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OP has a point tbh
You think Kawhi is a tier below scoring wise than Lebron and Curry?
Kawhi doesn't need to contribute the same amount offensively as those two nor does Pop play a system that relies on one scorer.
Beyond that, Kawhi is a more complete scorer than Curry or Lebron. Curry is taking and making an insane amount of threes and can finish at the rim, but Curry isn't going to post anyone up. Kawhi can also finish at the rim and hit threes at a slightly better percentage than Curry. Lebron is a great post player and finisher but his three ball has abandoned him.
Curry's biggest advantage are the teammates that can all hit shots. Even Speights is hitting threes (though not so much lately). When Curry breaks a double team he has Klay, Barnes, Draymond, and a rolling Bogut. Danny Green, Patty Mills, Parker, basically anyone not named Aldridge has been wildly inconsistent this year shooting wise.
To say Kawhi is a tier below Lebron and Curry is overstating it.
OP has a point tbh
I kinda disagree... if he is the best 2-way player he is the best player period... he is or he is not. I don't like this 2 way player it's like saying he is good at everything but elite at nothing which is dumb.
you're one of those, got it
Well that's what you get for saying .
I would say he's definitely an elite defender but is he an elite scorer that's tough but I will say no. He's a pretty good scorer now and is efficient but he's not in the same realm as Durant, prime Lebron, prime Wade. Kawhi has the best combo of offense and defense of any player in the league and that's why he's referred constantly as a great two way player. I would rate Kawhi's defense 10, and his scoring an 8. You'll have guys like Durant and Curry who are 10 on offense, but are like a 6 on defense. I feel Durant when he wants to be can be an 8 on defense while Curry can't go beyond being a 6 on defense. Lebron this year has been a 9 on offense and a 7 on defense. IF you rank any other stars by this method you will see Kawhi come's out overall the best.
You're doing great at the internet today, thumbs up!
What part of Kawhi's game precludes him from being considered an elite scorer? People are coming on and saying Kawhi just isn't a great scorer without any real analysis.
By your post then Kawhi is a 10+8 player Curry a 6+10 player so you are saying Kawhi > Curry ?
Basically, except O > D as has been explained in this thread, so Curry gets the nod. Also because giving Kawhi a 8 on offense is already quite generous.
Come on, you're making a ludicrous claim that Kawhi should be compared offensively to one guy who is having maybe the best offensive season of all time, and another guy who his a 4x NBA MVP with > 27ppg career average. You've got to back it up with something a bit more convincing than "a SF can post up while a PG can't" and "he can shoot the 3 better than another SF who's never been known for shooting the 3".
Acting like Curry's offense and Kawhi's defense are a wash (or even close to it) is pretty ridiculous. The whole "Kawhi's defense is a 10 and Curry's offense is a 10" is a terrible argument. Curry has a good argument for having the best offensive season ever. I don't think anyone here would argue that Kawhi is having one of the best defensive seasons ever and is on the same level as prime Hakeem/Russell/Duncan/Ben Wallace/etc when it comes to defensive impact.
http://bkref.com/tiny/5BPH3
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...pm_season.html (Curry right now is sitting at 12.4...so he's on pace to be #1 by a good margin)
Also, have others have said, Kawhi needs to prove he can dominate for an entire playoff run. I think he can do it, but he needs to show it. Last year he started off great and then fizzled out for the last few games of the series. In 2014 he had his moments but again, it's about proving he can do it night in and night out. LeBron has proven it time and time again, and Curry proved it last year.
It's not a slight to put a 25 year-old Kawhi a little behind Curry/LeBron. It's actually a of a compliment. I don't see why some people are acting like it's disrespectful to refer to Kawhi as the best 2-way player in the league.
This is a thoughtful response, thank you.
Look, I agree Curry has a bigger impact on offense. But saying Kawhi is a tier below Lebron (especially 2016 Lebron) and Curry isn't true to me. Kawhi doesn't have the green light to take the same type of shots or the same volume of shots as Curry. If Kawhi tried to pull up from 35+ feet Pop would automatically bench him regardless of whether or not it goes in.
On top of that, we saw what happens when the Spurs switch on Curry and make his life miserable from three. That's because Curry isn't going to be as effective without his best offensive asset by far, the three ball. You can take Kawhi's three away and he can still hurt teams in a variety of ways.
I don't care what Lebron was in the past, this year Kawhi has been a better offensive player. We've already seen what happens between Lebron and Kawhi head to head. Your statement Kawhi is a tier below Lebron I just don't agree with.
The player I think can score from 3, post ups, finish at the rim, and draw fouls is Kevin Durant. I think Durant is the most complete offensive player in the league right now. That's not to say that Curry's style of play hasn't changed the game but that comes back to his range. He takes what would be considered a bad shot for almost any other player.
How has Kawhi been a better offensive player? LeBron beats him by all traditional and advanced offensive stats.
Also, head to head this season he's been better than Kawhi - 25 PPG on 55% vs 22 PPG on 45% for Kawhi.
I am referring to total offensive game and Lebron has been horrible from three this year. I don't think the Cavs scare anyone on this board and a lot has to do with Lebron transitioning out of his prime.
What happened? As far as I'm concerned they were pretty even in their matchups this year with LeBron having a bit of an edge.
Kawhi isn't on LeBron's level offensively. I think you could argue he's as good of a scorer as LeBron is now that LeBron's jumper seems to be MIA, but the gap in their playmaking abilities is too wide to put them on the same tier offensively. LeBron's ability to run an offense and create for others is what separates him from Kawhi.
I think it has more to do with that team not being anything special outside of LeBron. Kyrie hasn't looked the same since coming back from injury. Love is a complete liability on defense and even his offense hasn't been anything special. JR Smith? Shumpert? Dellavedova? Tristan Thompson? Those guys don't look very good when you compare them to Manu, Duncan, Green, Diaw, Parker, etc.
I mean I agree that LeBron's lack of a jumper is an issue, but he's still a ridiculous player. It's crazy how much people take him for granted. Dude is putting up 25/7/7 on a 58 TS% and people act like he's completely fallen off or something.
Like I said in that last post, if you want to argue that Kawhi is on LeBron's level when it comes to scoring, I could buy that. But when you're looking at their total offensive impact, LeBron still has the clear edge because of his playmaking abilities.
well it was true when bb in O was played around superstar with high usage... the duncan 4down in the 00s then as D has always been more a team effort, D was less valuable. Basically it was more difficult to find a high volume scorer (kobe, MJ style) than stabilizing a defense. Thinking of the past imo.... there is a reason why good defender being offensive liability don't exist anymore ala Bruce.
now winning bb on O is/was (?) more a team effort than before, almost as much as collective than defense... so the whole O > D is a bit antiguated as some krew members would say
Last edited by Brazil; 04-04-2016 at 02:05 PM.
I agree with you in that Lebron has a greater impact on offense but I think that is a byproduct of your first point being Lebron plays on a flawed team. Danny Green, Bobo, Patty, Manu, Slomo, and the whole gang have been frustratingly inconsistent but it'd be awful to watch Shump, JR, Frye, Delli, and his crew.
Kawhi has the luxury of playin with LMA and playing for Pop. You are right about the stats though. That's my bad, I too have taken his season for granted. I think it might be the constant negative press coming out of Cleveland.
Kawhi being able to defend the way he does puts him higher on the MVP list for me over Lebron.
Yes but that's a different story (and argument).
Kawhi is not (yet) recognized at the same level offensively as Curry, Lebron, Westbrook, Durant, Harden... I agree that Pop might never give him the green light (or rather might never even need to give him the green light) or even the minutes. It would not be the first Spurs player being held back for the good of the team. As long as it's the case, though, we're only talking about potential and that isn't going to cut it with the media and casual fans.
To put it another way, let's say you HAVE to score a basket and you can pick any player in the NBA, who are you picking? I don't think many people would say Kawhi, mostly because he's not particularly good at scoring off the dribble (although I feel he's improving).
I'd pick Curry or Harden, personally (Harden because he'd be going to the line no matter what).
I wonder how prime Tim would be embraced by the media/NBA fandom at large in today's NBA? I hope Pop eventually gives Kawhi the legend treatment in three years after Kawhi hits his prime.
I agree with you on the last shot point. I think Harden is the best last shot taker, he is cold blooded. Luckily he is a turnover machine this year.
I would say yes overall Kawhi is better than Curry but it's not a travesty that Curry is ranked above him. In the past the best player in the league usually has been a perfect 10 on offense and defense. Jordan,Shaq,Hakeem,Duncan,Lebron were all perfect 10's in both categories when they were at their peaks. I think if anything it shows both Curry and Kawhi are not overall dominant like the previous best players in the league.
It's important to remember that Tim was better in his rookie year than Kawhi is now. That's how legendary Tim is.
And to put his MVP years in perspective, he was averaging over 25 & 12. Actually there's only one player this season (DeMarcus Cousins with 27 & 11.6) who is averaging more than Duncan's career numbers (let's not even mention peak). Duncan was a monster in an era with legit HoF bigs. Prime Duncan now would be killing everybody. I'm quite sure the media and fans would react exactly the same way they did before, maybe even more as there would be no compe ion.
When I watch Kawhi play his game reminds me of MJ from '95-'98 just less athletic and not as good of a ball handler. The first part there's not much Kawhi can do to fix that. He has above average athletic ability but not super athletic ability. Athleticism is very important for a perimeter player when it comes to being a dominant scorer. The greatest perimeter scorers tended to be super athletic freaks. Guys like Lebron,Durant,Wade,Kobe,Tmac,Westbrook all have that super athletic ability that gave them a quick first step along with being great finishers around the rim. I will say Kawhi has learned to make great acrobatic lay ups around the rim but he can't get up as high as those guys. Kawhi no matter how hard he works will never have the leaping ability or the great quickness those guys had that allows for infinite opportunities to score. When it comes to ball handling skills Kawhi has gotten a lot better but he still has room for improvement. There are times when he drives I have notice he gets stripped or loses the ball. I think that's the part where Kawhi will get better at knowing his work ethic. Kawhi's offensive game as it is right now I don't believe he could be a guy who could score 27-30 per a game consistently even if Pop let him go unhinged.
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