Suns: Eric Bledsoe signs a 5yr/$70 million extension

[Chinook]

I get your point. MJ is a great example. But still didnt stop him for making $25-$30 million (IIRC)near the end of his career. no one was making more than Mike off the court, but it is still a sign of disrespect that the best player in the sport and arguably the best player of ANY team sport is not getting a contract befitting that. And that a good not great player like Bledsoe makes 5 million less for on the court production...is crazy.

And I dont buy that he is not upset about it He has mentioned it several times. Remember he says he wants to be the first billionaire athlete. YOu dont get there by being raped by the CBA .... Click here

Lebron would be making significantly more money had he stayed with Cleveland and taken the max every year. He'd pretty much be getting what Melo is making. I don't think it's fair to use his salary to compare with Jordan. Kobe showed how much a tenured player can make when his team constantly maxes him out.

[JamStone]

I get your point. MJ is a great example. But still didnt stop him for making $25-$30 million (IIRC)near the end of his career. no one was making more than Mike off the court, but it is still a sign of disrespect that the best player in the sport and arguably the best player of ANY team sport is not getting a contract befitting that. And that a good not great player like Bledsoe makes 5 million less for on the court production...is crazy.

And I dont buy that he is not upset about it He has mentioned it several times. Remember he says he wants to be the first billionaire athlete. YOu dont get there by being raped by the CBA .... Click here

Michael Jordan only made those big salaries in his final two seasons with the Bulls. Prior to those last two seasons, he wasn't cashing in those huge NBA salaries. Even out of retirement in the 1994-95 and 1995-96 seasons even with 3 NBA championships and 3 league MVPs already under his belt, he made $3.85 million and $3.8 million respectively. Among others, David Robinson, Charles Barkley, Derrick Coleman, Penny Hardaway, and Shaquille O'Neal had higher salaries each of those seasons than Michael. Hakeem and Clyde had bigger salaries in the 95-96 season. The Bulls only decided to give a 33 year old Jordan the big bucks after he won the 4th championship after Jordan had already made the Bulls that money many times over.

LeBron cares about money obviously. But if he cared that much about it, he would have never signed with the Miami Heat in the first place 4 years ago and taken slightly less than the max. He would have demanded $30 million a year to return to Cleveland. He understands that most of the money he makes in the prime of his career will come from endorsements. Would he prefer that he also make $40 million a year from his NBA salary? I'm sure he would. But his NBA salary doesn't and won't prevent him from being one of the richest athletes in the world. Now, the media finding out that he raped a girl or beat his wife would do that. But as it stands, there are very few athletes in any sport in any country that makes as much money as LeBron as it is. I don't think he'll make a huge fit over his NBA salary.

[Killakobe81]

Michael Jordan only made those big salaries in his final two seasons with the Bulls. Prior to those last two seasons, he wasn't cashing in those huge NBA salaries. Even out of retirement in the 1994-95 and 1995-96 seasons even with 3 NBA championships and 3 league MVPs already under his belt, he made $3.85 million and $3.8 million respectively. Among others, David Robinson, Charles Barkley, Derrick Coleman, Penny Hardaway, and Shaquille O'Neal had higher salaries each of those seasons than Michael. Hakeem and Clyde had bigger salaries in the 95-96 season. The Bulls only decided to give a 33 year old Jordan the big bucks after he won the 4th championship after Jordan had already made the Bulls that money many times over.

LeBron cares about money obviously. But if he cared that much about it, he would have never signed with the Miami Heat in the first place 4 years ago and taken slightly less than the max. He would have demanded $30 million a year to return to Cleveland. He understands that most of the money he makes in the prime of his career will come from endorsements. Would he prefer that he also make $40 million a year from his NBA salary? I'm sure he would. But his NBA salary doesn't and won't prevent him from being one of the richest athletes in the world. Now, the media finding out that he raped a girl or beat his wife would do that. But as it stands, there are very few athletes in any sport in any country that makes as much money as LeBron as it is. I don't think he'll make a huge fit over his NBA salary.

I dont disagree with any of this. But I do think he will (and should) push for a higher ceiling for top stars. Taking a small cut to get freedom to play wherever he wanted and to hit FA this past off-season. He did sacrifice some salary now but he won two les and increased his off court earnings in the process. But no player wants to get paid below what they feel their value is. I think he should fight for it I guess we will see if he does. I dint think that makes him greedy. And I dont think despite his endorsements should let it go quietly either.

[Killakobe81]

They swore up & they swore down they wouldn't bid against themselves.

They bid against themselves.

this they cannot help themselves.

[Killakobe81]

Lebron would be making significantly more money had he stayed with Cleveland and taken the max every year. He'd pretty much be getting what Melo is making. I don't think it's fair to use his salary to compare with Jordan. Kobe showed how much a tenured player can make when his team constantly maxes him out.

Also true. But why should he have to sacrifice THAT much when like many of you have said Cavs couldnt build a proper team around him?

[spurraider21]

i just dont get what the suns are trying to build

[Thread]

i just dont get what the suns are trying to build

O & 1/2-a-100.

[JamStone]

But no player wants to get paid below what they feel their value is.

Tim Duncan did and did so happily. And he didn't have the type of endorsement dollars LeBron gets. Dirk did and did so willingly to allow Cuban to reconstruct the Mavs roster. Dustin Pedroia did and it was his idea to take considerably less than what his market value at the time was. Peyton Manning renegotiated his contract when he went to Denver and asked to take less than the Broncos were offering him. Let me say that again, he renegotiated to TAKE LESS than what they initially offered him.

Once you start talking about getting into the tens of millions of dollars, there are some star athletes that don't consider getting the most money possible as the most important thing, even if the money they do get might not be quite what they feel their value is.

[Killakobe81]

Tim Duncan did and did so happily. And he didn't have the type of endorsement dollars LeBron gets. Dirk did and did so willingly to allow Cuban to reconstruct the Mavs roster. Dustin Pedroia did and it was his idea to take considerably less than what his market value at the time was. Peyton Manning renegotiated his contract when he went to Denver and asked to take less than the Broncos were offering him. Let me say that again, he renegotiated to TAKE LESS than what they initially offered him.

Once you start talking about getting into the tens of millions of dollars, there are some star athletes that don't consider getting the most money possible as the most important thing, even if the money they do get might not be quite what they feel their value is.

Duncan Peyton and Dirk did so after they rang and after they both had max or near max deals. Dirk just finished a near max deal last year and I think the same applies to Peyton who was coming off serious injury in his last max type deal. Duncan was thought to be done from playing at an elite level just a few years ago so though I agree he too a substantial cut coming off back to back solid years (especially last one) none of those are where Lebron is NOW ... best player in the game still in his prime.

Pedroia was the only example you gave in his prime and although he is a very good player and one of the best 2nd basemen very out of place for this discussion. The other guys in this convo are first ballot HOF'ers. To go even further as nice as Dirk was he was never unquestioned as the best player in the game Timmy definitely was and when he was he was paid as such. Again I dont disagree with your entire rebuttal but I think we are looking at it from different perspectives.

Maybe you are right that MJ is not the perfect example since it was a different era ... but I think Lebron definitely deserves money Like Jordan those last couple Bull years. He probably deserves more. Maybe you are right he wont care and we can both can revisit this when they negotiate the next CBA ... but even if he does disagree he may not be vocal publicly because like you said, he makes so much off the court it could come across as greedy.

But he has already stated how jealous he was when Miggy and others signed big deals. I think he was being honest with those reactions which come soon after this new CBA kicked in. Maybe he makes no fuss publicly but I do believe it bothers him privately. Nothing you posted changes that for me and my posting his quotes are just as valid as you pointing out he could have stayed with Cavs and just taken a max deal. IMHO he wanted to win and it wasnt coming fast enough in Cleveland so he left some money on the table ... doesnt prove to me it did not matter. Are you telling me if he could get it he would not want that back?

After dirk re-signed. I heard dirk's interview with Ben & Skin (local DFW radio) he said he flat out "I dont want a Kobe type deal (LOL) but I expect a deal fair to both sides". At this point he he got that. Sure, he could get more ... I never said guys never take less. My point is they want an offer that is close to their value. All the examples used were guys with diminished value (save Pedrooia). Even if they are still good or great players, even Peyton.

Btw, I want to be Lebron's agent! I would not let this fly ... Jammy. You can spin all the koom-bya stuff you want. Other players should take cuts and make sacrifices to play with Bron not the other way around ...

[lefty]

No . That is why I wouldnt have caved on this. Dude makes like 6-7 million less than Lebron. SMh ...

Which makes sense tbh

[Chinook]

Also true. But why should he have to sacrifice THAT much when like many of you have said Cavs couldnt build a proper team around him?

What? Talk about en led if he has that mindset. He chose winning over money, which is what he asked of quite a few of his teammates over the years. Kobe's constantly prioritized the opposite. Lebron as won more recently, and Kobe is getting paid more. That's just how it works.

[Killakobe81]

What? Talk about en led if he has that mindset. He chose winning over money, which is what he asked of quite a few of his teammates over the years. Kobe's constantly prioritized the opposite. Lebron as won more recently, and Kobe is getting paid more. That's just how it works.

No. I am not critiquing him at all. He took less to ring because that was the choice forced by the new CBA and his lack of patience. I am just saying the very best player in his prime should NOT HAVE to take so much less than his vale or have it artificially capped. by Placing the provisons it did the middle class of the NBA is overpaid awhile the franchise guys are getting underpaid. Except Kobe, but that's another story.

[Killakobe81]

What? Talk about en led if he has that mindset. He chose winning over money, which is what he asked of quite a few of his teammates over the years. Kobe's constantly prioritized the opposite. Lebron as won more recently, and Kobe is getting paid more. That's just how it works.

You also realize on the Cavs teams that get murdered on here for being sub-par Lebron wasnt even the highest paid player on THOSE teams?! Even in his MVP years? Does that make sense? Is that fair to him? Again I feel like I am being his agent and I know many support small market teams but would that be fair in corporate america. The highest salesman for example that makes the most money for his company being paid less than a mediocre salesman?

[baseline bum]

I dont care what cap is jumping to, I wouldnt have given him that contract when no one else was willing to. The suns med staff is best in the business, so that helps ... but his agent got his client want he wanted with little leverage. Props.

Didn't Bledsoe want 5 years, $85 million?

[Killakobe81]

Didn't Bledsoe want 5 years, $85 million?

Good question but could have just been negotiations maybe that 70 was the target because once suns went there it came through quickly ...either way he is overpaid but God bless him ...

[Chinook]

You also realize on the Cavs teams that get murdered on here for being sub-par Lebron wasnt even the highest paid player on THOSE teams?! Even in his MVP years? Does that make sense? Is that fair to him? Again I feel like I am being his agent and I know many support small market teams but would that be fair in corporate america. The highest salesman for example that makes the most money for his company being paid less than a mediocre salesman?

It has nothing to do with market. Cleveland would have paid him whatever he wanted. But they only reason why they had bigger contracts is because they acquired stars who sign contracts when they were also incredibly successful (you can argue that Shaq's career is still better than Lebron's). That's what happens in a league with long-term guaranteed deals. In the NFL, there's no max, and contracts are constantly negotiable. So you have players holding out and an increasing disparity between the top salaries and the rest. And yet the teams with the most skew are not the ones who are most successful.

Honestly, I think it's debatable whether stars are really underpaid in the NBA. There are plenty of formulae which suggest that role-players are the ones who don't make enough. Like if you go by win-shares : salary ratio, Duncan's actually overpaid compared to some other Spurs.

[Killakobe81]

It has nothing to do with market. Cleveland would have paid him whatever he wanted. But they only reason why they had bigger contracts is because they acquired stars who sign contracts when they were also incredibly successful (you can argue that Shaq's career is still better than Lebron's). That's what happens in a league with long-term guaranteed deals. In the NFL, there's no max, and contracts are constantly negotiable. So you have players holding out and an increasing disparity between the top salaries and the rest. And yet the teams with the most skew are not the ones who are most successful.

Honestly, I think it's debatable whether stars are really underpaid in the NBA. There are plenty of formulae which suggest that role-players are the ones who don't make enough. Like if you go by win-shares : salary ratio, Duncan's actually overpaid compared to some other Spurs.

Not until he was free agent, IIRC there already was a max deal in the previous CBA tied to rookie wage scale and years vested. Cavs could only pay him a max deal after that time-frame IIRC. I am not knocking Lebron or even the Cavs to me the system was and is ty. I dont want to go to MLB free-for-all but the NFL model maybe Lebron could get paid the average of the top 5 salaries so he could benefit as the star of the NBA from the deals given Kobe, Joe Johnson, Melo etc. that would seem fair. I am not crying for him. Lebron is uber rich and we go back to our regular lives as he eloquently put it ...

but love him hate him or indifferent if Hayward and Parson should get 15 Lebron deserves twice that I dont care what win shares says ...

[Brazil]

Spurs come out on top again. I would take Parker over Bledsoe at more money but at less that's a steal. And I forget they signed thomas wtf is PHX doing?

don't forget that on current contract only 41M was guaranteed

[JamStone]

Duncan Peyton and Dirk did so after they rang and after they both had max or near max deals. Dirk just finished a near max deal last year and I think the same applies to Peyton who was coming off serious injury in his last max type deal. Duncan was thought to be done from playing at an elite level just a few years ago so though I agree he too a substantial cut coming off back to back solid years (especially last one) none of those are where Lebron is NOW ... best player in the game still in his prime.

Pedroia was the only example you gave in his prime and although he is a very good player and one of the best 2nd basemen very out of place for this discussion. The other guys in this convo are first ballot HOF'ers. To go even further as nice as Dirk was he was never unquestioned as the best player in the game Timmy definitely was and when he was he was paid as such. Again I dont disagree with your entire rebuttal but I think we are looking at it from different perspectives.

Maybe you are right that MJ is not the perfect example since it was a different era ... but I think Lebron definitely deserves money Like Jordan those last couple Bull years. He probably deserves more. Maybe you are right he wont care and we can both can revisit this when they negotiate the next CBA ... but even if he does disagree he may not be vocal publicly because like you said, he makes so much off the court it could come across as greedy.

But he has already stated how jealous he was when Miggy and others signed big deals. I think he was being honest with those reactions which come soon after this new CBA kicked in. Maybe he makes no fuss publicly but I do believe it bothers him privately. Nothing you posted changes that for me and my posting his quotes are just as valid as you pointing out he could have stayed with Cavs and just taken a max deal. IMHO he wanted to win and it wasnt coming fast enough in Cleveland so he left some money on the table ... doesnt prove to me it did not matter. Are you telling me if he could get it he would not want that back?

After dirk re-signed. I heard dirk's interview with Ben & Skin (local DFW radio) he said he flat out "I dont want a Kobe type deal (LOL) but I expect a deal fair to both sides". At this point he he got that. Sure, he could get more ... I never said guys never take less. My point is they want an offer that is close to their value. All the examples used were guys with diminished value (save Pedrooia). Even if they are still good or great players, even Peyton.

Btw, I want to be Lebron's agent! I would not let this fly ... Jammy. You can spin all the koom-bya stuff you want. Other players should take cuts and make sacrifices to play with Bron not the other way around ...

You said, "no player wants to get paid below what they feel their value is."

You didn't say, "no superstar player in his prime who is the best player in his respective sport."

You said, "no player."

Each example I gave fits.

There is no spinning involved here.

[Killakobe81]

You said, "no player wants to get paid below what they feel their value is."

You didn't say, "no superstar player in his prime who is the best player in his respective sport."

You said, "no player."

Each example I gave fits.

There is no spinning involved here.

But my point Jam is that the examples you gave were players that value had diminished. I am asking you would those players take the deals they took in their prime. And I do stand by my statement as well. Yes players take money below market value ... there are plenty examples of ring chasers and stars like Pedroia that give hometown discounts. But they still in most cases take something that they feel is "fair". Maybe it's because they are older and have made plenty of money or to help a team. Maybe I phrased my response poorly, but the fact remains we were discussing Lebron in his prime taking what I believe is far below his value because of both the restrictions in the provision of the CBA and also because the market has pushed up salaries of players that are no where close to his value or production to his salary range. I still stand by that. Whether you feel he is overpaid, a saint for taking less I just feel it's a stupid system and I dont care how much he makes off the court. NBA is making so much more off him.

And the spin comment was directed at you per se, it was really meant at the thread with comments about his mentality or outlook (was that chinook). someone with leverage is never wrong to seek out their true worth imho

[baseline bum]

I just can't believe $70 million for Bledsoe. That's way too much based on only 1/2 a season of quality production even if you could guarantee me he'd have no more serious injuries. But factoring in his injury history that deal is ludicrous. I'd have let him walk for nothing before handing out that contract.

[JamStone]

But my point Jam is that the examples you gave were players that value had diminished. I am asking you would those players take the deals they took in their prime. And I do stand by my statement as well. Yes players take money below market value ... there are plenty examples of ring chasers and stars like Pedroia that give hometown discounts. But they still in most cases take something that they feel is "fair". Maybe it's because they are older and have made plenty of money or to help a team. Maybe I phrased my response poorly, but the fact remains we were discussing Lebron in his prime taking what I believe is far below his value because of both the restrictions in the provision of the CBA and also because the market has pushed up salaries of players that are no where close to his value or production to his salary range. I still stand by that. Whether you feel he is overpaid, a saint for taking less I just feel it's a stupid system and I dont care how much he makes off the court. NBA is making so much more off him.

And the spin comment was directed at you per se, it was really meant at the thread with comments about his mentality or outlook (was that chinook). someone with leverage is never wrong to seek out their true worth imho

It's not a matter of whether the value of those players had diminished. It's whether they believed they were worth more than what they took. Now neither you nor I can get into the heads of these players to truly say with any certainty what they believe their true value is/was at the time of those contract signings, but I can say with certainty that each of my examples were ones with players who could have gotten more money. So it's about them taking less than what they could have gotten.

I can acquiesce to disregard the Peyton Manning example because he was coming off of the neck injury. However, it is fact that he could have gotten more from the Broncos because they offered more. And while it's just my opinion, I am fairly certain Peyton had full faith in his ability and that he was worth any amount of money the Broncos were willing to pay. I believe they threw out an obnoxious salary at him and he went back to Elway and said something to the effect that they can just pay him the same exact salary as Tom Brady and not a penny more. I believe that's what I did.

With Tim Duncan, I'm not talking about his current contract where he's getting something like $10 million a year. Back in 2007, after the Spurs had just won their 4th le with Duncan winning another Finals MVP, Duncan and the Spurs agreed on an extension. This was when Duncan was still 31 years old and very much in his prime, and again coming off a championship. He left something like $11 million on the table to enable the Spurs some financial flexibility for future free agents. He took a lot less money, while still in his prime.

Dirk's current situation may be more of a stretch since he's already 36 years old. But then again, we're talking about a guy who is still a superstar and who last year put up per minute production that was right in line with his MVP season statistics with the exception of his rebounding. And when you look at how much less he took, it's dramatic. Even at Dirk's advanced age, is he really only worth $8 million a year? That's taking a ginormous paycut. You don't think he could have gotten more? You don't think he thinks he could have gotten more? You don't think he's worth more than $8 million a year?

"No player wants to get paid below what they feel their value is." Well, those players did imo. Not about being in their prime. Not about being the best player in the game. It's about players taking less than what they think they're worth. And there are examples.

Could LeBron make more money? Sure. Should LeBron make more money when we see the money guys like Eric Bledsoe get? Sure. But you're also talking about a guy in LeBron who has made over $130 million in NBA salary already and who's made that many times over in endorsement deals. The flaws in the NBA salary structure and the stupidity of owners handing out contracts like these and others like the Rashard Lewis and Gilbert Arenas contracts doesn't really affect a media, cultural megastar icon like LeBron. It just doesn't. It's not really his fight.

[Killakobe81]

It's not a matter of whether the value of those players had diminished. It's whether they believed they were worth more than what they took. Now neither you nor I can get into the heads of these players to truly say with any certainty what they believe their true value is/was at the time of those contract signings, but I can say with certainty that each of my examples were ones with players who could have gotten more money. So it's about them taking less than what they could have gotten.

I can acquiesce to disregard the Peyton Manning example because he was coming off of the neck injury. However, it is fact that he could have gotten more from the Broncos because they offered more. And while it's just my opinion, I am fairly certain Peyton had full faith in his ability and that he was worth any amount of money the Broncos were willing to pay. I believe they threw out an obnoxious salary at him and he went back to Elway and said something to the effect that they can just pay him the same exact salary as Tom Brady and not a penny more. I believe that's what I did.

With Tim Duncan, I'm not talking about his current contract where he's getting something like $10 million a year. Back in 2007, after the Spurs had just won their 4th le with Duncan winning another Finals MVP, Duncan and the Spurs agreed on an extension. This was when Duncan was still 31 years old and very much in his prime, and again coming off a championship. He left something like $11 million on the table to enable the Spurs some financial flexibility for future free agents. He took a lot less money, while still in his prime.

Dirk's current situation may be more of a stretch since he's already 36 years old. But then again, we're talking about a guy who is still a superstar and who last year put up per minute production that was right in line with his MVP season statistics with the exception of his rebounding. And when you look at how much less he took, it's dramatic. Even at Dirk's advanced age, is he really only worth $8 million a year? That's taking a ginormous paycut. You don't think he could have gotten more? You don't think he thinks he could have gotten more? You don't think he's worth more than $8 million a year?

"No player wants to get paid below what they feel their value is." Well, those players did imo. Not about being in their prime. Not about being the best player in the game. It's about players taking less than what they think they're worth. And there are examples.

Could LeBron make more money? Sure. Should LeBron make more money when we see the money guys like Eric Bledsoe get? Sure. But you're also talking about a guy in LeBron who has made over $130 million in NBA salary already and who's made that many times over in endorsement deals. The flaws in the NBA salary structure and the stupidity of owners handing out contracts like these and others like the Rashard Lewis and Gilbert Arenas contracts doesn't really affect a media, cultural megastar icon like LeBron. It just doesn't. It's not really his fight.

Fair points, but like I said in my reply above ... I never meant to imply there are never player like Tim or Pedroia that offer hometown discounts ... I should have added the term "fair value" to illustrate that better. But even without "fair" are you telling me that Tim duncan if he could have gotten more but also helped the team he would not have taken that route? I think we all agree he is unselfish and a team and community guy again I am just saying that to me it doesnt make sense for Ducan in the deal you mentioned having to sacrifice while a guy that joined a few seasons later like RJ gets what he does for producing much less?

For me it all comes back to the stupidity of the owners. Every CBA negotiations in all sports they argue that they need to control costs for the good of the league. And so they put in provisions to do so. But right after they throw out huge contracts to non superstars like candy. Maybe some of this is a bit personal because I went through a layoff in the banking industry a few years back, but i just strongly feel that a player like James or prime duncan no matter how much he made previously or makes off the courts shouldnt have to suffer (relative) and sacrifice so owners can pay cats like Bledsoe. Just like in corporate america they tell you that budgets are tight but pay CEO golden parachutes and woo client in expensive ways. It's all bull . I just dont trust them greedy bas s so I guess when I feel a player like James is getting an unfair deal I side with them.

Good news is the Spurs have mostly avoided most of this they win but are careful with spending. And that's because they have great ownership and leadership. But they still made the RJ trade/Signing so even they are not perfect. Maybe Tim is so self-less that it does not bother him a scrub like RJ was making bank but I have no shame admitting that it would bother me.

Back to Lebron I also stand by statement it bothers James despite him leaving the max deal structure to go to Miami. the comments about Miggy, even the comments floated through his camp about him never being the highest paid player on the team ...that is just voicing what I believe to be his thoughts. Will he make that fight? No because he will look like an ass. But he should even if not for himself but for the next superstar who is getting taken advantage of by that system. I know it's crazy to say that when the NBA platform is a big part of why he is famous but I still feel it is unfair to him.

I Appreciate you keeping it classy as always Jam, and even though we disagree some here, I always appreciate your insight. And again I freely admit I could have worded my thought better.


Oh by the way (not at you) I am so "salty" about Lebron calling him a GOAT arguing he is being screwed over by league ... Im such a hater!!!! so insecure, so threatened!!!

[cd021]

Eh, they'll probably get in over Memphis if they can stay reasonably healthy.

I agree, though, that the cap rising is going to change the way people see a lot of deals. As I said in another thread, the MLE in 2017 should be in the $30M/4 range. So Eric's deal will be closer to a $55M/5 in terms of impact on the cap.

The problem is obviously that if Bledsoe can't stay healthy or doesn't continue to improve, then he'll be a bad contract no matter how you want to look at it. That's why the Suns would be smart to trade him off to a team like Minny come the 15th of January.

I disagree on Memphis missing the postseason over Phoenix.

I still think Memphis will make the postseason over Phoenix. I don't think Phoenix is a bad team but i'm skeptical that they can repeat their success from last season. I could see them missing the postseason by 3 or 4 games.

They went 36-15 in 2014 and 32-13 (.711) after Gasol came back in mid-January. They struggled a bit early on with several new rotation players and a new coach but played very well after that.

I think Houston missing the postseason is more of a possibility of any of the western conference playoffs teams from last season.

Not much scoring punch or a bench. Also Howard just hasn't been the same player he was during the 10'-'11 season on either sides of the ball.

[Killakobe81]

But my point Jam is that the examples you gave were players that value had diminished. I am asking you would those players take the deals they took in their prime. And I do stand by my statement as well. Yes players take money below market value ... there are plenty examples of ring chasers and stars like Pedroia that give hometown discounts. But they still in most cases take something that they feel is "fair". Maybe it's because they are older and have made plenty of money or to help a team. Maybe I phrased my response poorly, but the fact remains we were discussing Lebron in his prime taking what I believe is far below his value because of both the restrictions in the provision of the CBA and also because the market has pushed up salaries of players that are no where close to his value or production to his salary range. I still stand by that. Whether you feel he is overpaid, a saint for taking less I just feel it's a stupid system and I dont care how much he makes off the court. NBA is making so much more off him.

And the spin comment was directed at you per se, it was really meant at the thread with comments about his mentality or outlook (was that chinook). someone with leverage is never wrong to seek out their true worth imho

Well, well well ...

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/11...-tv-deal-place

1. Lebron is rightfully hinting just like I said not just fighting for himself (though I am sure that is part of it) but all players.
2. I told yall the comments about the max contacts signed in other sports Lebron had noticed ...
3. Sure he makes plenty on endorsements but why should he take less when owners getting huge TV money and overpaying scrubs
4. He signed a short deal so he could benefit from new TV deal
5. Again he has ever right to feel the above ... he by far the best player in the game he is not Dirk, Tim or even Kobe ...