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I'm sure I didn't express myself correctly. For the record, I'd take David, all day and everyday over Ice. What I meant to say is Ice was more of a natural basketball player.
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Fwiw, drob used to kick Tim's ass in 1 on 1.
I'm sure I didn't express myself correctly. For the record, I'd take David, all day and everyday over Ice. What I meant to say is Ice was more of a natural basketball player.
This. Absolutely, positively accurate. I think it's only natural, though. As time passes, you end up with people that either just didn't experience those past events or you have people that have forgotten so much about it. It's unfortunate really, because the NBA of the 80s and 90s was so much fun to watch.
David and Hakeem were absolute freaks of nature physically, but David more so. David was bigger, faster and could jump higher. I'd say he was stronger, too. Physically speaking, prime David easily beats out Tim and it's not even close.
As far as basketball chops, you have to remember something that I think people tend to overlook, especially in this era of high octane offense - putting the ball in the hoop is only half of the game. When looking at the defensive side of the ball, David is far and away the better defender because of his athletic ability. The guy was a defensive MONSTER! He led the league in blocks AND rebounds. That's nothing to scoff at. I've never seen a player with the quickness of David when it came to getting to a shot to block it. His reaction time was second to none. He altered soooooo many shots. If we're talking team defense, I'd put them on even terms, simply because of Tim's basketball smarts, but make no mistake, David was also a super intelligent player.
Offensively, that should definitely go to Tim. Tim's footwork and creativity on the block were on a level like Hakeem and McHale. It's funny, but I never hear anyone mention McHale when talking about Tim's offensive game. I'd say that Tim, Hakeem and Kevin McHale are probably the most fundamentally sound offensive big men the NBA has ever seen. Kareem was great, but he didn't have the repertoire of these three. Anyway, offensively I'd give prime David his first step and his jump shot. He had a smoother jump shot than Duncan and much more arc. Free throws too, obviously. Tim's lack of arc on his shot has been the reason his free throw shooting has had so many rough patches over the years.
Personally, when it comes to their prime years I'd just flip a coin. I'd take either/or. Because of the team situation David had during his prime (and his 2 younger years lost to military service....can't forget that) we'll never really know how good he could have been. Tim has absolutely maximized his potential due to an almost perfect scenario regarding the Spurs organization during his career. We never really got to see the full potential of Big Dave.
Monty Williams told Anthony Davis that the Spurs had to black out the windows in the practice facility the first time Tim ever met David on the court because he was destroying him so badly 1-on-1.
Your source for David kicking his ass? Probably David himself, right?
Also, one thing for the 'D-Rob had less help crowd': in most cases, your stats go up when you have less help.
Look at T-Mac. His best season was in 03 when he had his least help. LeBron was much better in 09-10 with that ty Cavs team than when he was with Wade and Bosh (09 is the greatest Regular Season of the past few decades). Duncan's peak seasons were from 01-03, when he had the least help of his career.
People using Vinny and Avery as an excuse for David's underwhelming Playoff performances are misinformed. He had a limited half-court offensive game, which is what you need to dominate in the slowed-down tempo of the Playoffs. Tim had one, Shaq had one. They both raised their games. Garnett and Robinson didn't, and they usually came up short when it mattered most. Not because of teammates (LeBron and others have proved that they can performed better with less help), but because they weren't good enough to get it done as clear-cut #1 options that opposing defenses geared their schemes toward.
David has said multiple times that he needed someone like Duncan who you can run an offense through to win.
So you agree that David had less help.
Jordan needed Pippen, Kobe needed Shaq and Pau, Lebron needed Wade. David played with one "sane" Half-of-Famer, Tim Duncan and won. Timmy has played with several Hall-of-Famers, including his coach.People using Vinny and Avery as an excuse for David's underwhelming Playoff performances are misinformed. He had a limited half-court offensive game, which is what you need to dominate in the slowed-down tempo of the Playoffs. Tim had one, Shaq had one. They both raised their games. Garnett and Robinson didn't, and they usually came up short when it mattered most. Not because of teammates (LeBron and others have proved that they can performed better with less help), but because they weren't good enough to get it done as clear-cut #1 options that opposing defenses geared their schemes toward.
all great players need other stars to win Championships. No player is perfect. I wish David were in his prime now with Coach Pop. That would be scary.David has said multiple times that he needed someone like Duncan who you can run an offense through to win.
Gtfoh with your disrespect for drob.
I know that story, and of course Monty exaggerates. Tim earned Drob's respect, but that never happened again. DRob kicked his ass consistently.
David had to carry scrub teams basically his whole career to the playoffs. I mean talk about carrying a team., David constantly lead the team in points, rebs, assists,steals, blocks.
And btw Im not voting on this crap. We as fans were lucky to have both, for some here to start talking down on either one shows how spoiled and stupid this fanbase has become.
Yes, nobody would argue otherwise.
They needed those players to win, not to perform well. People, like yourself, use David's underwhelming teammates for his poor play (relative to his Regular Seasons) in the 94 and 96 Jazz series', his inability to beat a team than won 11 less games than him in 91, and a bunch of his awful end-of-season games. In most of these series he was being defended by bums like Tom Chambers, Oliver Miller, Jim Peterson, Andrew Lang. He wasn't going up against Shaq, Ewing, Zo, Daugherty in his prime. When he did go up against Hakeem he got slaughtered.Jordan needed Pippen, Kobe needed Shaq and Pau, Lebron needed Wade. David played with one "sane" Half-of-Famer, Tim Duncan and won. Timmy has played with several Hall-of-Famers, including his coach.
OTOH, when Duncan went up against LA in 02 with an ty, old, injured Robinson and a bunch of scrubs, he still managed to put up a 29/17/5 series, because his teammates didn't dictate his play, merely the outcome of the series (wins and losses).
That's my point: teammates help you win; they don't help you perform, and it's common knowledge that Duncan performed better in the Playoffs than Robinson. Not because of his help, but because of his ability.
One more thing: Duncan won in 03 without another All-Star. let alone another HoF-worthy player. Parker and Manu weren't effective players yet, and Robinson was on his last legs. So no, you don't always need HoFers to win. Duncan didn't, Hakeem didn't. And guess what? Both those guys were dominant low-post players who are better than the David Robinson's, the Kevin Garnett's, the Karl Malone's.
Some proof?
Also, David would say that because he is one of the most humble dudes to ever play pro sports. And I agree prime Admiral in the league right now would be unstoppable. It is pretty much agreed that barring injury Anthony Davis will be the best player in basketball in a couple years and David was so much better than AD, despite the similar skill set, it's not even funny. Also, it's interesting to note the people saying David didn't win because he didn't have a back to the basket game like TD and Dream, yet every big tries to play like D-Rob these days. That's the direction the league is moving and the back to the basket post players are becoming less important. Kinda like how saying a three point focussed team will never win a championship now seems silly.
If David would of signed with the Lakers instead of Spurs, he would have won a le or two with Magic.
think i'm with you because I don't want to talk Tim down, because he's one of my all-time favorites. Just can't help but imagine David in his prime with Pop and this generation of Spurs ex-Tim.
Looked at advanced stats for each player.
DROB's Per 26/23 Regualr Season/Playoffs. Tim 24/24
As Shaq always says "the others" need to step up big for teams to win championships. Elie, Elliott, JJ in 99. Kerr and Jackson 03. Horry hit a mammoth shot in 05. Today we have players like Green and Mills. modern Spurs fans hate when the 15th guy can't contribute. Admiral would have killed to have had the Red Rocket on any of his squads.
David is a once in a generation talent. To say tim had better coaching, teammates then david isnt in no way a knock on TD. Tim is also a once in a generation talent who would have succeeded anywhere he landed. However David played in a time where with prime barkely, malone and stockton, payton and kemp, hakeem, jordan and pippen, ewing, etc were all in their primes and a young shaq aswell. It would have been incredibly difficult for TD to carry any of Drobs teams to the finals with sean ****** who was a borerline all star as a 2nd option with avery and del negro who are no manu and tp, And if he were able to pull that off they would have jordan and pippen bulls waiting on them in the finals. TD is an incredible player and so was Drob, They both deserve our utmost respect. I agree with you though, Drob in todays league with pop and crew would be AD on steroids.
Last edited by bic50; 08-01-2015 at 05:00 PM.
Great post tbh
At anyone saying Robinson. The only thing he had on Duncan was physical tools, which like any of the physical specimen types (Chamberlain, O'Neal, James, to a lesser extent Howard), played a part in his historical statistical dominance, at least in the regular season.
That's not skill set, talent or basketball ability; that's the genetic lottery.
David Robinson
McHale is so overrated, he doesn't belong in any conversation with Duncan, Olajuwon, and Abdul-Jabbar. McHale and Parish were along for the ride, Bird was the Celtics.
Robinson was more athletic but Duncan is a better player
Im not gonna lie this post is the truth. I voted Duncan but I really wish Robinson would have won 1 or 2 on his own.
same for iceman.
Yeah 1990-1996 Robinson was really b@dass. Thought by most to be a top 3 player in the league at the time, but subsequently he was re-evaluated and downgraded. As you get older you realize that history is rewritten and shaped by narratives that often have little to do with what actually happened.
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