucking pretty much and Tim put up HUGE numbers in the finals in game 6 and so on to win it, the team let him down though! Tim is the key to their success and always has been, period end of story.

Sorry Sean, but you completely misinterpreted what he said. It starts with TP and TD without a doubt, but it's not enough. When TD was younger it was different, but nowadays we need the Greens, the Bellis, the Diaws... everything has to come together. Manu's role is key because he makes all those other guys much more effective. Manu had a fairly horrendous playoffs last season, but he still created for Tiago, Neal, etc. We can survive him not shooting all that great, but we can't survive him not being there and elevating other role player's game, because then the burden becomes too big on TP, TD and we become much more vulnerable as a team.

This isn't new either. When TD used to be paired with Bonner, he had to spend 20x the energy to anchor the defense and battle inside. The pairing with Tiago went a long way towards reducing his workload, and helping Tim a lot. Similarly, when players like Diaw, Belli or Mills are playing great, then TP, Tim and even Manu can come in without the pressure of having to do everything, and it's makes it much easier to win games.

[Hoops Czar]

And you must be looking into Mike Miller's loose shoe to not see how worse gary neals d is and how he's deteriorated as a player. this bull injury excuse too But even if that point was valid, what good would another injury prone player do us now? Marco's been healthy all season and that's a plus in itself. Now you wanna talk about the bulls not wanting him? How about the ing bucks not wanting neal?

Mike Miller joke no. 347. screw this post, tbh

[spurraider21]

i think the Neal > Marco people are either trolling or way to stubborn. Marco is shooting the ball as well as Neal ever had for the Spurs, as well as bringing the additional playmaking presence and passing that Marco has above Neal. Neither player is much defensively, I'd say their ability is about the same, but at least Marco has some height.

Although as has been said, I think Mills has been the Neal replacement, as in the pseudo point guard who takes outside jumpers while Manu/Diaw are running the offense. In the meantime Mills has been clutch, has been shooting at an efficient clip, and is a better defensive player than Neal was.

[Sean Cagney]

Sorry Sean, but you completely misinterpreted what he said. It starts with TP and TD without a doubt, but it's not enough. When TD was younger it was different, but nowadays we need the Greens, the Bellis, the Diaws... everything has to come together. Manu's role is key because he makes all those other guys much more effective. Manu had a fairly horrendous playoffs last season, but he still created for Tiago, Neal, etc. We can survive him not shooting all that great, but we can't survive him not being there and elevating other role player's game, because then the burden becomes too big on TP, TD and we become much more vulnerable as a team.

This isn't new either. When TD used to be paired with Bonner, he had to spend 20x the energy to anchor the defense and battle inside. The pairing with Tiago went a long way towards reducing his workload, and helping Tim a lot. Similarly, when players like Diaw, Belli or Mills are playing great, then TP, Tim and even Manu can come in without the pressure of having to do everything, and it's makes it much easier to win games.

I can agree with you but I don't agree with half of what Hoops Czar says, sorry I just don't and he is not misunderstood half the time he is just wrong half the time.

i think the Neal > Marco people are either trolling or way to stubborn. Marco is shooting the ball as well as Neal ever had for the Spurs, as well as bringing the additional playmaking presence and passing that Marco has above Neal. Neither player is much defensively, I'd say their ability is about the same, but at least Marco has some height.

Although as has been said, I think Mills has been the Neal replacement, as in the pseudo point guard who takes outside jumpers while Manu/Diaw are running the offense. In the meantime Mills has been clutch, has been shooting at an efficient clip, and is a better defensive player than Neal was.

PERIOD END OF STORY!

[ElNono]

I can agree with you but I don't agree with half of what Hoops Czar says, sorry I just don't and he is not misunderstood half the time he is just wrong half the time.PERIOD END OF STORY!

I don't agree with 3/4 of what he says either, tbh... but I thought that was spot on, IMO.

[therealtruth]

Wrong about the d again. Marco has better numbers in steals, blocks, charges drawn. In what bizzaro world are you finding numbers showing neal isn't worse defensively than Marco?)

But Neal also fails the eye test. You can't measure how dumb it was to leave a shoeless Miller wide open on a critical possesion.

[murpjf88]

I don't agree with 3/4 of what he says either, tbh... but I thought that was spot on, IMO.

You talking about Hoops? He's definitely a little on the eccentric side but not really a bad poster at all. He drops a few stink bombs every now and then but I wouldn't go as far to say he's almost always wrong. Many of his posts have validity to them even if his opinion isn't shared by the masses.

[exstatic]

czar is a troll account, like rascal. I challenge ANYONE to find ONE positive thing he's ever said about the Spurs. ONE. I'm talking actual unqualified praise, not neutral patter.

[Baam]

Neal is the clutchest mofo since Horry while Beli went 1 for 19 when Italy needed him the most, enough said... Also re-watch the last Spurs-Bobcats, Neal clearly outplayed Beli-no-D who had the benefit of being on the much better team...

The worst posters in this thread are the hypocrites trying to make Beli's D look like an upgrade in any way, pretty sad stuff tbh...

[Spursfanfromafar]

Belinelli (2014) vs Neal (2013) - off/on stats -

Belinelli, minutes played: 51%, (per 100 possessions) - Difference between team versus opponent's on/off stats - (-2.0)
Neal, minutes played: 37%, (per 100 possessions) - Difference between team versus opponent's on/off states - (-4.5)

Belinelli is clearly, clearly better than Neal for the Spurs.

[Mel_13]

Neal chose to seek his fortune elsewhere, while Belinelli was willing to commit immediately. As it's turned out, Beli has been an excellent fit, but it's not as if the Spurs chose Beli over Neal. They signed Beli to replace a player that wanted more money and more years than the Spurs were willing to give. Neal would very likely still be a Spur if he had been willing, on July 1st, to sign the deal he eventually got from the Bucks.

[SpursFan86]

Where is this "every categorical statistic will show that Neal has a slight edge on Belenelli defensively over the course of his career" coming from? What statistics show that? DRTG is a horrible measure of a player's defensive ability. All it does is look at a player's defensive rebounds, steals, and blocks, and then also takes into account how good the team's DRTG is. Hence why all the leaders in DRTG always belong to the best defensive teams. If a player doesn't get many steals/blocks/rebounds or plays on a ty defensive team, he'll have a bad DRTG. Look at Bruce Bowen. Out of everyone on the '03 Spurs roster, he ranked 11 out of 15 in terms of DRTG. In '04, he was 14th out of 17. If you're so fond of using DRTG, I guess you'd agree with Manu > Bowen defensively

So besides DRTG, what stat shows that Neal is a better defender? xRAPM (rate-adjusted plus-minus) shows that Neal has been horrible defensively over the years, while Belinelli has simply been bad. Synergy points to Belinelli being a better defender too, but apparently that's just because Neal is injured this year. Defensive Win Shares (a stat I'm not very fond of, since again, it places a lot of weight on the team defense) points to Belinelli being better defensively the past two years than Neal has ever been in his career.

[rmt]

I'll even take it one step further Sean. Not Parker, Not Duncan but Ginobili is the key to winning a 5th championship. Without his guidance, leadership and ability to lead the offense, the second unit isn't nearly as effective or cohesive.

Can't agree with this statement because if Pop had just parked Manu's behind on the bench in game 6, there'd be 5 championship banners hanging in the AT&T center right now. Probably the reason some think that Manu is the key is that Parker and Duncan's play is very consistent - unlike Manu's so when Manu does play well, that play takes the team to a whole 'nother level. And this year, Boris 2.0, Belli and Mills in the second unit are pretty damn good playmakers even without Manu.

Belli is much more versatile than Neal and his bigger size is much more of a need since there's no real SF backup for Kwahi.

[ElNono]

You talking about Hoops? He's definitely a little on the eccentric side but not really a bad poster at all. He drops a few stink bombs every now and then but I wouldn't go as far to say he's almost always wrong. Many of his posts have validity to them even if his opinion isn't shared by the masses.

Didn't call him a bad poster. I just don't agree with a lot of things he says. The Beli/Neal thing just doesn't pass the eye test, IMO. I wouldn't say he's wrong or stupid because of what he thinks on that matter, as it's very subjective, but I just disagree with it.

[Hoops Czar]

Can't agree with this statement because if Pop had just parked Manu's behind on the bench in game 6, there'd be 5 championship banners hanging in the AT&T center right now. Probably the reason some think that Manu is the key is that Parker and Duncan's play is very consistent - unlike Manu's so when Manu does play well, that play takes the team to a whole 'nother level. And this year, Boris 2.0, Belli and Mills in the second unit are pretty damn good playmakers even without Manu.

Belli is much more versatile than Neal and his bigger size is much more of a need since there's no real SF backup for Kwahi.

Sure, and if Parker goes 7-22 instead of 6-23 or if Leonard knocked down a pair of freethrows or grab a rebound, or if Pop didn't inexplicably bench Duncan in the closing seconds of game 6, or if Green could have hit the broad side of a barn in games 6 or 7, there'd be 5 championship banners hanging in the AT&T center right now. Blame Neal with the rest of the sanctimonious mooks for leaving Miller open for a three but it didn't really have any bearing on the outcome. The Spurs were in complete control with 28 seconds remaining in the game, However, Leonard leaving Lebron wide open for a game clinching 15 footer at the top of the key in game 7 was arguably the worst defensive sequence I've ever seen in my life. I could actually go on but I've made my point. Ginobili was only one small part of a team collapse and for what it's worth, I would much rather run the floor with Ginobili at 50% than CoJo at all.

[rmt]

Sure, and if Parker goes 7-22 instead of 6-23 or if Leonard knocked down a pair of freethrows or grab a rebound, or if Pop didn't inexplicably bench Duncan in the closing seconds of game 6, or if Green could have hit the broad side of a barn in games 6 or 7, there'd be 5 championship banners hanging in the AT&T center right now. Blame Neal with the rest of the sanctimonious mooks for leaving Miller open for a three but it didn't really have any bearing on the outcome. The Spurs were in complete control with 28 seconds remaining in the game, However, Leonard leaving Lebron wide open for a game clinching 15 footer at the top of the key in game 7 was arguably the worst defensive sequence I've ever seen in my life. I could actually go on but I've made my point. Ginobili was only one small part of a team collapse and for what it's worth, I would much rather run the floor with Ginobili at 50% than CoJo at all.

Parker, at least, had the excuse that he was injured. Don't see the point in blaming Leonard for a missed free throw when Manu also missed a key one too or for not grabbing a rebound (Kwahi had 11 and 16 rebs in games 6 and 7). Leonard played way above expected for a 2nd year player in the Finals. Game 6 - KL - 22/11 on 64.3%FG +11 Manu 9 pts 8 tovs -21 My original disagreement was with your statement, "Ginobili is the key to winning a 5th championship" and in game 6, Manu was the BIGGEST part of why they lost.

[Hoops Czar]

Parker, at least, had the excuse that he was injured. Don't see the point in blaming Leonard for a missed free throw when Manu also missed a key one too or for not grabbing a rebound (Kwahi had 11 and 16 rebs in games 6 and 7). Leonard played way above expected for a 2nd year player in the Finals. Game 6 - KL - 22/11 on 64.3%FG +11 Manu 9 pts 8 tovs -21 My original disagreement was with your statement, "Ginobili is the key to winning a 5th championship" and in game 6, Manu was the BIGGEST part of why they lost.

You're entire statement is inaccurate because Ginobili was playing on a bad hamstring. Ginobili sucked it up and played through it because it was the biggest game of the year and as banged up as the Spurs were, didn't want to face the Heat in game 7. You also claim that he was the biggest part of why they lost because of his 8 turnovers in 21 minutes yet the Spurs were still in position to close out the Heat with a made free throw or one lousy rebound. There were a lot of things that led to their demise but blaming Ginobili for the team's failure in game 6 without holding others accountable is some weak sauce. Leonard's numbers not withstanding, it doesn't take a wily old veteran to know that you don't leave the best player in the game wide open for a walk up 15 foot championship game clincher.