Reply With Quote
He comes across to me as someone who reads the law for what it is. He doesn't push HIS views, he pushes his interpretation of the law.
Thats just fine with me.
He comes across to me as someone who reads the law for what it is. He doesn't push HIS views, he pushes his interpretation of the law.
Thats just fine with me.
[QUOTE=jochhejaam]
I think yonivore correctly pointed out that there is a big difference between supporting murder (10 commandment no-no) and supporting Capital punishment. Scripture says; Put your sword back in its place "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword". You reap what you sow, if you don't want to be executed don't execute.
That's bull ...you can't quote a commandment to back up your point and then turn around and ignore it when it doesn't...
The commandment says...thou shalt not kill...
With no qualifiers and no exceptions. Period.
Absolutely and totally false...You think that people who were warned and able to flee Katrina and ended up perishing because of their lack of action deserved to die but you don't think Capital punishment is warranted for someone who murdered ?
What's the rationale behind that Whottt?
Whottt's philosphy
Inaction = deserved to die.
Murder = doesn't deserve to die.
I support the death penalty.
That kinda ed you up now didn't it?
Pro War
Pro Death Penalty
Pro Abortion
At least I am consistent....and abortion is probably the one I have the toughest stance on....but I'd consider it less of an act of murder than either of the other two.
No, Jesus was resurrected as the same embodiment that was crucified. Resurrection and Reincarnation are not similar. Reincarnation is the rebirth of a soul in a new human body, resurrection is the same body brought back to life.
Pssst...he's supposed to be coming back you know....
Actually, translated from the original Greek text the word is "murder" not "kill." In fact, most current revisions of the bible have made the correction.
Yep; but, not reincarnated...as himself. You can't use the Messiah as an example of reincarnation. He was fully man and fully God...he can do as he likes.
Original Greek Text?
You mean Hebrew right?
They also don't say anything about abortion...
And that still leaves you attempting to justify declaring war upong those who had never attacked you...IE, Iraq, Korea, Vietnam.
Have innocents been killed in this war?
Then that is murder...
And why can't I? Is there a commandment that says thou shalt not re-incarnate?Yep; but, not reincarnated...as himself. You can't use the Messiah as an example of reincarnation. He was fully man and fully God...he can do as he likes.
I think the one thing made clear in the bible is that God can do whatever he wants with your soul...He put the souls he wanted born where he wanted them and I highly doubt that he would have said it all if one of them was a miscarriage...
You're right. The new testament is mostly translated from Greek. The Old Testament, Hebrew.
No, but the Bible talks about God knowing us from the time He forms us in the womb.
I'm talking about abortion and capital murder. War is another subject. And, yes, if it's not legitimate, war would be wrong.
Yes...but, was that intentional? [see murder defined]Have innocents been killed in this war?
Not necessarily.
Yeah, pretty much. I believe there's a passage that says you've only got one life.
Now, you're presuming for God. Can't say you're wrong, I just prefer to err on the side of life. You can't undo an abortion.
I think you're pretty safe, seeing as it would be difficult for you to have an abortion.Can't say you're wrong, I just prefer to err on the side of life. You can't undo an abortion.
Commandment # 3
Thou shall not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain
I don't know what it is but have you no morals?
[QUOTE]There's the whole rest of the Bible wrapped around the Commandments, if you don't understand it in it's entirety then it's understandable that you view the commandment at face value only.
That's nonsense, if that were the case even self defense with lethal force being necessary would be breaking the commandment. David killed Goliath, Samson, being strengthed by God brought down the house on the Phillistines, the Bible is replete with history of justifiable killing.The commandment says...thou shalt not kill...
With no qualifiers and no exceptions. Period.
And yes, you supporting the death penalty KO'd me trying to point out hypocrisy in your philosophy. I incorrectly thought you calling out yonivore for his pro death penalty stance meant you were against it.
I should have known better.
The bible talks about a lot of things...what it doesn't talk about however, is abortion being murder...and any claim that it does is strictly interpretation.
Saddam never declared war on us...We declared war on him.I'm talking about abortion and capital murder. War is another subject. And, yes, if it's not legitimate, war would be wrong.
Yes...but, was that intentional? [see murder defined]
Even if you are aborted? I doubt it.Yeah, pretty much. I believe there's a passage that says you've only got one life.
Unless they're actually out of the womb and alive...then you err on the side of death...with a big oops...my bad.Now, you're presuming for God. Can't say you're wrong, I just prefer to err on the side of life.
That's very true...since death is suppose to be the gateway to eternal life for the righteous...aren't you just saving that fetus a lot of BS? Especially if it's being born to those who won't care for it?You can't undo an abortion.
I mean what...the fetus doesn't get into heaven if someone aborts it?
[QUOTE=jochhejaam]
There's the whole rest of the Bible wrapped around the Commandments, if you don't understand it in it's entirety then it's understandable that you view the commandment at face value only.
Oh I understand...just like I understand you can find a quote to back up just about any point you want to make...
But the 10 commandments are the explicit word of god...
But wait...I thought Jesus said turn the other cheek?That's nonsense, if that were the case even self defense with lethal force being necessary would be breaking the commandment. David killed Goliath, Samson, being strengthed by God brought down the house on the Phillistines, the Bible is replete with history of justifiable killing.
Did he defend himself against those who crucified him?
No..I am just pointing out the contradictory nature of the anti-abortion argument.And yes, you supporting the death penalty KO'd me trying to point out hypocrisy in your philosophy. I incorrectly thought you calling out yonivore for his pro death penalty stance meant you were against it.
I should have known better.
Basically you pick and choose the parts of the bible that suits your view...Kinda like Usama does with the Koran.
I mean Jesus turned the other cheek...he didn't defend himself...he celebrated that he was going to his father's kingdom.
Problem is whott. That the bible was written in Hebrew and not English. In the original translation it is "thou shall not murder".
Jesus was here to do a different task. Jesus was not a king and he was not a governor. Paul in the book of Romans later states that the state has the right to carry the sword. You need to interpret the bible in its entirety.
[QUOTE]I don't have exclusive referrencing rights. Help yourself.
Correct, and if you had a thorough understanding of the Bible you would be able to easily reconcile his commandments with what may appear to be contradictions.But the 10 commandments are the explicit word of god...
The correct translation of "thou shalt not kill" is found in many translations;
"You shall not murder. (WEB)
Do not put anyone to death without cause. (BBE)
Thou shalt not murder. (JPS)
Thou dost not murder. (YLT)
You shall not murder. (NIV)
Definition of Murder; (MW) The crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice aforethought.
Makes all the difference whottt.
He could have.But wait...I thought Jesus said turn the other cheek? Did he defend himself against those who crucified him
Matt: 26 Then the men stepped forward, seized Jesus and arrested him. 51 With that, one of Jesus' companions reached for his sword, drew it out and struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his ear.
52 "Put your sword back in its place," Jesus said to him, "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword.
53 Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels? (legion = 1,000)
But this is why he didn't.
54 But how then would the Scriptures be fulfilled that say it must happen in this way?"
Had Christ been selfish those who came to crucify him would have been toast. But he chose to sacrifice his life for ours and in doing so become a testator for all of mankind.
I post the Scriptures that are relevant to the discussion, why would I do otherwise?Basically you pick and choose the parts of the bible that suits your view
Already been discussed...as has the double standard of people applying it to somethings and not to others.
Last edited by whottt; 09-15-2005 at 09:27 PM.
Is Paul god?
You mean interpret...
It also has a broad definition of murder when translated from the original Hebrew...murder does not just mean taking a life..if you are talking the original interpretation.The correct translation of "thou shalt not kill" is found in many translations;
"You shall not murder. (WEB)
Do not put anyone to death without cause. (BBE)
Thou shalt not murder. (JPS)
Thou dost not murder. (YLT)
You shall not murder. (NIV)
Definition of Murder; (MW) The crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice aforethought.
Makes all the difference whottt.
And that last example is an ambiguous one...since abortion is not illegal it is therefore not unlawful..so you see....you are leaving the right and the wrong of it up to man, to justify a stance on one issue, and ignoring it on others...not using the Commandments. If that is your rationale then nothing sets abortion apart from any other nationalistic form of killing. And due to other factors abortion is probably less of an act of killing.
And what's the point you are trying to make? It looks to me like he is condemning killing of any kind...He could have.
Matt: 26 Then the men stepped forward, seized Jesus and arrested him. 51 With that, one of Jesus' companions reached for his sword, drew it out and struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his ear.
52 "Put your sword back in its place," Jesus said to him, "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword.
53 Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels? (legion = 1,000)
And why must it have happened that way?But this is why he didn't.
54 But how then would the Scriptures be fulfilled that say it must happen in this way?"
And what point was he trying to make by doing that?Had Christ been selfish those who came to crucify him would have been toast. But he chose to sacrifice his life for ours and in doing so become a testator for all of mankind.
I don't think it was...fry someones ass if they commit murder.
Why not post the ones concerning abortion?I post the Scriptures that are relevant to the discussion, why would I do otherwise?
Preferabily the ones that aren't somehow related to the births of messiahs and prophets...
Curious to me that the staunch anti-choice (per abortion) faction in this debate stands by the mantra that you can't read the Ten Commandments literally and that they must be understood in the context of an interpretation of God's Word. At the same time, the heart of the anti-choice movement is a fundamental belief that the Cons ution (written not by an infalliable God, but by inherently falliable men) should only be read literally and should not be subject to any interpretation beyond its text -- particularly the interpretations offered by "liberal" judges.
It's an interesting inconsistency to me.
[QUOTE]No, I meant reconcile.
I'm talking about the scholarly accurate translation. And this response to kill being translated to murder utterly fails to address the point that was being made. Way to dance around an issue where you can't come up with points valid enough to support your reasoning.It also has a broad definition of murder when translated from the original Hebrew...murder does not just mean taking a life..if you are talking the original interpretation.
The Bible is clear on the difference between murder and punishment for commiting murder so man is correctly following scripture in implementing CP.And that last example is an ambiguous one...since abortion is not illegal it is therefore not unlawful..so you see....you are leaving the right and the wrong of it up to man, to justify a stance on one issue, and ignoring it on others...not using the Commandments. If that is your rationale then nothing sets abortion apart from any other nationalistic form of killing. And due to other factors abortion is probably less of an act of killing.
That being said your comments about abortion are null and void.
As stated before, you don't have a good grasp of the scripture in it's entirety. David/Goliath, Samson/Phillistines, Joshua at Jericho etc.And what's the point you are trying to make? It looks to me like he is condemning killing of any kind...
Just as Christ said, to fulfill scripture.And why must it have happened that way?
Scripture tells us 'not to fear him that can destroy the body but him (God) who can destroy both the body and soul. All that are unrepentant of their sins have rejected God and receive of their own free will eternity in .And what point was he trying to make by doing that?
I don't think it was...fry someones ass if they commit murder.
All that repent of their sins, including murderers, receive the gift of eternity in heaven.
I love how the all powerful god puts the responsibility in the hands of people. I guess it is people that are actually the all powerful ones.
internal strife cripples me deciding who comes correct between whottt and jochchheejjajaaam
but I would have to say whottt
Actually, I'm with joch.
You argue that God has too much control (omnipotence inhibiting free will) and you argue that man has too much control.
No, I argue about the contradictions within your belief structure that you rationalize away.
This is another one. You say God is all powerfull but that he puts the decision in the persons hands to choose whether or not they are saved. Therefore, if the person is damned to , it is not something God did, but the person did.
However, God is the one who is saving people. You don't say those people saved themselves. And if god really is putting the choice in peoples hands, then he really has no power and is not all powerful
Confusing? yeah your religion is confusing.
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Posting Permissions
