Hillary still in hiding...

[RandomGuy]

Manufacturing jobs aren't coming back because labor prices from an overly spoiled society have made it that way. "Living wage" to most today includes luxuries like cell phones, designer shoes, internet and all-day AC. This is 100% due to our society and not the Government. Nothing can be done to solve our societal issues, except giving harsh doses of reality to people who think luxuries should be gauranteed to every born American. But, inversely, raising the minimum wage is NOT the answer, it will just eliminate more small businesses, the sector that employs 97% of the country, AGAIN, and millions and millions more will be in soup lines. I saw it when we first opened our company and we are seeing it everywhere due to the burdens the ty Left shifted onto the employers. This is an issue started by our spoiled society and compounded by en lement pimp politicians.

No, manufacturing jobs are gone because of automation, and technology.

Most American companies are sitting on record profits and piles of cash. That money is not really helping the economy, and raises in wages would kick start things greatly, simply due to the velocity of money effect.

Economic growth is always tied to demographics due to changing spending patterns, and no aging country EVER will have the kinds of economic growth that growing populations offer.

You should really read more.

[RandomGuy]

No. It's because you can't live on 6.00 an hour, no matter how much you tighten your belt. This isn't the 1970's.

You probably pine for the glory days of the 1950's, when domestic manufacturing was at its peak and John Q. Public could make a comfortable living as a factory worker, but guess what? The corporate tax rate in those days was higher (meaning John Q. Public carried less overall tax burden) and the US had zero compe ion in the manufacturing sector from developing countries. Furthermore, you denigrate modern day Americans as "lazy and spoiled" people who don't want to do those jobs for low wages (I take it you want them paid something like 7-8.00 per hour?), but at the same time forget the fact that in 1963, for instance, the average hourly wage for a factory worker was 2.50. Adjust for inflation, and that comes out to about 20.00 per hour, which is near what the average factory workers make now.

We simply can't compete with China, Mexico, Vietnam, India, etc in that sector any longer, no matter how much Americans proverbially tighten the belt or the bumps businesses get from the government in the form of tax breaks, tariffs, etc.

That era is over. We're a service economy now.

Eyup. The only constant is change, and that sums it up.

[RandomGuy]

More threats posed to the manufacturing sector:

https://techcrunch.com/2016/11/09/tr...-wont-let-him/

"Well, at least some jobs are coming home "

But this kind of factory will be a far cry from the mega factories of the 50's and such that employed whole towns of thousands of people. You could probably get away with a robot-to-human worker ratio of 20-1 or even more. Conceivably, a couple of guys could run the whole thing from an office. Ah:



http://www.techrepublic.com/article/...duction-soars/

And the kind of work these "factory workers" will be required to do isn't the type of roll-up-your-sleeves assembly line work someone in the Rust Belt is qualified/used to doing. Basically be IT work. A commentator summed it up nicely:



And again, the amount of people this factory could employ won't in anyway buoy cities and communities previously devastated by lost manufacturing jobs. And trust me, I hate this. It essentially forces workers in all sectors (automation is starting to creep into more industries beside manufacturing) to become IT nerds.

The solution would be assign everyone a "robot" who basically acts as their surrogate worker. They're responsible for its maintenance and upkeep. This way, a factory of 300 robots employs 300 workers. Problem is, "robots" can be anything from the cliched idea of individual motorized arms and legs performing tasks or a self-contained single system assembled from conveyor belts, arms and levers that is essentially a single robot. So how many workers can you conceivably assign to the latter?

This eventually all leads to everyone just getting a guaranteed income. Or we can start becoming "moral consumers" and vow not to buy goods from companies that produce goods primarily through automation.

No easy solution in sight here.

+1

This is what the people who elected Trump simply don't understand. They want the magic ponies he promised.

There are going to be a uva lot of people really pissed when he doesn't deliver anything he promised during the election.

[RandomGuy]

2 points:

1. It's a global worker pool that Americans are up against. Unless the manufacturing process involves high-end specialized skills, Mexico and China will always beat developed countries via cost arbitrage. Putting a unilateral 35% tariff would not make Mexico less compe ive globally. It will only make American prices rise by 35%. Tariffs will only work if every other consuming market does it too.

2. US tax rates are an afterthought for multinational firms (which coincidentally are the ones that run factories in China and Mexico), because they can always locate an office in a lower tax country and use transfer pricing to recognise all profits in that country. So either you lower the US corporate tax rate to near zero levels, or reach a global tax transfer agreement. The vague "cut taxes and regulations" solution belongs to 80s politics.

Another +1.

I am going to be happy about the tariffs. We will get a solid lesson in free market economics when prices e, the jobs don't materialize, and the people who voted for him thinking that the free trade agreements stole jobs will be scratching their ignorant heads going "what happened?"

[SnakeBoy]

No, manufacturing jobs are gone because of automation, and technology.

So companies move their manufacturing to Mexico, China, etc. to take advantage of those countries superior automation & technology.....I did not know that.

[DMC]

+1

This is what the people who elected Trump simply don't understand. They want the magic ponies he promised.

There are going to be a uva lot of people really pissed when he doesn't deliver anything he promised during the election.

No, just the reaction from the liberals in the last two days was worth it. I don't care if he quits tomorrow, this is hilarious.

[DMC]

Another +1.

I am going to be happy about the tariffs. We will get a solid lesson in free market economics when prices e, the jobs don't materialize, and the people who voted for him thinking that the free trade agreements stole jobs will be scratching their ignorant heads going "what happened?"

This is why you're on the bottom looking up right now. You think anyone who doesn't agree with liberal policies is ignorant. See what that kind of rhetoric did for you? Now you have a ing maniac in the WH. You had it made but was it enough? no, you had to try to push the middle class white man off the cliff.

[z0sa]

Eyup. The only constant is change, and that sums it up.

"Sorry, we just cant" is why Hillary got dominated.

[z0sa]

So companies move their manufacturing to Mexico, China, etc. to take advantage of those countries superior automation & technology.....I did not know that.

exactly.

[boutons_deux]

So companies move their manufacturing to Mexico, China, etc. to take advantage of those countries superior automation & technology.....I did not know that.

Automation and technology in USA will reduce or kill those low-wage jobs in MX, CN

[z0sa]

Automation and technology in USA will reduce or kill those low-wage jobs in MX, CN

Says who, you? Youre a ing idiot.

Whoever exports jobs should be paying the government the difference in taxes. If it costs a guy 15 an hr to work the assembly line here, then thats what every company will pay, either to an American, or to a Mexican/East Asian and their state and federal tax collectors.

[Warlord23]

So companies move their manufacturing to Mexico, China, etc. to take advantage of those countries superior automation & technology.....I did not know that.

Factories where automation is more cost-effective than manual labor will get automated - old jobs will be lost and new ones created in developed nations. Factories where manual labor is still viable will rather remain in low-cost locations than in the US. It's just mathematics at work, not ideology.

The US is still a manufacturing powerhouse. Manufacturing output has doubled in constant-currency terms compared to 30 years ago. The problem is that it takes much less labor now to get the same job done.

However I agree with DMC that the Democratic party has ignored this problem for a long time. I'm sure he'll admit that the GOP is guilty of being in the same boat. Trump and Sanders figured out how to talk about the problem, and nobody else did. There is no easy solution to this problem, but that didn't stop Trump from promising one. Now he is on the hook to deliver an impossible outcome.

[Warlord23]

Says who, you? Youre a ing idiot.

Whoever exports jobs should be paying the government the difference in taxes. If it costs a guy 15 an hr to work the assembly line here, then thats what every company will pay, either to an American, or to a Mexican/East Asian and their state and federal tax collectors.

Here is the problem with your solution. The company which exports jobs is not beholden to the US in any way and will never be. Corporations aren't citizens and can't be unilaterally forced by a single country to pay up. Now if you have half the planet agreeing on this and putting a global tax framework in place, you have a chance.

[z0sa]

Factories where automation is more cost-effective than manual labor will get automated - old jobs will be lost and new ones created in developed nations. Factories where manual labor is still viable will rather remain in low-cost locations than in the US. It's just mathematics at work...

That is fine. Every one of these automated factories need to have every corner on American soil, while being built, engineered, programmed and supervised by Americans.

[z0sa]

Here is the problem with your solution. The company which exports jobs is not beholden to the US in any way and will never be. Corporations aren't citizens and can't be unilaterally forced by a single country to pay up. Now if you have half the planet agreeing on this and putting a global tax framework in place, you have a chance.

Then leave and dont ever come back.

[Th'Pusher]

This is why you're on the bottom looking up right now. You think anyone who doesn't agree with liberal policies is ignorant. See what that kind of rhetoric did for you? Now you have a ing maniac in the WH. You had it made but was it enough? no, you had to try to push the middle class white man off the cliff.

not wanting tariffs is a liberal policy? The world has been turned upside down.

[boutons_deux]

Whoever exports jobs should be paying the government the difference in taxes.

You're a ing idiot.

Who is going to pass such a law, regulation? Your Repug buddies?

If US companies can produce a product with almost no workers in USA, why would they keep or start factories elsewhere?

[Warlord23]

Then leave and dont ever come back.

So economic isolation like North Korea or erstwhile Cuba? You really think that is going to create a strong middle class?

Btw, not trying to be antagonistic ... but this is not a problem with a 1-liner as a solution.

[z0sa]

If US companies can produce a product with almost no workers in USA, why would they keep or start factories elsewhere?

They wouldnt. Which Im perfectly fine with. Why arent you?

[z0sa]

So economic isolation like North Korea or erstwhile Cuba? You really think that is going to create a strong middle class?

Btw, not trying to be antagonistic ... but this is not a problem with a 1-liner as a solution.

I didnt say that. I just think it is time to call Big Whichever's bluffs and see who folds and who calls, that is all. We need honesty, not lip service, WE being the average American citizenry.

[boutons_deux]

"WE being the average American citizenry"

Look up the recent Princeton study on oligarchy in the USA.

99% of the time, BigDonors get their preferences into law, regulations.

1% of the time, citizens get their preferences, and most of those times, BigDonors happen to want the same.

iow, there's no bluff to call. The self-dealing oligarchy holds ALL the cards. Disenfranchised citizens aren't even seated at the table.

[Warlord23]

I didnt say that. I just think it is time to call Big Whichever's bluffs and see who folds and who calls, that is all. We need honesty, not lip service, WE being the average American citizenry.

But that wouldn't solve the whole problem. Tesla's Gigafactory 1 will produce more lithium batteries in 2020 than what the whole world did 3 years back - and they'll do it with a fraction of the workforce. Even if automated factories stay in the US, the rust belt isn't going to recover the jobs they've lost. And Tesla's second gigafactory is going to be set up in Europe, not the US. Do you force Elon Musk to either set up both factories in the US or ask him to get out altogether?

[z0sa]

But that wouldn't solve the whole problem. Tesla's Gigafactory 1 will produce more lithium batteries in 2020 than what the whole world did 3 years back - and they'll do it with a fraction of the workforce. Even if automated factories stay in the US, the rust belt isn't going to recover the jobs they've lost. And Tesla's second gigafactory is going to be set up in Europe, not the US. Do you force Elon Musk to either set up both factories in the US or ask him to get out altogether?

Why do you assume I think every lost job is coming back? This is the problem with the current discourse. I am not living in a fantasy world where every factory job from the Golden Age of the Middle class in the 50s and 60s returns with the same pay and benefits. It is really not even worth continuing the conversation if all you are going to do is repeatedly assume you know the fine details of my position.

As for Tesla, if he opts to build two identical factories and pay the exact same wages in both.... whats the issue?

[Warlord23]

Why do you assume I think every lost job is coming back? This is the problem with the current discourse. I am not living in a fantasy world where every factory job from the Golden Age of the Middle class in the 50s and 60s returns with the same pay and benefits. It is really not even worth continuing the conversation if all you are going to do is repeatedly assume you know the fine details of my position.

As for Tesla, if he opts to build two identical factories and pay the exact same wages in both.... whats the issue?

I didn't imply that you thought the jobs are coming back. But that solution has been sold to Trump's rust belt base. I think we both agree on the nature and magnitude of the problem. The question is how do you solve it.

[DMC]

Jobs aren't coming back. The only new jobs that will be created will be in Trump's cabinet.