Is the bench better or worse than last year's?

[PrimeMinister]

So suddenly Mills is a point guard? That's news to me. The only thing Mills can do remotely better than Cory is shoot, sometimes. If Manu wasn't running the back up PG position, the second unit would be total chaos. Parker, looking like garbage the last two seasons and Ginobili being 37 doesn't bode well for a 2 point guard system. McCallum is a homeless man's CoJo and Jimmer is just homeless. There is no back up plan in place. This organization is putting a lot of stock into a Parker resurgence and a bunch of NBA unknowns. If it doesn't work out, The PATFO will be the one holding the bag, not the players.

How much hyperbole can you put in one comment? Ray had a great ending to last year, is young, and will only improve in this system. Mills as well can still improve, is a hard worker, and very coachable. If he can make an entry pass to LMA a few times a game we will be alright. Tony will have far less offensive burden this year, and we have so many playmakers from the non point position, that implying the FO is depending on tony is asinine.

[cjw]

LaMarcus is not only replacing Splitter and his minutes (20mpg), he's also replacing majority of Baynes' minutes as well (16 mpg)

This - you have to essentially factor in Lamarcus sopping up 15 bench minutes for it to be apples to apples. During the season, the addition of West will mean that there will not only be nights off for Duncan but Aldridge won't be ground down during the regular season.

In terms of playoffs, the rotation over 7 games averaged (removing the one OT to keep apples to apples) the following ... all of those end of bench minutes + Splitter now get sopped up by Aldridge. West takes minutes to take some of load off Duncan/Parker. All of this is assuming people are healthy.

Last Year			This Year
Duncan	35.0		Duncan	33.0
Leonard	35.0		Leonard	35.0
Parker	30.0		Parker	28.0
Green	28.4		Green	30.0
Diaw	27.6		Diaw	24.0
Ginobili	18.7		Ginobili	16.0
Splitter	17.6		Aldridge	35.0
Belinelli	16.6		West	15.0
Mills	15.3		Mills	18.0
Baynes	5.7		Other 6	6.0
Bonner	5.1
Joseph	3.3
Ayres	1.7

[SAGirl]

Much has been made of the Spurs' sacrificing depth so they could make a splash in free agency. Some analysts have argued that the Spurs lost two of their biggest strengths in depth and chemistry when they gutted the team to acquire Aldridge.

But is our bench really that much worse than last year's?

Position	2014-2015	2015-2016
PG	Patty Mills, Cory Joseph	Patty Mills, Ray McCallum
SG	Manu Ginobili, Marco Bellinelli	Manu Ginobili, Jonathan Simmons
SF	Kyle Anderson	Kyle Anderson
PF	Boris Diaw, Matt Bonner, Jeff Ayres	Boris Diaw, David West, Matt Bonner
C	Aron Baynes	Boban Marjanovic

From a position-by-position analysis, it seems that on paper:

• McCallum is a downgrade from CoJo.
• Simmons is a downgrade from Bellinelli.
• The fact that we no longer have Bellinelli means that we will likely have to give Anderson minutes at the 3, which is also a downgrade.
• West will likely take Baynes' minutes at the 5 and is an upgrade over him.
• Marjanovic is also slight upgrade over Baynes, and he'll be filling the Jeff Ayres / 6th big role.
• Matt Bonner might actually see an improvement since he spent much of last season with a injured elbow. Being healthy could allow him to regain the three point shooting ability that made him an asset in certain matchups.

In summary: Our backcourt has gotten worse since we downgraded from CoJo and Bellinelli to McCallum and Simmons. Exchanging a proven veteran in Bellinelli with an unproven sop re in Anderson is also a potential downgrade at the wing. However, we upgraded our frontcourt by replacing Baynes' minutes with West, adding Marjonovic (who is also better than Baynes) to play the sixth big role, and regaining a healthy Bonner.

So while some analysts have declared that the Spurs aren't as good as advertised because they gutted their depth, I'd argue that our bench overall is only slightly worse than last year's, and in some respects, even better.

Good analysis. I don't consider Boban an upgrade over Baynes for basically the same reason you don't consider Anderson an upgrade over Belinelli. Both Baynes and Belinelli were proven to work well within their role for the team. Boban and Anderson are new, but honestly potentially better. Belinelli was important for his shooting and the spacing he provided, but Anderson rebounds better and any of Simmons or Anderson will be better than Belinelli on defense TBH. Anderson has made progress on his defense and is capable of using his length to recover into plays that Beli was simply screened out of entirely. Simmons is a lot more athletic than either and capable of hustle plays. It may end up being a positive over Beli with either of these two guys, there is a question however, in that they are unproven.

Baynes got better as the season went along and got the bulk of the Splitter minutes TBH and the team did OK with him. West is a much better player than him though, so overall between West and Boban I think we will be ok.

If we dont have to start Bonner for about 20 games like last year or play him over 20 minutes at a time, due to Splitter's issues, that in itself will be an upgrade. We honestly missed Tiago, the real Tiago all of last year, he missed half the season, a third of it was on minutes restrictions, out of shape/conditioning and playing poorly. When he played well, he made a difference, but he could not be relied on. Splitter out, hopefully a healthy frontcourt means less minutes for Bonner.

Overall, I'd say we improved. The real question mark will be the Simmons/Anderson combo, and I think they will play well.

[Mikeanaro]

Maybe but overall Spurs are a better team now.

[ginobilized]

The lineup options with the new players looks very interesting, especially in small ball situations.
I can see the potential of
Mills, McCallum, Ginobili, Anderson and Diaw for crazy ball movement.....what other team has 3 elite passers on their second unit?
It's all speculation, of course. But it looks promising on the internet.

[JeffDuncan]

This - you have to essentially factor in Lamarcus sopping up 15 bench minutes for it to be apples to apples. During the season, the addition of West will mean that there will not only be nights off for Duncan but Aldridge won't be ground down during the regular season.

In terms of playoffs, the rotation over 7 games averaged (removing the one OT to keep apples to apples) the following ... all of those end of bench minutes + Splitter now get sopped up by Aldridge. West takes minutes to take some of load off Duncan/Parker. All of this is assuming people are healthy.

Last Year			This Year
Duncan	35.0		Duncan	33.0
Leonard	35.0		Leonard	35.0
Parker	30.0		Parker	28.0
Green	28.4		Green	30.0
Diaw	27.6		Diaw	24.0
Ginobili	18.7		Ginobili	16.0
Splitter	17.6		Aldridge	35.0
Belinelli	16.6		West	15.0
Mills	15.3		Mills	18.0
Baynes	5.7		Other 6	6.0
Bonner	5.1
Joseph	3.3
Ayres	1.7

You show 15 minutes for West, just thought I'd mention his average last year was 28.7 minutes per game. If the Spurs need to play him 30 minutes per game, with occasional rest, they can do so fearlessly. He's been playing 30 minutes or more per game for 10 years.

[Mr Bones]

The jury's still out on McCallum, but last season his numbers improved every month, with April being by far his best-- that's, at the very least, a good sign: http://espn.go.com/nba/player/gamelo...7/ray-mccallum

Joseph's D is better, but McCallum's ability and willingness to shoot threes is a big plus. Joseph's stats look more efficient, but he also played for a much better and more efficient team. I'd say that McCallum looked more willing to run a team by the end of last season, whereas confidence/tentativeness sometimes seemed like one of Joseph's issues...

[palangi]

Hey I liked CoJo and what he brought to the team and the improvements he made while a Spur. But damn some of you make him out to be some end all be all of the bench. And I guarantee that a lot of you that are sucking his balls right now are the same ones that used to rip the out of him too.

[SAGirl]

The jury's still out on McCallum, but last season his numbers improved every month, with April being by far his best-- that's, at the very least, a good sign: http://espn.go.com/nba/player/gamelo...7/ray-mccallum

Joseph's D is better, but McCallum's ability and willingness to shoot threes is a big plus. Joseph's stats look more efficient, but he also played for a much better and more efficient team. I'd say that McCallum looked more willing to run a team by the end of last season, whereas confidence/tentativeness sometimes seemed like one of Joseph's issues...

I agree with you on all this. If CoJo played on the Kings of last year, with all the upheaval and head coach changes they went through, and his role ever changing, I doubt he would have played as well as he did. I think McCallum will be ok for his role, and might be better in a better system than he was last year for the Kings.

[AFBlue]

So suddenly Mills is a point guard? That's news to me. The only thing Mills can do remotely better than Cory is shoot, sometimes. If Manu wasn't running the back up PG position, the second unit would be total chaos. Parker, looking like garbage the last two seasons and Ginobili being 37 doesn't bode well for a 2 point guard system. McCallum is a homeless man's CoJo and Jimmer is just homeless. There is no back up plan in place. This organization is putting a lot of stock into a Parker resurgence and a bunch of NBA unknowns. If it doesn't work out, The PATFO will be the one holding the bag, not the players.

I'm not as pessimistic as you, but I said as much in my initial take...that the backcourt is thinner and will put the onus on Parker, Mills and Ginobili to carry the load.

[Spurtacular]

RC said at Summer League he believes McCallum will run the offense better than CoJo. Whether that's just spin, or encouragement to McCallum I don't know but RC is not the type to say things just fill space in an interview. We'll see how it turns out.

He's probably speaking to RM dribbling less and the ball moving better. So, in that sense you could argue RM as being better. But just by skills, Cory is a bit better, imo.

[TD 21]

The rotation is not thinner. They entered last season with four proven, quality bench players and enter this season with four. The deep bench is more unproven, but probably has a higher upside.

My concern with the bench isn't the talent level, so much as it is the fit. West will fit in great offensively, but even though both he and Diaw are stout enough to mostly guard backup C's, neither can defensive rebound/protect the rim well enough to credibly play C. And Anderson is an awkward fit on both sides.

Extensive mixing and matching is no longer ideal either, with a starting lineup that should be a match-up proof, two way beast. It might eventually come to eliminating Anderson from the rotation, shoehorning Diaw into a combo forward (how much of a shooting/mobility difference is there between them?) and having at least one of Duncan or Aldridge play almost every meaningful minute.

[Nathan89]

Simmons makes our bench better this year.

[Uriel]

The rotation is not thinner. They entered last season with four proven, quality bench players and enter this season with four. The deep bench is more unproven, but probably has a higher upside.

My concern with the bench isn't the talent level, so much as it is the fit. West will fit in great offensively, but even though both he and Diaw are stout enough to mostly guard backup C's, neither can defensive rebound/protect the rim well enough to credibly play C. And Anderson is an awkward fit on both sides.

Extensive mixing and matching is no longer ideal either, with a starting lineup that should be a match-up proof, two way beast. It might eventually come to eliminating Anderson from the rotation, shoehorning Diaw into a combo forward (how much of a shooting/mobility difference is there between them?) and having at least one of Duncan or Aldridge play almost every meaningful minute.

Do you think Boban could earn a spot in the rotation as a true C?

[Spurtacular]

Do you think Boban could earn a spot in the rotation as a true C?

Based on Timmy taking 20 games off alone, I imagine the Spurs want Boban to play some significant minutes.

[Spurs 4 The Win]

Simmons makes our bench better this year.

Simmons is unproven

lol socialist gt

[SAGirl]

The rotation is not thinner. They entered last season with four proven, quality bench players and enter this season with four. The deep bench is more unproven, but probably has a higher upside.

My concern with the bench isn't the talent level, so much as it is the fit. West will fit in great offensively, but even though both he and Diaw are stout enough to mostly guard backup C's, neither can defensive rebound/protect the rim well enough to credibly play C. And Anderson is an awkward fit on both sides.

Extensive mixing and matching is no longer ideal either, with a starting lineup that should be a match-up proof, two way beast. It might eventually come to eliminating Anderson from the rotation, shoehorning Diaw into a combo forward (how much of a shooting/mobility difference is there between them?) and having at least one of Duncan or Aldridge play almost every meaningful minute.

I think only Anderson will eliminate himself out. He will get chances to prove himself and also will be coached to improve. Spurs did not get a true backup SF other than him. Simmons can defend but his game and size is more of a SG. He is closer to 6'4 barefoot than 6'5 and does not have lengthy arms. Spurs played him in SL and in the D'league as a SG and sometimes as a PG (when Cotton was picked up by the Jazz), never as a SF. That was revealing to me. If the Spurs picked up a backup SF it would have to be a veteran that would not mind losing minutes to Anderson. If he breaks out like the Spurs hope he will, that vet will not play. It is one of the main reasons I think the Spurs were unable to pick up a backup SF in the vet bargain bin market.

Nobody wants to look at that aspect, but Anderson has improved and played really well. Rookies are known to struggle in their first year just in a general sense, not just him. Its likely he will be much better this year, and if he is, whoever else is in the 5th or a 6th wing has to be okay with that. Simmons is versatile and you can play him together with Anderson when Manu sits which makes it an even better fit in this roster. But make no mistake, Anderson will play.

[steeledl]

Simmons is unproven

lol socialist gt

only gots doubt Simmons , sucker .

[cjw]

You show 15 minutes for West, just thought I'd mention his average last year was 28.7 minutes per game. If the Spurs need to play him 30 minutes per game, with occasional rest, they can do so fearlessly. He's been playing 30 minutes or more per game for 10 years.

I was talking playoffs. Assumption is he plays well in excess of 15 during the season. Issue is if Duncan and Aldridge combine for 35+33=68, you only have 28 minutes to split between Diaw and West unless Diaw plays the 3 against second units with a guy you can hide him on D.

[szkorhetz]

Why didn't we sign Mbah Moute? He is a nice 3&D player, long, athletic and can play 3 positions. He would be perfect in the second unit and was agreed to the vet min in Sacramento before they vetoed the signing..

[timtonymanu]

I'm not even going to hype up McCallum or other 3rd stringers that other Spurs fans seem to be overrating already.

But I do think our bench has potential to be even better than last season, no question.

Manu, healthy Patty, Diaw, West >>> Manu, injured Patty, Diaw, Baynes

If Simmons or Anderson turn out to be anything special, it shouldn't be hard for them to match Beli's production or even be better than him.

[timtonymanu]

Lol. gots thinking scruballum is better than cojo.

He and Fredette have been vastly overrated on here.

a 30 page thread for Jimmer

[AFBlue]

Why didn't we sign Mbah Moute? He is a nice 3&D player, long, athletic and can play 3 positions. He would be perfect in the second unit and was agreed to the vet min in Sacramento before they vetoed the signing..

No. His career 3P% is sub 30% and last year was the first time he even averaged more than a single attempt per game. His range has always been limited to 18ft since the day he came into the league. That doesn't mean he wouldn't be of value defensively, but to slap a "3&D" label on him would be wrong tbqh.

[Obstructed_View]

What is cojo better at than McCallum?

Defense.

End of list.

[TD 21]

Do you think Boban could earn a spot in the rotation as a true C?

Not with four top three caliber bigs ahead of him.

If the West-Diaw combination's lack of rim protection/defensive rebounding becomes a major issue, as I said, Pop would probably work the rotation so that at least one of Duncan or Aldridge played almost every meaningful minute, especially for the games that matter most.

I think only Anderson will eliminate himself out. He will get chances to prove himself and also will be coached to improve. Spurs did not get a true backup SF other than him. Simmons can defend but his game and size is more of a SG. He is closer to 6'4 barefoot than 6'5 and does not have lengthy arms. Spurs played him in SL and in the D'league as a SG and sometimes as a PG (when Cotton was picked up by the Jazz), never as a SF. That was revealing to me. If the Spurs picked up a backup SF it would have to be a veteran that would not mind losing minutes to Anderson. If he breaks out like the Spurs hope he will, that vet will not play. It is one of the main reasons I think the Spurs were unable to pick up a backup SF in the vet bargain bin market.

Nobody wants to look at that aspect, but Anderson has improved and played really well. Rookies are known to struggle in their first year just in a general sense, not just him. Its likely he will be much better this year, and if he is, whoever else is in the 5th or a 6th wing has to be okay with that. Simmons is versatile and you can play him together with Anderson when Manu sits which makes it an even better fit in this roster. But make no mistake, Anderson will play.

Anderson will get a chance early, but if he's not ready, good enough or doesn't fit well enough, the eventual move (Simmons could get a look beforehand; he's definitely not an SF, but if Belinelli and Ginobili can get away with defending it in certain match-ups, he should be able to, too) might be to shoehorn Diaw into being a combo forward, since it could kill two birds with one stone.

I doubt them not picking up a veteran SF was because those players were/are unwilling; it's more than likely because they don't like any enough to give them a guaranteed contract. Plus, they want to give Anderson and maybe even Simmons a look before they go shopping in the bargain bin. The types of names presumably under consideration have to be amendable to not playing, since most will be lucky to get another job in the league, let alone on a contender.