Spurs Game Grades - Game #15 Mavs @ Spurs -- 11/25/15

[rasuo214]

Pop played Timmy almost 40 mpg early in his career. So Kawhi playing an occasional 40 minute game isn't a huge deal.

[SAGirl]

Cry Havoc I cannot speak for SAGirl but I don't believe either one of us intends to "minimize" the career of one of the best coaches in the history of the NBA. I believe we are both huge admirers of Pop. Nor was it our intent to review/evaluate his entire career. You have done a very admirable job of stating many of the highlights, including many that you rightly point out are historic. I (and SAGirl) took issue with your grade for Pop in a single game, and we were discussing some specific episodes in his career.

Very much this, too. We are talking about a specific game and not diminishing our coach's entire career.

I deviated from the main subject a bit to mention that Pop is a coach that tends to bring guys along slowly. It's his way of doing things and it might not be the only way, its just the style he has.

[sasaint]

I very much respect your dissenting opinion. You and I just have different views of the same game. I expected more adjustments to what Pop did, but we won the game and what Pop did was enough. It was a close one though against an injured, older, less talented team, that was on the road in a B2B, and had the result been different (and it could have gone either way) you would have to rethink whether Manu 29 minutes was wise, and whether Pop should not have given Kyle and Ray a run, since the bench struggled mightily. They are both young at this point but capable of quality play in a few minutes. Ray played starter minutes with the Kings for a while, and Kyle played starter minutes against a similar (arguable better than this) Mavs team during December 2014, with a horribly devastated Spurs team that only played 8 players that game. Your headline star might have been Cojo and Bobo that game. Kyle might be able to handle more than you think. Need I remind you, Kyle gave us quality minutes against the Suns and Grizzlies just a few nights ago. We are not talking about his play against the Sixers. You just don't know unless you give guys a chance. They might have been better than a struggling Patty/Manu for a few minutes.

Luckily we do have the stars and Kawhi at a young age to actually right the ship in crunch time. Very much a superstar won game.

My criticism of Pop is not out of the realm of some of the criticism directed at players on here. He does have his quirks and has had his coaching blunders. He says he doesn't know it all, and actually likes assistants that challenge his opinions. I still love the coach and admire him. Sometimes he does things that are headsratching, but he will live with the consequences. Here Pop was living and dying with the stars, and it was the right thing for this game I guess, but it easily could have gone the other way. Had he subbed in Kyle/Ray and they sucked some might have said that cost us the game. Pop always does things for a reason. Turns out he was going to rest Manu, so he could afford Manu 29 minutes.

Even if Manu was going to get a rest, why play him so much if he is off? The refusal to play Kyle and/or Ray when Manu AND Danny AND Patty are off is what causes concern. As you pointed out, Ray started games in this league and was highly touted by RC when we got him from Sactown; yet we have barely seen him. Conclusion: he is not very useful, which is quite troublesome. As you also pointed out, Kyle has started for us, yet Pop preferred a totally spent/ineffectual Manu. Conclusion: Kyle is not very useful. If those are, indeed, Pop's conclusions we seem to be in pretty big trouble. We will be superstar-dependent against every mid-tier team in the league. Maybe that's okay, but it isn't what I expected coming into the season, and I hope we can hold up through a championship run with that approach.

[SAGirl]

Even if Manu was going to get a rest, why play him so much if he is off? The refusal to play Kyle and/or Ray when Manu AND Danny AND Patty are off is what causes concern. As you pointed out, Ray started games in this league and was highly touted by RC when we got him from Sactown; yet we have barely seen him. Conclusion: he is not very useful, which is quite troublesome. As you also pointed out, Kyle has started for us, yet Pop preferred a totally spent/ineffectual Manu. Conclusion: Kyle is not very useful. If those are, indeed, Pop's conclusions we seem to be in pretty big trouble. We will be superstar-dependent against every mid-tier team in the league. Maybe that's okay, but it isn't what I expected coming into the season, and I hope we can hold up through a championship run with that approach.

You are right about this. In the game thread I expressed in a spur of the moment reaction, that I had started to change my view on the depth of our team and agreeing with TD 21, with whom I have been arguing on and off about this point specifically, since he's been saying we are weak in the wing, and I thought we had enough depth to weather the season.

But seeing Pop stick to his short rotation this game, much as he has done in other games against an admittedly weak schedule was a headscratcher. It is funny that Kyle gave quality play against two playoff teams in the Suns and Grizzlies, and barely got a chance against the Mavs. You would think that you kind of want the young guy to keep a rhythm going and build his confidence, but no. Against the Mavs, he barely got a chance, and Ray is not even getting time on the court.

It did make me wonder whether we are as solid as I thought we were... then I /smh because anyone we would bring midseason would not play unless it was Belinelli or Neal, or someone Pop already knew and trusted.

[Cry Havoc]

Cry Havoc I cannot speak for SAGirl but I don't believe either one of us intends to "minimize" the career of one of the best coaches in the history of the NBA. I believe we are both huge admirers of Pop. Nor was it our intent to review/evaluate his entire career. You have done a very admirable job of stating many of the highlights, including many that you rightly point out are historic. I (and SAGirl) took issue with your grade for Pop in a single game, and we were discussing some specific episodes in his career.

As for Kawhi, you are right that an occasional 40-minute game isn't going to kill the guy. But those games are more than merely occasional if he plays them against every middle-tier team in the league. The same for Manu. The real bottom line is simply this: I thought we had a roster, top-to-bottom, that inspired more confidence in Pop than he showed against the Mavs. The fact that he felt the need to ride Kawhi and, more especially Manu when his tank was clearly empty, is what causes the concern. The reliance upon those two (and I could add Patty, even though he didn't play an inordinate number of minutes) is only a symptom. It is the underlying malady that concerns me the most. If Danny and Patty get it together, the malady is not as dire. But if they don't, and Pop cannot/refuses to use guys behind them, then the malady seems terminal.

Number two seed seems pretty critical to our championship chances this year. But getting a number two seed with a team that has spent itself because of very short rotations doesn't make our championship chances very good, either. I think we all hope that Danny and Patty break out of their doldrums, and additionally that Kyle and/or Ray and/or Simmons reaches a point where Pop can rely on them for some good minutes.

It's a little strange to claim you aren't attempting to make light of Pop's career, when two responses ago it was being discussed how poorly Pop handled Boris Diaw and that he couldn't immediately translate a rookie Manu into an all-star. Those are really bizarre critiques to level at a coach when you claim to "only be speaking about the grades for last game".

Leonard is averaging just under 36 minutes per game for November. That is still within a realistic amount of minutes for a player his age without causing any kind of severe wear and tear. In a 48 minute game that means Kawhi is resting for an entire quarter of the game, plus a lot more than that when you consider timeouts and commercial breaks. If Pop starts habitually playing him for 40 minutes against every team, we'll revisit this discussion, but it definitely feels like you're jumping the gun here.

Even if Manu was going to get a rest, why play him so much if he is off? The refusal to play Kyle and/or Ray when Manu AND Danny AND Patty are off is what causes concern. As you pointed out, Ray started games in this league and was highly touted by RC when we got him from Sactown; yet we have barely seen him. Conclusion: he is not very useful, which is quite troublesome. As you also pointed out, Kyle has started for us, yet Pop preferred a totally spent/ineffectual Manu. Conclusion: Kyle is not very useful. If those are, indeed, Pop's conclusions we seem to be in pretty big trouble. We will be superstar-dependent against every mid-tier team in the league. Maybe that's okay, but it isn't what I expected coming into the season, and I hope we can hold up through a championship run with that approach.

Well, first of all, if you consider that we have Parker, Green, Kawhi, LMA, Tim, Patty, Manu, Diaw, and West, at best that means that Kyle is our 10th man. I don't know if you're making the argument that the Spurs have 9 superstars on their team, but if you are, I don't think we have much to worry about in the playoffs. Either way, rotations are going to shorten in the playoffs, it's very natural. Unless the Spurs make a big trade, I don't see SloMo getting a lot of burn in crunch times of playoff games. He'll get out there in blowouts or for spot minutes against specific matchups. Would I like to see him get more burn? Sure. But probably against a lesser coach than Carlisle.

My bet is that Anderson & the longer end of the bench will get a decent share of minutes tonight.

[sasaint]

You are right about this. In the game thread I expressed in a spur of the moment reaction, that I had started to change my view on the depth of our team and agreeing with TD 21, with whom I have been arguing on and off about this point specifically, since he's been saying we are weak in the wing, and I thought we had enough depth to weather the season.

But seeing Pop stick to his short rotation this game, much as he has done in other games against an admittedly weak schedule was a headscratcher. It is funny that Kyle gave quality play against two playoff teams in the Suns and Grizzlies, and barely got a chance against the Mavs. You would think that you kind of want the young guy to keep a rhythm going and build his confidence, but no. Against the Mavs, he barely got a chance, and Ray is not even getting time on the court.

It did make me wonder whether we are as solid as I thought we were... then I /smh because anyone we would bring midseason would not play unless it was Belinelli or Neal, or someone Pop already knew and trusted.

Kyle has even been taking minutes from Butler recently, so I thought his stock was on a gradual rise. But all I can conclude from Ray's lack of PT is that he is a total bust. Consequently, we have a classic catch-22. Pop doesn't have confidence in the guys on the deep bench currently on the roster, but he certainly wouldn't have confidence in anybody we could bring in at mid-season. We fans just need to pray that the first two units remain healthy for the entire season, and that Danny and Patty revert to form. (Actual Kyle is on the second unit! So make that, "pray that the top 9 remain healthy...")

[sasaint]

It's a little strange to claim you aren't attempting to make light of Pop's career, when two responses ago it was being discussed how poorly Pop handled Boris Diaw and that he couldn't immediately translate a rookie Manu into an all-star.

If Pop starts habitually playing him for 40 minutes against every team, we'll revisit this discussion, but it definitely feels like you're jumping the gun.

My bet is that Anderson & the longer end of the bench will get a decent share of minutes tonight.

As for your first comment above, you should review who said what; whether it was I or SAGirl. But if I were you I still wouldn't construe a couple of anecdotes, even if related critically, as some indictment of Pop's career. That is certainly not how I construed them. But I do not believe even a hall-of-fame coach is perfect or beyond questioning/criticism. I have stated in this forum that Pop sees a lot more of his players than I ever will and is in a far better position to evaluate them. In fact, my own concern is borne precisely out of my belief in Pop and his judgment: if he doesn't trust guys 10-14 I am concerned.

As for your second comment above, I suggest that you re-read my comments, paying attention to a particular, big word, "if", which you eloquently employed above.

As for your final comment above, I hope you are right (I expect it, too.) I hope somebody beyond the top 9 can begin to gain Pop's confidence, starting tonight.

I don't think anybody is attacking Pop. He doesn't need you to defend him here. Please keep writing your game grades, because whatever your opinion, you express it very intelligently. I greatly value that. I hope to intelligently articulate my disagreement when I do disagree with your opinions. I think Pop missed opportunities against the Mavs. if some of the points of criticism I see were not, in fact, missed opportunities then some of them are evidence that our bench is unreliable, at least in Pop's opinion, which is the only one that matters in the final analysis. That is a big concern IMHO.

[SAGirl]

It's a little strange to claim you aren't attempting to make light of Pop's career, when two responses ago it was being discussed how poorly Pop handled Boris Diaw and that he couldn't immediately translate a rookie Manu into an all-star. Those are really bizarre critiques to level at a coach when you claim to "only be speaking about the grades for last game".

This was indeed me, and I stated above, I deviated on the subject of the thread a whole lot bc as I was chatting with sasaint, belly full of turkey and in a merry mood, I did share my general view, that Pop is a coach that just in general brings everyone along slowly, and that much is made by everyone that it is so difficult for players to adapt to the system or what not, when my personal opinion is just that it is the opposite. Pop likes to evaluate players, see what they do naturally (recently seen with Lamarcus but also a good deal with kawhi), and then takes his time integrating them into the system. You can't argue with the results he has had over the years, and I pointed this out above too, but he is very particular about his process, and not all coaches have the luxury he has had in bringing guys along slowly.

Obviously a shooter is easy to fit in, but with guys who are unorthodox and are special in their own ways, are less so, and yet guys like that are more important than perhaps everyone else in whether your system works. Anyways, not going to repeat it, since its above, but its my opinion and there is nothing wrong with that.

[Pauleta14]

Thanks so much for the grades!

Almost looks like the old ST is back!

Almost...^^