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  1. #51
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    How about something other than from a bikers forum, eh?
    Fallacy: Ad Hominem

    Description of Ad Hominem

    Translated from Latin to English, "Ad Hominem" means "against the man" or "against the person."

    An Ad Hominem is a general category of fallacies in which a claim or argument is rejected on the basis of some irrelevant fact about the author of or the person presenting the claim or argument. Typically, this fallacy involves two steps. First, an attack against the character of person making the claim, her cir stances, or her actions is made (or the character, cir stances, or actions of the person reporting the claim). Second, this attack is taken to be evidence against the claim or argument the person in question is making (or presenting). This type of "argument" has the following form:

    1. Person A makes claim X.
    2. Person B makes an attack on person A.
    3. Therefore A's claim is false.

    The reason why an Ad Hominem (of any kind) is a fallacy is that the character, cir stances, or actions of a person do not (in most cases) have a bearing on the truth or falsity of the claim being made (or the quality of the argument being made).


    Please try harder than this...

  2. #52
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    I did. Okay, well, I didn't exactly ask an astronomer but, I did go to a verifiable web site to check your information...the University of Alabama Department of Physics and Astronomy. (Please note, this is not a forum for beginning bikers) Here's what I found.

    This is a photograph of Comet Shoemaker-Levy 9 in a V-band image obtained 19 June 1993 with the Lowell Observatory 1.1-meter telescope. Seen about 13 months before Jupiter impact.

    I also learned the comet was discovered in March of 1993...

    Wow, you process information slowly if you think 13 to 17 months isn't much longer than several days.

    I'm guessing, (and please don't take this as an "ad hominem attack" because, well, it's based on your stupid answers in this thread), that with your grasp of astronomical phenomena, you have a similar position on global warming...alarmist and ill-informed by agendized "scientific" google finds.
    Nice googling champ!

    (sighs)

    Let me restate something so you can understand what I said, and not set up another strawman...

    We have cataloged very very few of the the Near Earth Objects that threaten us. If you recall the Shumacher-Levy comets that punched Earth-sized holes in Jupiter, they were discovered by pure chance so that we had enough warning to watch them do their damage.


    I did NOT say that we had little/no warning. I DID say that it was lucky we saw them.

    Since you decided to step up even though I told you that I know more than you do, let me show you what I WILL say as certified fact.

  3. #53
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    If you had actually not been so lazy as to not bother to educate yourself about something before questioning what I know, here is a simple, easy to read bit.

    Do a google search under the phrase: "near earth object search".

    Follow the first link to appear, it should be this:
    http://www.lowell.edu/users/elgb/loneos_disc.html

    In it you will find the following text, with the bolded sections my added emphasis:

    "LONEOS
    The Lowell Observatory Near-Earth Object Search
    Overview

    LONEOS is a system designed to find Earth-crossing asteroids (ECAs) and comets (ECCs), collectively known as near-Earth objects (NEOs). These objects can occasionally collide with Earth sometimes with devastating consequences. Finding large NEOs is the first step in averting a collision.

    For a good description of NEOs, see The Spaceguard Survey .

    It is thought that there are about 1600 ECAs larger than 1 km in diameter. Only about 100 are known. To find the remainder - or most of them - will require dedicated telescopes that survey the sky for many years. Currently, only one such search telescope is in full-time operation: Spacewatch .

    LONEOS, and other systems under development, will supplement the work of Spacewatch. LONEOS should have the capability to scan the entire dark sky accessible from Flagstaff, Arizona, three times per month for a magnitude limit near V=20...


    Please, ask an astromer to verify this, if you really think it is false. (begin humor) maybe the guy who wrote this was a beginning biker(/end humor)

  4. #54
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    BUT let me return to my original point:

    The federal response was haphazard, and ill-coordinated in the beginning. Some stuff did get there pretty quickly, but there was a big time lapse for the majority of the help because it took a couple of days for the magnitude of this to become apparent to the disinterested Bush leadership.

    FEMA planned for the last disaster, not this one. When it became apparent that things weren't working well, and that extra help was available, FEMA dithered because things didn't fit with their plan. Failure to plan for reality is part and parcel of this administration's modus operendi. Garbage in, garbage out. Planning can only be done with reasonable assumptions, and this administration doesn't care enough to know/find out enough to start with those reasonable assumptions, so their plannning is invariably piss-poor.

  5. #55
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    Dan has a really good friend in RandomGuy. And the name is relevent too. He
    really is Random in his thoughts. Forgot he is an expert on the heavens.

    Dan congratulations, your reading habits are really improving. Next thing you know
    real books or the editorial page. Yeah they have comics there too.
    Yawn. Not even worth a reply. Merely derision...
    Last edited by RandomGuy; 09-17-2005 at 12:02 AM.

  6. #56
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    Still unanswered: [name one specific occurance]
    Perhaps you would believe something from a conservative source...

    http://www.californiaconservative.org/?p=784

    The pansies at FEMA decided to cut and run after a Helicopter was shot at, costing two days. People at FEMA need to be held accountable… and HEADS SHOULD ROLL, what a pathetic, weak decision.

    Another one, hundreds of private citizens with boats were not allowed to go into new Orleans to bring people out over paranoia over the criminal element running loose. I’d also hazard a guess that those Bayou boaters that showed up were armed themselves… If I was in charge, I’d have sent everone in that wanted to help.



    Or maybe you would believe Trent Lott?

    Sen. Trent Lott berated both the Federal Emergency Management Agency and his own state’s emergency management, MEMA, for being mired in red tape at a time of urgent need given the devastation left by Hurricane Katrina.

    Lott said he has been trying to get FEMA to send 20,000 trailers “sitting in Atlanta” to the Mississippi coast, and he urged President Bush during a meeting Monday to intervene. He said FEMA has refused to ship the trailers until contracts are secured.

    “FEMA and MEMA need to be saying, ‘Yes’ to Mississippi’s needs, not, ‘No.,” the former majority leader said in a written statement.

    “Mississippians are homeless, hungry and hurting.”

    Similar stories of governmental red tape have been reported elsewhere, including a case of 100 surgeons and paramedics hindered from caring for hurricane victims in rural Mississippi. (Full story)

    “This is an emergency situation without peer, like nothing our generation has ever encountered,” Lott said. “If suffering people along the Gulf Coast, from Mobile to New Orleans, are going to recover as soon as possible, we’ll need an unprecedented public and private effort that can’t be hampered by a process geared toward much lesser disasters.”

    http://sayanythingblog.com/2005/09/0...all-over-fema/

  7. #57
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    Let me know when I have found something specific....

  8. #58
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    Let me know when I have found something specific....
    Okay, I will.

  9. #59
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    Okay, I will [tell you when you give me something specific]
    Actually you won't, because you are as unable to admit fault as most idealogues are.

    , even Bush finally showed that he can admit fault. He took responsibility only when he was forced to by his advisors, but hey, he did it, yay for him.

    I ask again:

    What level of proof do you require to be able to say:

    "It is reasonable to say that the FEMA f***ed up."?
    Last edited by RandomGuy; 09-16-2005 at 06:39 PM.

  10. #60
    I don't really care... Yonivore's Avatar
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    What level of proof do you require to be able to say:

    "It is reasonable to say that the FEMA f***ed up."?
    And action or inaction, by FEMA, that worsened the disaster or cause greater loss of life or property and that can't be ascribed to the normal anectdotal SNAFU's that occur in the midst of an ongoing disaster.

    Something like, opening a shelter in a flooded city then failing to stock it with supplies and security; or, turning the Red Cross away at the city limits because you didn't want people to be encouraged to stay; or, abandoning those unable to flee and allowing a fleet of busses to drown, that could have been used to evacuate those people...

    That kind of stuff.

    Then, verify it.

  11. #61
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    And action or inaction, by FEMA, that worsened the disaster or cause greater loss of life or property and that can't be ascribed to the normal anectdotal SNAFU's that occur in the midst of an ongoing disaster.

    Something like, opening a shelter in a flooded city then failing to stock it with supplies and security; or, turning the Red Cross away at the city limits because you didn't want people to be encouraged to stay; or, abandoning those unable to flee and allowing a fleet of busses to drown, that could have been used to evacuate those people...

    That kind of stuff.

    Then, verify it.
    Um, I already did that. I found two or three first hand accounts from medical volunteers and Senator Trent Lott no less.

    Or maybe that Lott guy was making things up...

  12. #62
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    Actually you won't, because you are as unable to admit fault as most idealogues are.

    , even Bush finally showed that he can admit fault. He took responsibility only when he was forced to by his advisors, but hey, he did it, yay for him.

    I ask again:

    What level of proof do you require to be able to say:

    "It is reasonable to say that the FEMA f***ed up."?
    R.O., I am still waiting on an answer for this...

  13. #63
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    still waiting...

  14. #64
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    and waiting...

  15. #65
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    and waiting

  16. #66
    I don't really care... Yonivore's Avatar
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    Um, I already did that. I found two or three first hand accounts from medical volunteers and Senator Trent Lott no less.

    Or maybe that Lott guy was making things up...
    I appreciate your patience.

    All anecdotal and Trent Lott is just wrong. Fact remains, this was the quickest federal response to any disaster in the history of the country. Period.

    Your "first hand accounts" are from people who aren't in a position to see the big picture and know the reasons behind some of the decisions made. For instance, how many were aware that Doctors were held at bay for 5 days while the Governor dilly-dallied over whether or not to waive licensing requirements...

    , it was a ing disaster, some SNAFUS are inevitable...but, there was not a systemic failure on the part of the federal response. What's the death toll? How many of those died because of a lack of action on the part of the federal government? And, how many died because they were abandoned by their caretakers or the city who waved off Amtrack and let the buses drown? How many would still be alive if the federal government has usurped the State's authority and moved troops into New Orleans on Monday and started forcibly removing residents in direct violation of the U.S. Cons ution and the Posse Comitatus act? I dare say the uproar over such an event would have just caused more chaos and death.

    And, Trent Lott? Pandering to his cons uents...giving people like you some red meat and boosting himself in the local polls. That's all that was.

    Give me an example of where things would have turned out significantly better had the federal government been in New Orleans sooner. Then, tell me why the Governor resisted handing over authority to the federal government at every turn.

  17. #67
    I don't really care... Yonivore's Avatar
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    ::bump:: for RG

  18. #68
    I don't really care... Yonivore's Avatar
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    VDH says it better than me...


    Remember all of this about Hurricane Katrina?

    The destruction was the result of global warming. And it was made worse by too many troops off in Iraq. Endemic racism and neglected environmental legislation were as toxic as flood. Military assets were unused due to incompetence or heartlessness. The neglect of the victims was an indictment of a crass and uncaring society.

    But none of that ad hoc "analysis" proved conclusive.

    Yes, Hurricane Katrina revealed swearing, crying and stupefied public officials at all levels. Their initial paralysis may have endangered some lives.

    But the media's coverage turned out to be almost as disturbing as natural calamity and initial bureaucratic ineptness — in both the falsehood it spread and the truth it ignored. Political commentators proved more disturbing, seeking to turn death to partisan advantage.

    The public was given few facts about what really happened among those trapped, especially the human mayhem that took place. Most would appreciate evidence before sweeping cultural analysis of half-reported stories that were not followed up because they were either untrue or politically incorrect.

    Did hundreds of New Orleans' police — so unlike their New York 9/11 counterparts —really walk off the job or never report for duty amid the crisis?

    Did law enforcement often allow the stubborn to stay behind and then ignore looters at the height of the peril — only later to evict survivors trying to rebuild when the waters receded?

    Did looters (in search of food or clothing?) really attempt to vandalize the national shrine of the D-Day Museum that survived the flood waters?

    And too many of the hysterical pronouncements of ill-informed officials were reported as gospel truth — and then forgotten — in 24-hour bursts. So "25,000 body bags!" and "10,000 dead" beneath the muck of a submerged city were quietly superseded by the matter-of-fact news reports that the airport would open shortly.

    Now we are also told that Mardi Gras may be back on schedule. How could such radical improvement happen at ground zero in a city of corpses that supposedly would not recover for decades?

    Most people concluded on their own, without help from any talking heads, that one of the worst natural disasters in American history had at first stunned local, state and federal governments, brought out the worst in Louisiana politics and incited a criminal element.

    But soon even the ill-prepared mayor of New Orleans and the green director of FEMA found themselves with untold resources at their disposal in a way that was not true of the far greater tolls of recent catastrophes elsewhere. Do we remember France, where 15,000 neglected elderly died without air conditioning (August 2003); or the earthquake at Bam, Iran (December 2003), where 40,000 were crushed, often in substandard housing; or the over 200,000 Southeast Asians (December 2004) who drowned or were buried without warning from an unmonitored tsunami?

    New Orleans also exposed the misery of a large underclass in need of attention from the rest of America — and of radical self-introspection.

    Reporters' clichés about "racist" America were often at odds with the evidence of their own film footage. Black and white pulled together in Mississippi and thus avoided social chaos. Billions in aid, both private and public, poured into New Orleans from Americans worried sick over their fellow citizens, regardless of race.

    After the initial shock, that enormous relief effort turned real catastrophe into salvation: levees patched, thousands of troops on the street, tens of thousands bussed and flown to safe quarters across the country.

    But New Orleans also confirmed how a 24/7, hyper media create and then deflate controversies of the day, from the Aruba embarrassment to Cindy Sheehan's circus.

    Thus reports of deaths changed by the hour — not by a magnitude of dozens, but by thousands. New alerts flashed that a toxic soup was nearly lethal to the touch even as we watched rescuers wade through it. We were assured that stagnant water would submerge the city for months, even as our screens showed dry, lighted streets, torrents pumped back out and pools evaporating under scorching heat.

    Using its Iraqi template, the wired media's one constant is not amazing human resilience but hyped gloom. Later corrections and downgrades seldom make the headlines like their past blaring inaccuracies.

    For all the media's efforts to turn the natural disaster of New Orleans into either a racist nightmare, a death knell for one or the other political parties or an indictment of American culture at large, it was none of that at all. What we did endure instead were slick but poorly educated journalists, worried not about truth but about preempting their rivals with an ever more hysterical story, all in a fuzzy context of political correctness about race, the environment and the war.

    Let ghoulish CNN file suit against the government to film all the bloated corpses it can find. Let a pontificating PBS "NewsHour" conduct more televised roundtables with grim-faced elites searching out purported national racism. But few any longer trust a frenzied media whose reporters and commentators continually prove as incompetent as they are disingenuous.

    Was it too much to ask reporters to look to history to judge this recovery against other past disasters here and abroad? Could they have strived for accuracy instead of ratings — and at least made sure that the images from their cameras did not refute their own predetermined scripts?

  19. #69
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    I appreciate your patience.

    All anecdotal and Trent Lott is just wrong. Fact remains, this was the quickest federal response to any disaster in the history of the country. Period.

    Your "first hand accounts" are from people who aren't in a position to see the big picture and know the reasons behind some of the decisions made. For instance, how many were aware that Doctors were held at bay for 5 days while the Governor dilly-dallied over whether or not to waive licensing requirements...

    , it was a ing disaster, some SNAFUS are inevitable...but, there was not a systemic failure on the part of the federal response. What's the death toll? How many of those died because of a lack of action on the part of the federal government? And, how many died because they were abandoned by their caretakers or the city who waved off Amtrack and let the buses drown? How many would still be alive if the federal government has usurped the State's authority and moved troops into New Orleans on Monday and started forcibly removing residents in direct violation of the U.S. Cons ution and the Posse Comitatus act? I dare say the uproar over such an event would have just caused more chaos and death.

    And, Trent Lott? Pandering to his cons uents...giving people like you some red meat and boosting himself in the local polls. That's all that was.

    Give me an example of where things would have turned out significantly better had the federal government been in New Orleans sooner. Then, tell me why the Governor resisted handing over authority to the federal government at every turn.

    Tell me why, in the 3 years since 9-11, when the single most pressing issue of emergency coordination for disasters is clearly in the public's mind, didn't all of these issues get addressed before now by the government agency responsible for responding to disasters?

  20. #70
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    I would then ask why a president unconcerned about something as silly as world opinion when it came to Iraq, didn't show some stones and get things done?

    If those at the top knew that doctors were being held up, that emergency trailers were being held up, WHY THE DIDN'T THEY SEND THEM ANYWAYS?

    Worry about the legal nicities later and do it anyways.
    THAT GOES DIRECTLY TO THE POINT THAT BUSH WAS DAYS LATE PUTTING HIS FOOT UP SOMEBODY'S ASS.

    GRRRRR....

    Dodge dodge dodge...
    I don't question whether help got there fast. A trickle did. The massive flood needed to stem the humanitarian disaster was held back by beaurocratic bungling at all levels.

    GW ING BUSH should have gotten his ass back from vacation and realized damn quick that wasn't getting done, rather than "Good job Brownie".

  21. #71
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    I appreciate your patience.

    All anecdotal and Trent Lott is just wrong.

    Fallacy: Burden of Proof

    Includes: Appeal to Ignorance ("Ad Ignorantiam")
    Description of Burden of Proof

    Burden of Proof is a fallacy in which the burden of proof is placed on the wrong side. Another version occurs when a lack of evidence for side A is taken to be evidence for side B in cases in which the burden of proof actually rests on side B. A common name for this is an Appeal to Ignorance. This sort of reasoning typically has the following form:

    1. Claim X is presented by side A and the burden of proof actually rests on side B.
    2. Side B claims that X is false because there is no proof for X.

    In many situations, one side has the burden of proof resting on it. This side is obligated to provide evidence for its position.



    I h ave presented you with proof that supports the contention that the federal response was bungled. You have to do better than waving your hand and saying "bah". Present proof from first hand accounts that support your contention.

  22. #72
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    Yes, Hurricane Katrina revealed swearing, crying and stupefied public officials at all levels. Their initial paralysis may have endangered some lives.

    I agree with the author there...

  23. #73
    I don't really care... Yonivore's Avatar
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    Present proof from first hand accounts that support your contention.
    The relatively low death toll? Or, you could talk to all the living people that were saved by federal government employees from the various branches of the military. Or, you could look at these people who are ing about the federal response and say, "Hey! You're ing alive!"

  24. #74
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    The relatively low death toll? Or, you could talk to all the living people that were saved by federal government employees from the various branches of the military. Or, you could look at these people who are ing about the federal response and say, "Hey! You're ing alive!"

    The relatively low death toll?

    I guess relative to the Indonesian tsunami, our response looks golden.

    Try the unnessecarily high death toll.

    SPIN SPIN SPIN

  25. #75
    I don't really care... Yonivore's Avatar
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    The relatively low death toll?

    I guess relative to the Indonesian tsunami, our response looks golden.

    Try the unnessecarily high death toll.

    SPIN SPIN SPIN
    Well, they ordered 25,000 body bags, didn't they? Then, it was 10,000 dead...then in the thousands...now, we're under 1,000 for the entire affected area, about half in New Orleans. And, many of those were dead before Tuesday...when the levees broke and Mayor Nagin and Governor Blanco went high tenor and started covering their asses.

    So, tell me...who died unnecessarily and who's fault is it. Give me some specific cases...

    The nursing home? Nope, the Parish President lied his ass off on the timeline, those people were abandoned by the owners and the city. Deaths at the Convention center and Superdome? Who failed to adequately supply those facilities before they designated them as shelters? Deaths of people unable to evacuate? Who allowed the buses to drown?

    So, were there any deaths due to exposure, starvation, or dehydration? I saw the U.S. military slinging in supplies to all corners of New Orleans from day one. If people weren't immediately evacuated they were supplied.

    C'mon RG, let's have a specific death that can be attributed to the federal response. And, when (or if) you do -- compare that to the number of dead due to the incompetence of Louisiana State and local officials...because they will DWARF the number.

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