Opinion is usually supported by facts, any particular game you can point to? Homerism is just saying IMO my guy is better than yours.Uh.... ?
From when I've seen Brand play, I've thought his post defense wasn't as good as Jermaine's.
It is just an opinion, feel free to disagree with it.
No, I don't have a video compilation of Brand's post defense vs. Jermaine's post defense. I'd love to see yours though if you have one.
How is that homerism? Just because I prefer not to turn the whole thing into a giant pissing match with goofy stats....?
I think Jermaine is a pretty good defender, but not great. I put Brand slightly below JO when it comes to post defense. They both are good shotblockers.
I do think Jermaine's height and length compared to Brand plays a part in it.
Finally some substance. JO is taller so you think he's a better defender.
I prefer to look at shot blocking and steals.
Height can be deceiving when it comes to defense or else YAO would be DPOY every year and not Ben Wallace.
I've never understood the facination with Jermaine Oneal. I think he's a little over-rated. Everytime I watched a Pacers game last season, I wasn't that impressed with him. His defense is sub-par, his playing seems erratic and inconsistent, and he doesn't put up the great assists numbers that other PF's like Duncan and Garnett put up. Now, I can see him in the top 10 PF list....but #4? Plus, he has yet to win anything significant or make it to the NBA Finals....
Maybe I'm just watching him when he's playing sub-par. While I think he's a good player, I just don't see what the big hype over him is.
If his jumpshot isn't rolling he struggles.
Tony Delk didn't average 24+ points either... he was a fluke that night... good comeback though
You just made my point for me. jermaine7fan, YOU were the one to bring up the "50 points in one game" thing so laugh at your own self. By the way, Tony Delk has had at least two 50 point games that I can remember. Still doesn't change the fact that having a 50 point game doesn't mean you're an elite player, yet YOU liked to use the argument as it pertained to Jermaine O'Neal versus Rasheed Wallace, but find it nonsensical if applied to Tony Delk versus other elite guards ... irony.
I guess you and I have a difference of opinion on what "A LOT YOUNGER" means ...
KG is just over 2 years older than JO, and has been in the league for a HUGE one more season than him.
Duncan is also just over 2 years older than JO, and actually came into the NBA a year after Jermaine.
Dirk is a whopping FOUR MONTHS older than Jermaine, and has played in two fewer NBA seasons.
If Jermaine is twice the player Rasheed Wallace is, then when the two play each other, he shouldn't allow Rasheed to continually punk him in the post. You'll find very few basketball experts, analysts, or writers that will argue that talent-wise and skill-wise, Rasheed as as good as any power forward in the league. And, while some people will argue that Rasheed doesn't put up the big numbers, a lot of people find his unselfishness and apathy towards individual statistics as a POSITIVE attribute. On a team like the Detroit Pistons, Rasheed doesn't need to average 20 points a game or 9 rebounds a game, and in fact doing so might be detrimental to the team given the balance in scoring and the team oriented nature of both the offense and defense.
But, JERMAINE7FAN, people like you will look ONLY at statistics and value them more than team success or team chemistry. You will tote the fact that Jermaine averaged 24 ppg last season but not acknowledge the fact that Jermaine only played about 45 regular season games and the majority of those games were without the team's SECOND OPTION on offense in Ron Artest, so his scoring production was skewed. Jermaine is still an excellent talent, but is more of a 18-20 ppg scorer AS THE NUMBER 1 OPTION. Rasheed is not the number one option on the Pistons. He's usually not the number two option either. But, that doesn't mean that talent wise he's not as good as Jermaine O'Neal.
You can have your opinion and think Jermaine is twice the player as Rasheed. I will respectfully disagree and be happy with Rasheed not being better than Jermaine if it means the Pistons as a team and organization continues to have better success than Jermaine O'Neal and his team.
Jermaine O'Neal is 26 years, 10 months, 4 weeks old
- Rasheed Wallace is 4 years and 1 month older than JO. That's a very signifigant margin.
- Kevin Garnett is 2 years, 4 months older. A fairly signifigant differential.
- Tim Duncan is 2 years, 5 monts older. Once again, a fairly signifigant differential.
- Dirk is 4 months older. Very little differential.
So outside of Dirk, the other three players are substantianally older than Jermaine, particularly Rasheed. Where as JO has yet to hit his physical peak, KG and Duncan are currently in theirs, and Sheed is past his.
Now as for in-game experience.....
Jermaine O'Neal has played 14,949 career minutes.
- Rasheed Wallace has played 24,530 career minutes. That's an additional 9,581 career minutes, or, based on Sheeds career mpg, an additional 278 games. That's 3.4 seasons.
- Kevin Garnett has played in 29,605 career minutes. That's an additional 14,656 career minutes, or, based on KGs career mpg, an additional 384 games. That's 4.7 seasons.
- Tim Duncan has played in 22,444 career minutes. That's an additional 7,495 career minutes, or, based on Duncans career mpg, an additional 196 games. That's 2.4 seasons.
- Dirk Nowitzki has played 18,949 career minutes. That's an additional 4,000 minutes, or, based on Dirks career mpg, an additional 110 career games. That's 1.3 seasons.
So once again, Jermaine O'Neal has signifigantly less NBA on-court experience than the other four men.
Jermaine O'Neal is the youngest of the five. Jermaine O'Neal is the least experienced of the five. It's only natural to assume that Jermaine O'Neal also has the most untapped potential of the five.
GAME 1 - November 19, 2004
Jermaine - 20 points, 13 rebounds, 3 assists
Rasheed - 19 points, 10 rebounds, 1 assist
Winner - Jermaine O'Neal
GAME 2 - December 25, 2004
21 points, 7 rebounds, 1 assist, 5 blocks
Rasheed - 16 points, 6 rebounds, 0 assist, 1 block
Winner - Jermaine O'Neal
GAME 3 - January 27, 2005
Jermaine - 27 points, 9 rebounds, 2 assists, 4 blocks
Rasheed - 13 points, 7 rebounds, 5 assists, 1 block
Winner - Jermaine O'Neal
GAME 4 - March 25, 2005
Jermaine - DNP
Rasheed - 15 points, 6 rebounds, 1 assist, 2 blocks
Winner - N/A, although if the prior games are any indication, JO would've easily bested those run-of-the-mill numbers.
GAME 5 - May 9, 2005 (ECR2 G1)
Jermaine - 22 points, 7 rebounds, 0 assist, 2 blocks
Rasheed - 11 points, 7 rebounds, 2 assists, 2 blocks
Winner - Jermaine O'Neal
GAME 6 - May 11, 2005 (ECR2 G2)
Jermaine - 22 points, 10 rebounds, 3 assists, 5 blocks
Rasheed - 14 points, 6 rebounds, 1 assist, 3 blocks
Winner - Jermaine O'Neal
GAME 7 - May 13, 2005 (ECR2 G3)
Jermaine - 8 points, 6 rebounds, 2 assists, 2 blocks
Rasheed - 13 points, 9 rebounds, 0 assist, 2 blocks
Winner - *gasp!* Rasheed Wallace! It took probably the worst game of JO's season, but Sheed finally gets the best of him.
GAME 8 - May 15, 2005 (ECR2 G4)
Jermaine - 10 points, 13 rebounds, 3 assists, 3 blocks
Rasheed - 17 points, 12 rebounds, 0 assist, 5 blocks
Winner - Rasheed with 2 in a row!
GAME 9 - May 17, 2005 (ECR2 G5)
Jermaine - 14 points, 3 rebounds, 0 assist, 2 blocks
Rasheed - 10 points, 8 rebounds, 0 assist, 2 blocks
Winner - Rasheed, barely
GAME 10 - May 19, 2005 (ECR2 G6)
Jermaine - 22 points, 11 rebounds, 0 assist, 3 blocks
Rasheed - 14 points, 11 rebounds, 2 assists, 0 blocks
Winner - Jermaine O'Neal
So of the 9 games they played last year, JO won 6, Sheed won 3. The only 3 games Rasheed won were games in which JO was playing at no better than 85% with a bum shoulder. Games in which the 85% JO was defended by the DPOY, while Sheed was defended by an 85% JO.
That's NBA "experts" being theor usual uninformed selfs. The truth is, while Rasheed has good length to be a fairly good defender, his offensive game is only average, as his post moves are subpar. He's also a piss poor rebounder, one of the main aspects of a big mans game. And that's just his physical play. You have to understand, the game of basketball is atleast 50% mental. And Rasheed Wallace is the mental equivalence of Earl Boykins. Overlooking the mental aspect of basketball proves just how little these experts, and you yourself, actually know.
No. It's because he doesn't have what it takes to be a great basketball player. That was proven everywhere he's player from UNC to Washington to Portland to Atlanta
Jermaine took a measely 1.5 more shots per game than last year. His increased points per game was primarily due to his increase of +3 in free throw attempts per game, and an increase of 1.8% in his field goal percentage. And remember, Artest's missing offense was replaced by Reggie Miller and to a lesser extent Jamaal Tinsley and James Jones.
Actually, over the past 4 years JO has averaged 20.7 points per game. And he's getting better all the time, evidenced by the fact that his points per game have increased 6 of his past 7 years in the league. I'd say he's more of a 21-22 point per game scorer at this point in time.
And as for JO being the #1 option whereas Rasheed is the #2/3 option - there's a reason for that. Jermaine is the better offensive player, by a good margin. Believe you me, if JO was on the Pistons, he'd be the unquestionable #1 option, not the #3 option behind a career 40% shooter and one-dimensional jump shooter.
Jermaine O'Neal is better than Rasheed Wallace, and it's mot even close. Get over it. You don't see Pacer fans claiming that Bender is better than Prince even though Bender is the more physically gifted player.
Jermaine O'Neal is a perenial All-Star, perenial All-NBA player, and perenial top-5ish MVP candidate. Rasheed can't even make the All-Star team in the East where a guy like Antawn Jamison can.
Jermaine is a better player than Rasheed, but Rasheed pretty much owns JO in the individual matchup.
TheArtestFactor,
1. Jermaine7fan never mentioned Rasheed Wallace being A LOT OLDER than Jermaine O'Neal and I didn't argue the point, so you can take him off of your comparative age analysis. NOT EVEN IN THE NBA is 2 years A HUGE DIFFERENCE between people. KG also came out of high school, and Tim Duncan and Dirk Nowitzki came into the league AFTER Jermaine O'Neal.
2. IT IS NOT any one else's fault but Jermaine's that he was NOT GOOD ENOUGH to unseat Rasheed Wallace from the starting spot or even get MORE MINUTES. Again Jermaine got into the league BEFORE Tim Duncan AND Dirk Nowitzki, and only ONE YEAR AFTER KG. When the Trailblazers drafted ZACH RANDOLPH, by his second year, he was so good, they couldn't keep him on the bench, so they pushed Rasheed Wallace to the small forward spot to give Zach minutes at the PF. How come Jermaine O'Neal couldn't do that? Your "minutes" argument holds no weight because it was Jermaine's own fault he didn't get more minutes.
3. I like how you will boast about "regular season" games in the Jermaine-Rasheed match-up like they even remotely mean something compared to the playoffs. YOU yourself, ArtestFactor, see that in the playoffs, Rasheed handles Jermaine pretty well. Complain about the BUM SHOULDER all you want. It's a nice excuse. It's a mentality of justifying losing. Those ECF games prove Jermaine is not "TWICE THE PLAYER" Rasheed is. Of course, Jermaine is capable of having big games, and he had two of them early, but when it came crunch time, Jermaine didn't look good until game 6 when the series was basically already decided.
4. Those "uninformed experts" you talk about also think Shaquille O'Neal is the most dominant force in the NBA, LeBron James is the next greatest thing in basketball, Ron Artest is the best two-way perimeter player in the league, and Rick Carlisle is one of the top 5 coaches in the NBA. I guess they're wrong about those as well? And, if Rasheed Wallace is the "mental equivalent" of Earl Boykins, then what does that say about Jermaine O'Neal over whom Rasheed has a psychological advantage? I guess Jermaine O'Neal is the "mental equivalent" to Emmanuel Lewis then?
5. Rasheed Wallace has had winning teams every where he's played. If you want a perenniel loser, look at a guy like Shareef Abdur-Rahim or Elton Brand. To label Rasheed someone who is doesn't have what it takes to be great would basically be saying every power forward except for Tim Duncan doesn't have what it takes to be great. And, your list of the best power forwards should be 1. Tim Duncan, 2. Robert Horry, 3. Rasheed Wallace, 4. Samaki Walker because those are really the only current power forwards who have gone all the way to win championships in recent years as starters.No. It's because he doesn't have what it takes to be a great basketball player. That was proven everywhere he's player from UNC to Washington to Portland to Atlanta up to Detroit. And by the way, his "unselfish" has led to a career 1.9 assists per game. Wow.
6. You do know that more foul shots basically mean MORE TOUCHES, and that being fouled on shot attempts do not STATISTICALLY equate to a FGA, right? He got more free throws because he got more touches. And, that's exactly my point. He takes 1.5 more FGA and gets 3 more free throws per game, and gets 4 more points. With a healthy Artest, he would get fewer FGA and fewer free throws, and is likely more of a 18-20 ppg scorer. You didn't refute that claim.
7. On the Pistons, I believe Jermaine would be the second option after Rip Hamilton because the Detroit offense runs most smoothly when Rip is dictating ball movement by his usage of screens and taking midrange shots. And, Jermaine O'Neal WOULD NOT average 20 ppg on a Pistons team with Chauncey, Rip and Tayshaun. And, if he did, it would hurt the team. AND, you can believe Jermaine WOULD NOT average 10 rpg on a frontline with BEN WALLACE. You would be crazy to believe that.
8. I have said a few times now that Jermaine O'Neal is better than Rasheed. I only qualify it by saying Jermaine is not THAT MUCH better than Rasheed. Using a Bender / Prince analogy is stupid, and it shows your bias. Both Rasheed and Jermaine are proven starters in the NBA. And, while Tayshaun Prince was a 39 mpg starting small forward last year, Jonathan Bender is a perennial 5 games per season injury waiting to happen mistake. That comparison just basically says you really don't want to argue facts. No, a fair comparison to Jermaine v. Rasheed is Chauncey Billups v. Jamaal Tinsley. And, if you think Jermaine O'Neal is twice the player that Rasheed is, then it would be fair to say that Chauncey Billups is twice the player that Jamaal Tinsley is. I don't believe that to be true, but that is more of a fair comparison to Jermaine v. Rasheed. And, by the way, Jermaine is a perennial all star in the EASTERN CONFERENCE, where in the last few years the only other good power forwards were Kenyon Martin and Antoine Walker. And, you want to brag about all-star selections. Again, shows a loser mentality, because individual accoladees are more important than team success to you Pacer fans. Last year was the only full season Rasheed had in the Eastern Conference, and his numbers didn't merit an all star selection. And, he doesn't care because his team WINS. On this Detroit team, Rasheed won't put up all-star numbers. Rasheed also has a bad reputation at this point, and probably won't be in another all star game. You Pacer fans can have all the all star bids you want, I'll take more championships, or at least a better chance at more championships.
Rasheed taught Jermaine a lot about playing in the league.
Rasheed has all of the same physical talents and skills as Jermaine.
Rasheed has gone deep in the playoffs in both the Western Conference and the Eastern Conference.
Rasheed has showed he has a mental advantage over Jermaine O'Neal these last two post seasons.
I can admit Jermaine O'Neal is a better player than Rasheed. Again, it's just NOT BY MUCH. Shaquille O'Neal is a better player than Ben Wallace, but we punked him in the playoffs the last two years too.
Uh...buddy....did you not see the head to head matchups from the past year? JO absolutely dominates Rasheed, the only time Sheed even had a chance was when JO was injured ao badly he shouldnt have been playing, and even then it was 50/50.
Have you ever watched Jermaine score on Rasheed in the post?
OF COURSE YOU HAVEN'T! He can't!
Well, he's doing something right beucase he pretty much dominates him.
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