What is Green's ceiling?

[Brazil]

Yeah. No argument there. He did a great job and took advantage of a mistake when Batum got OFF him. He didn't dare put the ball on the floor when Batum was ON him, as stated, which proves the point about his ability to create on his own off the dribble.

I think we are perfectly in line on that point. BTW sometimes it is just a confidence issue. On the gif you can feel if he would have passed the ball if Batum stayed on him even though he showed he is capable of dealing with it.

I wouldn't argue how many shots are easier or harder, only that his statement is not "re ed" and is similar to what a very non-re ed Manu Ginobili has said.

Manu has said he likes transition 3s, he does not mean that's an easy shot (did not see the quote but I can imagine). Manu also likes passing the ball between opponent legs... IIRC Pop is not a big fan of transition 3s, I don't think that's a high % shot (maybe some stats could be nice here).

and the fast break you describe where Danny blocks the ball...steals it...and dribbles all by himself to the three point line are a fraction of them. Many others are where an outlet is made to him and he pulls up and makes an uncontested three. Not this more heroic situation where he's staving off a maurauding transition D.

still when he does that, he is creating his own shot right ?

[Brazil]

I didn't mean to underrate him or ignore his improvements imho but he has not been making significant steps in those areas( driving, finishing) for me to consider them as additions to his already elite basketball repertoire. I also don't think that "3&D" is a disgraceful label imho, it best describes DG's game and he's one of the best if not the best ever in the Spurs franchise with Bowen in the same discussion.

my last sentence was not directed to you. It was a complementary overall constatation. As I said I do agree with you regarding his peak just pointing out the slight improvements he is making on both def (see pump fakes) and offense (see ball on the floor and finishing at rim)

[benefactor]

No, as usual, not acknowledging his point is not equivalent to him not having one. I'm sure that him having 190 posts doesn't have anything to do with the arrogance in ignoring his point. You're arguing over semantics, but the gist of what he is saying is inherently valid and obvious. I love me some DG, too but it's an over-zealous defense of him. Equating him having the ball in his hand, dribbling down the court and pulling up and nailing the three (difficult or not) doesn't equate to a lot of basketball afficionados as "creating off the dribble", just because he technically dribbled it two times to get his feet under him for the three while the defense was reeling backwards on their heels, in transition, versus no defender or a scrambling unsettled defense, sure. He can knock down the three with the best of them. Lumping that into "shots off the dribble" or especially "creating off the dribble", is generous? Specious? Disingenuous? It's a slightly more frenzied set shot, that yes, he dribbled into, to set his feet, instead of setting his feet and having the ball passed to him. But, it's not exactly creating a shot off the dribble versus an engaged defender which is what Ced is referring to, I'm sure.

Technically, you're right, though! Got Ced on a zinger, there! He was dribbling before he pulled up and took a wide open 3. (Not that that isn't a skill to be praised unto itself.)

Ced just should have used "creating" off the dribble, instead of "shooting" maybe. Maybe he did. But, he's right in the meaning of his argument. Danny doesn't create his own shot well. On fast breaks, you don't have to create it. It's there. You just have to be confident enough to pull up and take it, and good enough a shooter to make it at a clip that won't get Pop on your ass. And he does a fantastic job of that.

Saying that an open three in transition, because it wasn't assisted, is a shot that he "created for himself" is abusing the word "created". You create something from a defensed position. If I walk into an open field and say, behold, I have created open spaces, I am pretty sure I haven't created .

Reductio ad absurdum: If Parker dribbles the ball upcourt, and passes back to a trailing Splitter at the mid-court line, and he dribbles it a couple of times and pulls up and launches a three. It goes in, we say Splitter just created a shot off the dribble under your definition. If he could do that every time, we would have to say that Splitter was one of the best off the dribble shot creaters in basketball. It wouldn't make any ing sense, but we would have to say that.

Against a set defense, Danny is weak off the dribble. That's just plain and simple truth. It's not a horrible knock on Danny. Even Superman has Kryptonite. Steph Curry, Kobe, etc are good at it. Danny is not. Maybe you could be an optimist and say he's mediocre at it, whatever the assessment, it's an area where he is not on par with the best in the league, whereas his 3 point shooting is on par with the very best in the league, and his defense is on par with the very best in the league.

His offense off the dribble. Is. Not.

His inlet pass to the post player has made me cry out loud at least once or twice, too. Bad, lazy, dumb, distracted, or unfocused, I don't know which, but not good. Another poster mentioned Ritalin. Maybe. And, the article that someone posted regarding his floater misses. One of the worst floater misses I have ever seen came out of Danny's hand. Not Matt Bonner's hand, whose off the dribble offense is maligned to no end. Although, Danny did later redeem himself with some nice floaters. It looks like it's gotten better, but maybe it was always good (no), and he just was slumping more when I was paying attention. I think he's developed an improved floater.

But when Danny puts the ball on the floor, the first thing that comes to my mind is not: Here we go, this is Danny's strong suit. Instead, I cross my fingers, and it has seemed to work more, recently.

Seriously...you are trying a bit too hard man. Cut out all of the "look how smart I am" fluff and it could have been summed up in about 5 or 6 sentences. TD21 Jr., tbh.

[100%duncan]

my last sentence was not directed to you. It was a complementary overall constatation. As I said I do agree with you regarding his peak just pointing out the slight improvements he is making on both def (see pump fakes) and offense (see ball on the floor and finishing at rim)

Yeah I know, but maybe my reasoning is the reasoning behind Spurs fan's minds when they underrate him just because he couldn't do this and that when he's elite at what he needs to do.

[Chinook]

No a player dribbling up the court and shooting a three does not cons ute creating a 3 off the dribble. You are smarter then that and know that this is a transition 3

You have to stop saying that. A "transition three" isn't a type of shot like a pull-up or a floater. It's merely saying that a three came off a fastbreak or secondary break. There are many types of transition threes, some of which are taken off the dribble, some of which are catch-and-shoot attempts and some of which are set shots. What you're doing is like saying Mills can't create off the dribble because he only takes "half-court threes" (He doesn't. Both he and Green take shots in both situations, although Patty almost never takes threes off the dribble during the break.)

Green gets his 3's in catch and shoot and transition. That's his meat and potatoes, everyone knows it. To argue that they come off the dribble is ludicrous

How do you think MOST players get the bulk of their threes? ISO threes are quite frowned upon in Pop's mind. But when Green goes into big-head mode, he shoots them just as easily as anyone of the team does.



Seriously. Look at the video and tell me that he can't create off the dribble (not that he does a lot).

Its common knowledge but if you want me to break it down a transition 3 is normally an open shot and contested far less then a player shooting a 3 off the dribble.

That's you assuming. Most of Green's threes are uncontested, which is the primary reason why he has a high percentage. His release is fast enough that he can get it off before someone challenges him. As far as the fast break goes, I think you should watch the video I posted. Most of his pull-up threes (the ones he gets as the handler on the break) he takes while he's guarded.

Once again:

Danny Green is one of the best catch and shoot / set shot players in the L but off the dribble is not one of his strengths

No one argues that. It was you who put players with worth percentages over him because you assume they take harder shots when almost all threes are assisted. Green's offensive deficiencies are inside the arch. Outside the three-point line, he's arguably the most dynamic shooter in the NBA.

[littlecoyotecoin]

I did not call out Chinook because he is right he "creates" his transition 3s opportunities. He steals / catches a ball then he dribbles the ing ball, deals with transition defense and set his shot while in motion, not sure what you are arguing. At the same time he is perfectly aware Green is no Manu.

For the difficulty of transition 3s you are saying it all "there are several that are easier" I'd add there are more easier shots than more difficult

We'll have to agree to disagree that he is creating a shot in a large number of those situations. He is taking what's available rather than creating much of anything in those situations. Lots of players could take uncontested threes that are not considered creators. He's just exceptional at making them. No reason to lionize that skill as more than it is, though.

[Chinook]

No, as usual, not acknowledging his point is not equivalent to him not having one. I'm sure that him having 190 posts doesn't have anything to do with the arrogance in ignoring his point. You're arguing over semantics, but the gist of what he is saying is inherently valid and obvious. I love me some DG, too but it's an over-zealous defense of him. Equating him having the ball in his hand, dribbling down the court and pulling up and nailing the three (difficult or not) doesn't equate to a lot of basketball afficionados as "creating off the dribble", just because he technically dribbled it two times to get his feet under him for the three while the defense was reeling backwards on their heels, in transition, versus no defender or a scrambling unsettled defense, sure. He can knock down the three with the best of them. Lumping that into "shots off the dribble" or especially "creating off the dribble", is generous? Specious? Disingenuous? It's a slightly more frenzied set shot, that yes, he dribbled into, to set his feet, instead of setting his feet and having the ball passed to him. But, it's not exactly creating a shot off the dribble versus an engaged defender which is what Ced is referring to, I'm sure.

Shooting off the dribble is completely different than shooting with your feet set. The main reason is because you have to add that extra step of lifting the ball, which changes the timing substantially. Green can shoot off the dribble just fine. What he can't do is dribble well enough or confidently enough to consistently create space for a shot. In games without the Big Three, however, Green very much does so.

On fast breaks, you don't have to create it. It's there. You just have to be confident enough to pull up and take it, and good enough a shooter to make it at a clip that won't get Pop on your ass. And he does a fantastic job of that.

All pull-ups are "there". That's why people shoot them. The defenders are backing up to contain the drive, so the shooter has the necessary space to get their shot off. However, the difficulty in pull-ups is that they are taken on the move (as opposed to step-backs where the player sets their feet). A transition pull-up is just like any other pull-up, except it's harder, because the shooter is coming off a sprint as opposed to a mild run. Almost every one of Mills' three that he "creates for himself" are of the pull-up variety. There's no difference between him and Green in that regard, except that Danny does have an awkward step-back that he takes at times.

But when Danny puts the ball on the floor, the first thing that comes to my mind is not: Here we go, this is Danny's strong suit. Instead, I cross my fingers, and it has seemed to work more, recently.

His main problem inside the arch is that he takes a long time to pick the ball up before going into his move. And when he picks it up, he kind of does this long scoop thing that makes it easy to strip him or to alter his form. When it comes to actually shooting, he has a pretty wide variety to moves. He can shoot all the types of layups and dunk. But until he figures out how to pick up a ball in traffic, he's going to be inconsistent as .

[Drachen]

#1 sg in the league on both ends.

I thought that James Harden had this wrapped up

[Brazil]

I thought that James Harden had this wrapped up

just on one end

[Drachen]

just on one end

http://mweb.cbssports.com/promo?r=/n...l-player-alive

[littlecoyotecoin]

I think we are perfectly in line on that point. BTW sometimes it is just a confidence issue. On the gif you can feel if he would have passed the ball if Batum stayed on him even though he showed he is capable of dealing with it.



Manu has said he likes transition 3s, he does not mean that's an easy shot (did not see the quote but I can imagine). Manu also likes passing the ball between opponent legs... IIRC Pop is not a big fan of transition 3s, I don't think that's a high % shot (maybe some stats could be nice here).



still when he does that, he is creating his own shot right ?

I am sorry you didn't see the quote but still somehow know what it says. It's WHY he likes them. He said that that shot is often easier than whatever they would have gotten had they let the defense set up, and ran their offense against it. He likes it because he believes it is an easier shot, relative to a lot of others. Very similar to what Ced said.

No one said he can't ever do it. Bonner does it too. What does that prove. It isn't his strong suit.

[littlecoyotecoin]

Seriously...you are trying a bit too hard man. Cut out all of the "look how smart I am" fluff and it could have been summed up in about 5 or 6 sentences. TD21 Jr., tbh.

I can't remember the last thing you said that was interesting, so I take that into consideration when you weigh in with your criticisms.

[benefactor]

I can't remember the last thing you said that was interesting, so I take that into consideration when you weigh in with your criticisms.

I mostly lurk up here now. It's hit new lows up here the past couple of seasons. Pearls before swine, tbh.

I gave you the benefit of the doubt because you actually used the enter key, but your post just felt like a bunch of try hard nonsense mixed in with the points you were making. From you going immediately to post count smack, to saying like "Reductio ad absurdum:" to make you sound smarter, to adding lame throw away lines like "Even Superman has Kryptonite" to make your post purposely longer...the whole thing was just forced and unnecessary. You are a classic try hard and probably either a got or socially awkward in real life.

You keep on typing though buddy. Maybe you can get you a little group of grey disciples that think you actually have some real posting/basketball a en when the reality is you are just some pseudo-intellectual bull ter.

[Agloco]

Gary Payton minus playmaking, minus leadership, plus 3ptshooting, minus ballhandling, minus finishing at the hoop, minus clutchness.

...and on a different position.

So not Gary Payton. Glad we got that squared away.

[Brazil]

I mostly lurk up here now. It's hit new lows up here the past couple of seasons. Pearls before swine, tbh.

I gave you the benefit of the doubt because you actually used the enter key, but your post just felt like a bunch of try hard nonsense mixed in with the points you were making. From you going immediately to post count smack, to saying like "Reductio ad absurdum:" to make you sound smarter, to adding lame throw away lines like "Even Superman has Kryptonite" to make your post purposely longer...the whole thing was just forced and unnecessary. You are a classic try hard and probably a got in real life.

You keep on typing though buddy. Maybe you can get you a little group of grey disciples that think you actually have some real posting/basketball a en when the reality is you are just some pseudo-intellectual bull ter.

Bene doin' work lately

[littlecoyotecoin]

Shooting off the dribble is completely different than shooting with your feet set. The main reason is because you have to add that extra step of lifting the ball, which changes the timing substantially. Green can shoot off the dribble just fine. What he can't do is dribble well enough or confidently enough to consistently create space for a shot. In games without the Big Three, however, Green very much does so.



All pull-ups are "there". That's why people shoot them. The defenders are backing up to contain the drive, so the shooter has the necessary space to get their shot off. However, the difficulty in pull-ups is that they are taken on the move (as opposed to step-backs where the player sets their feet). A transition pull-up is just like any other pull-up, except it's harder, because the shooter is coming off a sprint as opposed to a mild run. Almost every one of Mills' three that he "creates for himself" are of the pull-up variety. There's no difference between him and Green in that regard, except that Danny does have an awkward step-back that he takes at times.



His main problem inside the arch is that he takes a long time to pick the ball up before going into his move. And when he picks it up, he kind of does this long scoop thing that makes it easy to strip him or to alter his form. When it comes to actually shooting, he has a pretty wide variety to moves. He can shoot all the types of layups and dunk. But until he figures out how to pick up a ball in traffic, he's going to be inconsistent as .

I can't really disagree with any of that. But, not being able to dribble, which you agree he's got some issues with, is kind of important to being a creator.

[Galileo]

Klay Thompson is called the best 2-way shooting guard in the NBA. Yet Green is every bit as good as Thompson.

[ohmwrecker]

Poor man's Sean Elliott.

[ceds]

DG still has some improvements he can add to his game

I see him continuing to developing his counters when he is ran hard off the 3 pt line.
In G2 of the finals he made 5-6 fgs at the basket after putting the ball on the floor after a hard close out. Finishing at the basket has never been a strength of his but its clear that he has worked on that aspect of his game after being exposed in the 13 finals

Defensively i believe he is already a top 5 perimeter defender.

[Chinook]

http://www.nba.com/spurs/video/120710_green

Green's highlights from his first year as a starter. He pretty much needs to make those flashes a reality. He's done so on the defensive end, but he has work to do on offense.

[Seventyniner]

Poor man's Sean Elliott.

I'd be more willing to say that about Kawhi tbh

[ohmwrecker]

I'd be more willing to say that about Kawhi tbh

Kawhi is going to be better than Elliott.

[G-Dawgg]

Who's is the english teacher grading essays on the message boards?

[Seventyniner]

Kawhi is going to be better than Elliott.

Agreed, but he's not to the level of prime Elliott yet. I mainly meant that Kawhi is much more like Elliott than Green is.

[100%duncan]

I mostly lurk up here now. It's hit new lows up here the past couple of seasons. Pearls before swine, tbh.

I gave you the benefit of the doubt because you actually used the enter key, but your post just felt like a bunch of try hard nonsense mixed in with the points you were making. From you going immediately to post count smack, to saying like "Reductio ad absurdum:" to make you sound smarter, to adding lame throw away lines like "Even Superman has Kryptonite" to make your post purposely longer...the whole thing was just forced and unnecessary. You are a classic try hard and probably either a got or socially awkward in real life.

You keep on typing though buddy. Maybe you can get you a little group of grey disciples that think you actually have some real posting/basketball a en when the reality is you are just some pseudo-intellectual bull ter.

Drunk again imho?