Grades: Spurs vs. Nuggets - Mar. 4, 2019

[superbigtime]

Hopefully we see pop stomping up and down demanding for ddr to give up the ball to white. Similar to when pop got after parker and told him to give it to kawhi.

DDR has no cons ution to take that like TP could.

[TD 21]

I have told this before: White isn't that good of a shooter. He's good enough, but he's not a spot up shooter. The Spurs would be way better off trading away DeRozan and making White the premier ball handler. I know that won't happen, but I'm just telling you what it needs to happen for the Spurs to become a better team.

Yeah, that's why this talk of a Murray-White-DeRozan starting perimeter trio next season and probably beyond, is insane and it'll only be exacerbated if they're going to try to shoehorn Poeltl into the starting lineup as much as they can.

The only way to attempt to make sense of this roster going forward, is if Forbes is traded and a starting caliber wing is acquired. Otherwise, the 5th/6th best guard/wing on the team will probably have to continue to start, which would mean rotational gymnastics would be required for him to receive the minutes commensurate with his standing, as well as the others with theirs.

[spurraider21]

having a starting wing that can't space the floor (demar) is always going to make it a challenge to assemble a good lineup

[DAF86]

Yeah, that's why this talk of a Murray-White-DeRozan starting perimeter trio next season and probably beyond, is insane and it'll only be exacerbated if they're going to try to shoehorn Poeltl into the starting lineup as much as they can.

The only way to attempt to make sense of this roster going forward, is if Forbes is traded and a starting caliber wing is acquired. Otherwise, the 5th/6th best guard/wing on the team will probably have to continue to start, which would mean rotational gymnastics would be required for him to receive the minutes commensurate with his standing, as well as the others with theirs.

Bertans should be starting instead of Forbes, tbh.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

Nice write-up Timvp!

I'd rather see the Spurs face Denver over GSW, OKC or even Houston or Portland in the first round. The Spurs match up ok with them and could possibly stretch a series a bit. I'm just hoping the Spurs (and us fans) aren't subjected to another drubbing at the hands of the Warriors.

[ZeusWillJudge]

Yeah, that's why this talk of a Murray-White-DeRozan starting perimeter trio next season and probably beyond, is insane and it'll only be exacerbated if they're going to try to shoehorn Poeltl into the starting lineup as much as they can.

The only way to attempt to make sense of this roster going forward, is if Forbes is traded and a starting caliber wing is acquired. Otherwise, the 5th/6th best guard/wing on the team will probably have to continue to start, which would mean rotational gymnastics would be required for him to receive the minutes commensurate with his standing, as well as the others with theirs.

Well if you look at shooting percentages, White shoots as good or better than Tony Parker did, from every range - except 3P, where he shoots much better. You might not know it, but he's shot .538 on corner 3's. White's biggest problem is shooting unassisted straight-away 3's. I'm not trying to compare the two as overall players. Just saying that White's shooting is adequate for the job and I think he's just getting started.

Murray, on the other hand, needs to get all the way to the hole before he can score effectively. BUT... by the second half of the season he was much improved. His TS% in the playoffs was actually pretty good. (He's aggressive going to the rim, and draws a lot of fouls.) Yes, his shooting needs to improve. But between his defense and rebounding, he secures a lot of possessions for the Spurs.

It will be interesting to see if he comes back shooting like the second half of last season, or the first. I said it in another thread, but I think he will benefit a lot from not having to pretend to be a PG.

[ZeusWillJudge]

having a starting wing that can't space the floor (demar) is always going to make it a challenge to assemble a good lineup

It gets a lot harder when he's not used right. For years, DDR has been one of the top 5 players in the league for drawing fouls and getting FTA's. Collapsing the defense can be just as good for the offense as stretching the defense by shooting 3's, because it gets the other guys wide-open looks. DeRozan has been forced to be the primary distributor too much, and it's no coincidence that his FTA's are down. He's going to the rim less often and less aggressively.

DeRozan is more than capable on the offensive end. A great slasher makes 3P shooters much more effective. The question is whether they can hide him on defense, and whether he can resist being a black hole down the stretch.

[TD 21]

Bertans should be starting instead of Forbes, tbh.

That would leave no rotational backup big wing and four rotational backup guard/wings.

For obvious reasons, I think it's safe to say DeRozan, Mills and Belinelli aren't going anywhere, so either Forbes is turned into a starting wing who can shoot and at least isn't a physical liability defensively (not saying 1 for 1, just his spot) or the pieces won't fit.

Well if you look at shooting percentages, White shoots as good or better than Tony Parker did, from every range - except 3P, where he shoots much better. You might not know it, but he's shot .538 on corner 3's. White's biggest problem is shooting unassisted straight-away 3's. I'm not trying to compare the two as overall players. Just saying that White's shooting is adequate for the job and I think he's just getting started.

Murray, on the other hand, needs to get all the way to the hole before he can score effectively. BUT... by the second half of the season he was much improved. His TS% in the playoffs was actually pretty good. (He's aggressive going to the rim, and draws a lot of fouls.) Yes, his shooting needs to improve. But between his defense and rebounding, he secures a lot of possessions for the Spurs.

It will be interesting to see if he comes back shooting like the second half of last season, or the first. I said it in another thread, but I think he will benefit a lot from not having to pretend to be a PG.

Adequate, sure, but not nearly good enough to somewhat provide breathing room for a starting lineup featuring Aldridge, DeRozan, Murray and apparently sometimes Poeltl.

White would basically have to transform into Forbes, Mills, or Belinelli if he starts alongside them. That's not him and even if it could be, it would be a waste of his talent.

[DAF86]

[LEFT][COLOR=#222222][FONT=Verdana]

That would leave no rotational backup big wing and four rotational backup guard/wings.

Gay is coming off the bench now.

[TD 21]

Gay is coming off the bench now.

He'll still likely end up primarily starting going forward, the same way Gasol did for the previous 2 seasons. Even if that wasn't the case, it makes no sense to have Bertans play wing minutes. The trickle down effect would be more minutes for 2 big lineups and even less flexibility defensively on the perimeter.

[DAF86]

He'll still likely end up primarily starting going forward, the same way Gasol did for the previous 2 seasons. Even if that wasn't the case, it makes no sense to have Bertans play wing minutes. The trickle down effect would be more minutes for 2 big lineups and even less flexibility defensively on the perimeter.

Well, I made that comment because it seems like that's the way Pop is planning to go (starting both LA and Poeltl). If that's going to be the lineup going forward, then starting Bertans over Forbes makes more sense.

[GusT15]

DeRozan is more than capable on the offensive end. A great slasher makes 3P shooters much more effective. The question is whether they can hide him on defense, and whether he can resist being a black hole down the stretch.

This right here is one of my biggest issues with DDR.
A great slasher does indeed make 3pt shooters more effective.
But DeRozan slashes,stops,gets his defender to close up on him,fakes,goes around on his pivot foot,fakes once more.If his defender bites on the fake he'll try to draw the foul and shoot awkwardly for the and1.If his defender does not bite he will shoot the 2.If his defender is a wing with a long wingspan that can block him he will look for the open 3 pass.

This is NOT how a slasher gets open looks from the 3 for his team.
This is DeRozan's horrible BBIQ on full display.

[Chris]

Good stuff per par


I like Patty Mills using his body and chest to play defense more aggressively and I thought he played well towards the end. The Nuggets made some tough shots.

[TD 21]

Well, I made that comment because it seems like that's the way Pop is planning to go (starting both LA and Poeltl). If that's going to be the lineup going forward, then starting Bertans over Forbes makes more sense.

It was an old timey preference mixed with a desperate attempt to somewhat stabilize the defense . . . but it's just not tenable as a constant in today's NBA. Two bigs is one thing, but three non 3-point shooters is another.

Even if he tries to force it in some matchups for the time being, when the congestion inevitably suffocates the offense and the defense is still not good enough to win based off of, he'll relent.

[tonski17]

Off season work out with chip would be beneficial for White, Dejounte and Lonnie.

[byrontx]

Thanks for the Grades. There’s few professional sportswriters with your knack.

[ZeusWillJudge]

This right here is one of my biggest issues with DDR.
A great slasher does indeed make 3pt shooters more effective.
But DeRozan slashes,stops,gets his defender to close up on him,fakes,goes around on his pivot foot,fakes once more.If his defender bites on the fake he'll try to draw the foul and shoot awkwardly for the and1.If his defender does not bite he will shoot the 2.If his defender is a wing with a long wingspan that can block him he will look for the open 3 pass.

This is NOT how a slasher gets open looks from the 3 for his team.
This is DeRozan's horrible BBIQ on full display.

Meh. There's some truth to all that. The biggest thing you said, IMO, is that he holds the ball too long and then looks to make the pass to a 3P shooter. Wide open 3's are the result of more than one pass. The slasher bends the defense, but doesn't get the assist. By the time DeRozan decides to give up the ball, there's time for one pass and a shot. Not all the time, but too much of the time. I can't argue with you.

That's what I meant about him learning not to be a black hole. He's not going to learn to play defense well. And he's not going to be a de facto PG. But maybe, just maybe, he can learn not to be such a black hole and trust teammates to make the extra pass. The problem is, the Spurs are stuck with him - so maybe that's just wishful thinking on my part.

[GusT15]

Wide open 3's are the result of more than one pass. The slasher bends the defense, but doesn't get the assist.

That's true as well.The way for the slasher to get the straight assist is if you're playing 4 out with a Mega Star slasher like Lebron or Giannis.

I really don't think DeMar is capable of learning not to hold the ball too much though man.He's pushing 30,he would have learnt it by now.Plus he's made millions and all star games with that exact playstyle.
I mean,his style gets him buckets,sometimes,it gets him free throws,many times,but it will never ever get him actual playoff success.Cause it's the wrong way to play the game! (Plus it's ugly)

[ZeusWillJudge]

That's true as well.The way for the slasher to get the straight assist is if you're playing 4 out with a Mega Star slasher like Lebron or Giannis.

I really don't think DeMar is capable of learning not to hold the ball too much though man.He's pushing 30,he would have learnt it by now.Plus he's made millions and all star games with that exact playstyle.
I mean,his style gets him buckets,sometimes,it gets him free throws,many times,but it will never ever get him actual playoff success.Cause it's the wrong way to play the game! (Plus it's ugly)

Well I guess we'll find out if Pop really is the GOAT, because I don't see anybody buying the $55.5M left on DDR's contract. He's going to be in the SL next year. White is going to be in the SL next year. Murray's stock is pretty low, coming off this injury. And star-caliber SF's usually don't sign for the MLE. So I think we're going to see those three playing a lot of minutes together. Surely the GOAT can make it work?

[GusT15]

Well I guess we'll find out if Pop really is the GOAT, because I don't see anybody buying the $55.5M left on DDR's contract. He's going to be in the SL next year. White is going to be in the SL next year. Murray's stock is pretty low, coming off this injury. And star-caliber SF's usually don't sign for the MLE. So I think we're going to see those three playing a lot of minutes together. Surely the GOAT can make it work?

Well,20 years ago,he would work on it day and night.
,10 years ago,he would try to find a way to at least minimize the impact it has on the team's overall performance.
But on his last year before retirement,and with what he's been through the last couple of years? I can see him lose his on practice one day and storm out murmuring "I used to coach Tim Duncan damn it,i'm too old for this ".

[cjw]

I love White, so I don't think I'm grading him harshly at all. I like Bertans, but the Valanciunas comparison seems fair to me. I think Bertans is midway between a legit starter and a net positive bench guy like Matt Bonner... better than Bonner for sure, but not quite starter level for a team thinking about a championship.

That’s fair on Bertans. He’s a role player and requires certain lineups to maximize his effectiveness. Count on him for 30 minutes and having to play without ballhandlers and things get ugly.

That’s what made Green so useful at his peak. His shooting always had to be respected, kind of like Bertans. But his defense was top 10% at his position.

[spurs10]

It's not Foerbe's fault that he is in the SL and we are essentially playing 3 guards with DDR playing the 3 instead of the 2. Yes we won't be getting a starting SF for the MLE so I see the SL remaining that way. I'm just wondering if Gay continues to come off the bench.

[monty4329]

Bertans should be starting instead of Forbes, tbh.

Bertans starting didn't work at all

[monty4329]

This right here is one of my biggest issues with DDR.
A great slasher does indeed make 3pt shooters more effective.
But DeRozan slashes,stops,gets his defender to close up on him,fakes,goes around on his pivot foot,fakes once more.If his defender bites on the fake he'll try to draw the foul and shoot awkwardly for the and1.If his defender does not bite he will shoot the 2.If his defender is a wing with a long wingspan that can block him he will look for the open 3 pass.

This is NOT how a slasher gets open looks from the 3 for his team.
This is DeRozan's horrible BBIQ on full display.

And that is when he doesn't lose the ball dribbling...

[monty4329]

Meh. There's some truth to all that. The biggest thing you said, IMO, is that he holds the ball too long and then looks to make the pass to a 3P shooter. Wide open 3's are the result of more than one pass. The slasher bends the defense, but doesn't get the assist. By the time DeRozan decides to give up the ball, there's time for one pass and a shot. Not all the time, but too much of the time. I can't argue with you.

That's what I meant about him learning not to be a black hole. He's not going to learn to play defense well. And he's not going to be a de facto PG. But maybe, just maybe, he can learn not to be such a black hole and trust teammates to make the extra pass. The problem is, the Spurs are stuck with him - so maybe that's just wishful thinking on my part.

If he didn't learn yet, there is no reason to think he wil get his head out of his colon anytime. DDR is what he is, a bad contract and a net negative on the team.
Spurs are in almost the same situation as Washington (theirs is worse because Wall has a longer contract): there is no way out, except cut ans spread the cost. Or find a dumb GM and dump him. Unfortunately Demps was fired, but maybe the Suns...