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  1. #51
    But you have to sign a deal now. The question has to be answered. Admitting you aren't informed enough is fine, just quit speaking like you do know.
    No we don't. We have a contract through 2010 and it has not been ended by either party yet.

    So you would pay any price to Tom Benson to keep the Saints. Fine. Just say so. You can bet taxpayers here will voice their opinion about how much to pay for an NFL team.
    B.S. Don't put words in my mouth...I never said that.

  2. #52
    Alleged Michigander ChumpDumper's Avatar
    Post Count
    154,481
    No we don't. We have a contract through 2010 and it has not been ended by either party yet.
    And if it is?

    How much?
    B.S. Don't put words in my mouth...I never said that.
    Then give a number. As an informed, taxpaying voter you must certainly have a threshold of tolerance regarding the amount of money you would pay Tom Benson directly in the very likely event that the current contract is voided before the end of this month, don't you?

    Or are you telling me you will be completely lost if the contract is voided?

  3. #53
    Guess who's back. TheWriter's Avatar
    Post Count
    4,912
    I'm pretty sure Benson can get out of that contract two ways.

    1) The force majure.

    2) Just pay 81 million to the state.

    He's going to be doing the first.

  4. #54
    And if it is?

    How much?Then give a number. As an informed, taxpaying voter you must certainly have a threshold of tolerance regarding the amount of money you would pay Tom Benson directly in the very likely event that the current contract is voided before the end of this month, don't you?

    Or are you telling me you will be completely lost if the contract is voided?
    Honestly I think if the contract is voided we are most likely completely out of the picture with Benson.

  5. #55
    Free Throw Coach Aggie Hoopsfan's Avatar
    Post Count
    31,094
    Nobody knows how much of the city is going to have to be raised...I don't know where you get this number from
    70% of the city was underwater. This is what's known as a fact. Do you understand what water does to structures, particularly wooden ones? Concrete used in buildings was also not built to be underwater for a month.

    It's called civil engineering 101.

    Fine, don't be surprised if you see our National Guard at the borders guarding our oil and gas pipelines. If our gov. had any balls (no pun intended) it would be done already.

    Go get your oil and gas from Florida...oh wait.
    You realize that something like 70% of all gas consumed in the US has gone through refineries in Houston, right?

    Your right LA does have bigger problems. We are constantly being screwed by the federal government. Not just FEMA and the legislators not wanting to give us federal aid anymore. It started waaayy before Katrina.
    Maybe if your state wasn't the shining example of socialist governmental welfare, people with brains wouldn't have the reservations they're having.

    Considering your dip legislators asked for enough money for La. so that every single person in the state could build like a $300K dream home, thank God someone in D.C. is doing something besides handing out blank checks.

  6. #56
    Honestly I think if the contract is voided we are most likely completely out of the picture with Benson.
    Not necessarily. Word is that he will void the lease, schedule 2006 in SA, and leave the door open. Translate: the bidding will open.

  7. #57
    After scanning many threads, I've learned we can ing cuss here. Cool.

    I'm a Louisiana native who has been forced to live in Texas for a long time. I love my home town, Nawlins. I've driven over there for YEARS to watch the Saints play. I understand that the $125 mil will be to rip out the interior of the Dome and replace it due to bio-hazard. Otherwise, I sure won't be going in there and you can bet that the Player's Association won't allow the players in there if it's not 100% clean.

    Anyone know anyone who has personally entered the Dome since Katrina? I do. It's ing unreal. A total nightmare. Clean by December 1st? LMFAO!

  8. #58
    70% of the city was underwater. This is what's known as a fact. Do you understand what water does to structures, particularly wooden ones? Concrete used in buildings was also not built to be underwater for a month.
    Once the support beams warp, wooden buildings become structurally unsound and uninhabitable. Every wooden building that was underwater for any length of time is up for condemnation.

    With concrete, it depends. Some of those buildings in New Orleans very well may have been built to resist flooding, even extended flooding. It depends how well the concrete was sealed, if it was sealed at all.

    Ordinarily, concrete is porous, and if immersed for an extended period of time, the rebar oxidizes and expands, which spalls the concrete. If this is superficial, it's no big deal. Otherwise, the building is structurally unsound and uninhabitable.

    If the concrete is coated or sealed, the buildings may be salvageable.

    You realize that something like 70% of all gas consumed in the US has gone through refineries in Houston, right?
    He likes to spout off about how rich Louisiana would be if it were independent, because of this reason and that.

    But with all those resources, shouldn't Louisiana be rich now?

    Most other states are viewing wealth more in terms of knowledge and services, since that's where our economy is going. It's why, for example, the U.S. still has a growing economy, despite sky-high energy prices that in the past would have triggered a deep recession.

    The Louisiana mindset still views wealth primarily as a function of natural resources and industry, which is another reason they trail the rest of the country.

    His diatribe about how rich Louisiana would become based upon the duties it would force us to pay is yet another sign of antediluvian economic thinking. It's the thinking that led to the Great Depression. Restrictions to trade inhibit wealth; they don't create it, in this world economy. It's not 1800 anymore.

    And I bet our friend is a well-educated, relatively successful person. But he's a product of a society that is totally backwards compared to the wealthier states, be they red or blue. It's like a time warp -- they even have blue-dog conservative Southern Democrats, still, a species that started fading in Texas in the 1980's, and pretty much had died out 10 years ago.

    And our friend remains under the pleasant delusion that everybody that fled Louisiana inevitably will go back because it's so super-wonderful and they love it. Well, I've met many folks who already have found new jobs, are shocked at how high their salary is, and at how low the cost of living is, and at how much nicer the neighboorhoods and schools and roads and everything else are, and aren't ever going back. And it's not as if I'm living in a beautiful, well-run place. It's just that New Orleans was that bad, and that for those living there who never got the opportunity to see how other Americans live, ignorance was bliss.

    Perhaps for the folks at the top of the economic food chain who sent their kids to private schools, and whose jobs are still there, there's reason to go back. But if you think the New Orleans area will be anywhere back near 1.3 million people within the next decade, you're in denial.

    Maybe if your state wasn't the shining example of socialist governmental welfare, people with brains wouldn't have the reservations they're having.
    I wouldn't call Louisiana politics "socialist" by any stretch of the imagination. That's an idiotic right-wing talking point. Massachusetts is "socialist:" high taxes, big government.

    In Louisiana, taxation for individuals is extremely low, and services are even lower. It's business taxes and corruption that siphon off people's wealth -- the extreme difficulty in doing business compared to Texas keeps jobs away, and their own politicans steal whatever money they do pay in taxes. It's like a Central American or Carribean banana republic, not Euro-style "social democracy."

    Katrina should be an opportunity for Louisiana to look at how their way of doing things has let them down, and perhaps finally to start the meaningful reforms that will make their state compe ive with those around them, and stop their slow, inextricable decline. Instead, it sounds like our buddy already has digested the talking points about how poor, poor Louisiana got a raw deal from the federal government and how much it deserves. This inability to practice introspection and take responsibility for one's own failures is the hallmark of dysfunctional societies, and I suppose our neighbors to the east won't be leaving that fold anytime soon.

    I'll bet that mindset also lies behind this Saints controversy. Poor, poor us, we deserve our Saints, Benson has a lot of money, so he should take pity on us and keep his team here, and if he can't afford it, then the other owners should help him pay for it, because we deserve it,and if they won't, then Congress should give us money to keep them. Gimme, gimme, gimme.

    Instead of saying, "Let's get the Saints in the fold, they're important to the local economy, they're a visible symbol of the city, and a new or substantially refurbished facility needs to be part of the campaign to redevelop New Orleans, as a new, vibrant cultural and economic center," we hear "let's patch the Superdome back together, put some tarp on the roof, do the bare minimum for decontamination, and buy off a judge to force them to play there."

    My biggest fear is that all this money will be spent in New Orleans, and we'll have a city that's no less blighted, rebuilt in the same low spots, without much meaningful new infrastructure, with no real plan other than sprucing up the downtown tourist districts and handing out earmarks to loyal cronies, with the same inherently flawed earthen levees, just higher, and only superficial attempts at wetlands restoration. We'll have a metro area of 500,000 people, just as stagnant economically, with entire districts just left there, neither rebuilt nor restored nor razed, just abandoned to the gangs with city block after city block of collapsing crack houses, while politicans three blocks away smile into the cameras as they proclaim a "reborn" New Orleans in front of the newest casino. And any problems will be just because the mean ol' federal government screwed them over again, and by the way, NFL, where's our new football team? Because that's how things are done in Louisiana.

    Our friend may hate to hear it, but it's the truth, and that state is never going to turn things around until they stop waiting for everbody else to give them their "due" and just start building. Texas gets 9 miles of royalties because it negotiates from a position of strength, while Louisiana negotiates from a position of weakness. Stop whining about how unfair it is. Reform your state to make it lean, mean, and compe ive, cut out the graft and corruption and sense of en lement and antiquated system of laws and governance, and people will deal with you in a more evenhanded way because you hold the cards and they have no other choice.

  9. #59
    If Benson is crafty enough, perhaps he can convince Tagliabue and the rest of the owners that he is indeed open to a LA move. That might make the league more hospitable to a move out of New Orleans. That might be why we are hearing that the Saints will play in SA in 2006 and then be a free agent after that.

  10. #60
    I believe the league recognizes that a team in New Orleans is simply not feasible at this time and that an owner cannot be forced to stay in such a market. The real battle is going to be SA v. LA.

  11. #61
    BTW, Marcus, your Saints helmet is out of date, if you care.

  12. #62
    I'm going back to the future, as it were.

  13. #63
    Once the support beams warp, wooden buildings become structurally unsound and uninhabitable. Every wooden building that was underwater for any length of time is up for condemnation.

    With concrete, it depends. Some of those buildings in New Orleans very well may have been built to resist flooding, even extended flooding. It depends how well the concrete was sealed, if it was sealed at all.

    Ordinarily, concrete is porous, and if immersed for an extended period of time, the rebar oxidizes and expands, which spalls the concrete. If this is superficial, it's no big deal. Otherwise, the building is structurally unsound and uninhabitable.

    If the concrete is coated or sealed, the buildings may be salvageable.

    He likes to spout off about how rich Louisiana would be if it were independent, because of this reason and that.

    But with all those resources, shouldn't Louisiana be rich now?

    Most other states are viewing wealth more in terms of knowledge and services, since that's where our economy is going. It's why, for example, the U.S. still has a growing economy, despite sky-high energy prices that in the past would have triggered a deep recession.

    The Louisiana mindset still views wealth primarily as a function of natural resources and industry, which is another reason they trail the rest of the country.

    His diatribe about how rich Louisiana would become based upon the duties it would force us to pay is yet another sign of antediluvian economic thinking. It's the thinking that led to the Great Depression. Restrictions to trade inhibit wealth; they don't create it, in this world economy. It's not 1800 anymore.

    And I bet our friend is a well-educated, relatively successful person. But he's a product of a society that is totally backwards compared to the wealthier states, be they red or blue. It's like a time warp -- they even have blue-dog conservative Southern Democrats, still, a species that started fading in Texas in the 1980's, and pretty much had died out 10 years ago.

    And our friend remains under the pleasant delusion that everybody that fled Louisiana inevitably will go back because it's so super-wonderful and they love it. Well, I've met many folks who already have found new jobs, are shocked at how high their salary is, and at how low the cost of living is, and at how much nicer the neighboorhoods and schools and roads and everything else are, and aren't ever going back. And it's not as if I'm living in a beautiful, well-run place. It's just that New Orleans was that bad, and that for those living there who never got the opportunity to see how other Americans live, ignorance was bliss.

    Perhaps for the folks at the top of the economic food chain who sent their kids to private schools, and whose jobs are still there, there's reason to go back. But if you think the New Orleans area will be anywhere back near 1.3 million people within the next decade, you're in denial.

    I wouldn't call Louisiana politics "socialist" by any stretch of the imagination. That's an idiotic right-wing talking point. Massachusetts is "socialist:" high taxes, big government.

    In Louisiana, taxation for individuals is extremely low, and services are even lower. It's business taxes and corruption that siphon off people's wealth -- the extreme difficulty in doing business compared to Texas keeps jobs away, and their own politicans steal whatever money they do pay in taxes. It's like a Central American or Carribean banana republic, not Euro-style "social democracy."

    Katrina should be an opportunity for Louisiana to look at how their way of doing things has let them down, and perhaps finally to start the meaningful reforms that will make their state compe ive with those around them, and stop their slow, inextricable decline. Instead, it sounds like our buddy already has digested the talking points about how poor, poor Louisiana got a raw deal from the federal government and how much it deserves. This inability to practice introspection and take responsibility for one's own failures is the hallmark of dysfunctional societies, and I suppose our neighbors to the east won't be leaving that fold anytime soon.

    I'll bet that mindset also lies behind this Saints controversy. Poor, poor us, we deserve our Saints, Benson has a lot of money, so he should take pity on us and keep his team here, and if he can't afford it, then the other owners should help him pay for it, because we deserve it,and if they won't, then Congress should give us money to keep them. Gimme, gimme, gimme.

    Instead of saying, "Let's get the Saints in the fold, they're important to the local economy, they're a visible symbol of the city, and a new or substantially refurbished facility needs to be part of the campaign to redevelop New Orleans, as a new, vibrant cultural and economic center," we hear "let's patch the Superdome back together, put some tarp on the roof, do the bare minimum for decontamination, and buy off a judge to force them to play there."

    My biggest fear is that all this money will be spent in New Orleans, and we'll have a city that's no less blighted, rebuilt in the same low spots, without much meaningful new infrastructure, with no real plan other than sprucing up the downtown tourist districts and handing out earmarks to loyal cronies, with the same inherently flawed earthen levees, just higher, and only superficial attempts at wetlands restoration. We'll have a metro area of 500,000 people, just as stagnant economically, with entire districts just left there, neither rebuilt nor restored nor razed, just abandoned to the gangs with city block after city block of collapsing crack houses, while politicans three blocks away smile into the cameras as they proclaim a "reborn" New Orleans in front of the newest casino. And any problems will be just because the mean ol' federal government screwed them over again, and by the way, NFL, where's our new football team? Because that's how things are done in Louisiana.

    Our friend may hate to hear it, but it's the truth, and that state is never going to turn things around until they stop waiting for everbody else to give them their "due" and just start building. Texas gets 9 miles of royalties because it negotiates from a position of strength, while Louisiana negotiates from a position of weakness. Stop whining about how unfair it is. Reform your state to make it lean, mean, and compe ive, cut out the graft and corruption and sense of en lement and antiquated system of laws and governance, and people will deal with you in a more evenhanded way because you hold the cards and they have no other choice.
    Whoa.

    I think you just scared our friend away.

  14. #64
    70% of the city was underwater. This is what's known as a fact. Do you understand what water does to structures, particularly wooden ones? Concrete used in buildings was also not built to be underwater for a month.

    It's called civil engineering 101.
    70% of the CITY proper of NO may have had water. That doesn't mean that 70% of the houses are ruined and have to be raised. Some streets were under water but the houses/businesses are fine. The city of NO is only a small part of the Greater NO area. The suburbs of NO make up a majority of the population and these areas are flourishing and are recovering quite well.

    I know what water does to structures. The entire roof came off of my house and water inundated the second and first floors. It is mostly wooden and is salvagable with some work. You gut the house down to the studs and bricks and treat the wood then you start rebuilding. Granted some of the places that held water for 2 weeks will be in much worse shape and will have to be raised but I believe you perception of the area where this is the case is quite exagerated.

    You realize that something like 70% of all gas consumed in the US has gone through refineries in Houston, right?
    Louisiana has the greatest concentration of crude oil refineries, natural gas processing plants and petrochemical production facilities in the Western Hemisphere.

    Louisiana is America's third largest producer of petroleum and the third leading state in petroleum refining.

    Louisiana is America's second largest producer of natural gas. It supplies slightly more than one-quarter of the total U.S. production.

    There are some 3500 active oil rigs of the coast of Louisiana. How many does Texas have in comparison?

    http://www.state.la.us/about_industry.htm

    The Louisiana Offshore Oil Port (LOOP) is a deepwater port in the Gulf of Mexico off the coast of Louisiana near the town of Port Fourchon. LOOP provides tanker offloading and temporary storage services for crude oil transported on some of the largest tankers in the world. Most tankers offloading at LOOP are too large for U.S. inland ports. LOOP handles 13 percent of the nation's foreign oil, about 1.2 million barrels a day, and connects by pipeline to 35 percent of the U.S. refining capability. This is just one pipeline that goes through LA and it provides 35% of the oil refined in the U.S.

    I would love to see some confirmation of your 70% number. The oil may be refined in the Houston area but the oil being refined has to come from somewhere.

    But with all those resources, shouldn't Louisiana be rich now?
    We would be if we were awarded our fair share.

    Most other states are viewing wealth more in terms of knowledge and services, since that's where our economy is going. It's why, for example, the U.S. still has a growing economy, despite sky-high energy prices that in the past would have triggered a deep recession.
    Oh yea the people of LA have zero knowledge and we have no services whatsoever, that is what makes us poor. How about if we get the same money Texas and Florida and Alaska are en led to so we use our money, services and knowlege to repair our coast?

    The Louisiana mindset still views wealth primarily as a function of natural resources and industry, which is another reason they trail the rest of the country.

    His diatribe about how rich Louisiana would become based upon the duties it would force us to pay is yet another sign of antediluvian economic thinking. It's the thinking that led to the Great Depression. Restrictions to trade inhibit wealth; they don't create it, in this world economy. It's not 1800 anymore.
    I'm not asking for any duties that other states are not receiving. It is suppressionist antediluvian thinking like yours that led to segragation and womanizing. It's not the 1800's anymore. I never said we needed any more restrictions to trade than what is occurring now across the U.S. We only want want everyone else is en led to.


    You act as if LA doesn't have schools or ins utions of higher learning. We have programs that reward scholarships to high school students who meet high standards.

    And I bet our friend is a well-educated, relatively successful person. But he's a product of a society that is totally backwards compared to the wealthier states, be they red or blue. It's like a time warp -- they even have blue-dog conservative Southern Democrats, still, a species that started fading in Texas in the 1980's, and pretty much had died out 10 years ago
    .

    Oh and I suppose this wealth you speak of is knowledge and services.

    I am here to tell you that your does stink just like everyone elses. Blue dog conservative democrats? C'mon man. We have as many of those as you have Branch Davidians.

    Katrina should be an opportunity for Louisiana to look at how their way of doing things has let them down, and perhaps finally to start the meaningful reforms that will make their state compe ive with those around them, and stop their slow, inextricable decline. Instead, it sounds like our buddy already has digested the talking points about how poor, poor Louisiana got a raw deal from the federal government and how much it deserves. This inability to practice introspection and take responsibility for one's own failures is the hallmark of dysfunctional societies, and I suppose our neighbors to the east won't be leaving that fold anytime soon.
    Your right Katrina is a huge opportunity for LA to change some of our ways. You spewing your rhetoric about how backwards we are and trying to steal our football team doesn't help any. Thanks for the support.

    These aren't talking points....these are facts. Yeah LA isn't perfect you don't need much introspection to realize that. But I mean when you have representatives like Tom DeLay it is easy to point fingers.

    We have been getting a raw deal from the federal government for decades. I said it before Katrina and I say it after Katrina.

    I'll bet that mindset also lies behind this Saints controversy. Poor, poor us, we deserve our Saints, Benson has a lot of money, so he should take pity on us and keep his team here, and if he can't afford it, then the other owners should help him pay for it, because we deserve it,and if they won't, then Congress should give us money to keep them. Gimme, gimme, gimme.

    Instead of saying, "Let's get the Saints in the fold, they're important to the local economy, they're a visible symbol of the city, and a new or substantially refurbished facility needs to be part of the campaign to redevelop New Orleans, as a new, vibrant cultural and economic center," we hear "let's patch the Superdome back together, put some tarp on the roof, do the bare minimum for decontamination, and buy off a judge to force them to play there."
    B.S. I presented the new stadium plan and new contract through 2030 in several threads. I have presented the fact that they are important to the local economy several times as well as how they are most recognizable organization.

    The refurbishing the superdome argument you are hearing is only for a temporary place to play. I mean we have to do something because someone is trying to steal our team and we can't possibly build a new stadium by next season. I mean WTF do you expect...just roll over and die?

    My biggest fear is that all this money will be spent in New Orleans, and we'll have a city that's no less blighted, rebuilt in the same low spots, without much meaningful new infrastructure, with no real plan other than sprucing up the downtown tourist districts and handing out earmarks to loyal cronies, with the same inherently flawed earthen levees, just higher, and only superficial attempts at wetlands restoration.
    The reason money isn't getting out to local goverments as quickly as it should is because they are making sure it is getting used correctly.

    Not one "earthen" levee failed! Only the inherently flawed concrete levees failed. The earthen leveed performed flawlessley through the whole thing. Spending money on building earthen levees higher is nothing to fear. Besides the money for the levees will go to the US Army Corps of Engineers.

    The only comment that really pisses me off in your whole attempt at degrading the great people of LA is that we would make superficial attempts at restoring our wetlands. This is complet bull ! We have real plans and ability to restore our wetlands. Have you seen the Islands they are building over in Dubai I think it is. We can do it if we have the funding. You need to rethink your fears regarding this cause because you are waaaaaayyyy off.

    Our friend may hate to hear it, but it's the truth, and that state is never going to turn things around until they stop waiting for everbody else to give them their "due" and just start building. Texas gets 9 miles of royalties because it negotiates from a position of strength, while Louisiana negotiates from a position of weakness. Stop whining about how unfair it is. Reform your state to make it lean, mean, and compe ive, cut out the graft and corruption and sense of en lement and antiquated system of laws and governance, and people will deal with you in a more evenhanded way because you hold the cards and they have no other choice.
    What? This is your reasoning? Does your strength come from the fact that Pres. Bush is from Texas? I don't get it. I thought this great country of ours was built on equality.

    I am not whining I am downright ing. I think Texas should only get 3 miles worth of royalties because DeLay is being investigated for corruption.

    Those who live in glass houses should not throw stones at others.

    The people of LA aren't asking for anything that other states are not getting, we don't feel as if we are en led to anything over and above anyone else. Just treat us equally....that is all.

    Whoa.

    I think you just scared our friend away.
    No....I'm not scared. it is a busy time around here. I wish I had more time to sit at the computer...that would be nice.

  15. #65
    See you when it burns SWC Bonfire's Avatar
    Post Count
    3,966
    It's called civil engineering 101.
    I thought civil engineering 101 was "you can't push a rope and flows downhill" ?

  16. #66
    My bad. I thought the Hornets were calling themselves the Oklahoma City/New Orleans Hornets these days.

    I may be from Louisiana, but I've been raised up here in Texas for about 30 some odd years. I love my birthplace and I've spent YEARS driving back and forth to be "at home" and watch the Saints, live at the SuperDome, but day-um! There is a terrible amont of freeloading and unemployment going on there. I have to hug my Daddy for moving us out, bringing us to Texas and sending all 7 of us to college so we wouldn't be waiting around Kelly USA for our $2000 ATM cards someday.

    Continue the bickering. It's fun to read.
    Last edited by McKensie; 10-24-2005 at 10:24 PM.

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