Danny Green vs Bruce Bowen.. Who is the most talented and Valuable defensive wingء?

[Gibbz]

Bowen was the better defender, but--as sad as this is--Green is far better offensively and I think that makes their value closer than you'd otherwise think. I'll still take Bruce, though. He was just that level of a defender.

[Chinook]

You lost me when you stated that the Spurs best defensive teams were with Danny and Kawhi.

The 2004 Spurs and 1999 Spurs didn’t include either of those players. The 2003-2006 Spurs were great defensively and they all had a Duncan anchored defense with Bowen as the de facto perimeter defender...

This reply by you is symptomatic of your approach to this whole debate. The 99 and 04 Spurs had really good defensive ratings, but their best performance when controlled for the era they played in was 2015-16. I will grant you that 04 did still have better relative defense. But when you start talking about 98-00, you end up getting teams that weren't nearly as superlative. The league in general had lower defensive ratings back then. Their first le run was great, but then they had two HoF big-man defenders in an era where interior defense was much more important. The early 2000s were great for the Spurs, and I don't have to say that they weren't. But they weren't their best defensive years.

It's almost disgusting that you keep making it seem like Duncan was incidental. He was arguably the best defensive player EVER. In 2007, Duncan doubled James on almost every possession in that Finals. That was the reason why saying Bowen locked James down showed a lack of memory. That Green and Leonard stifled Durant, Westbrook, James, Wade and the like with a Duncan who couldn't move his feet much at all is amazing. I can't even imagine how they'd've looked with the MVP version of Tim there.

[diego]

Overall, I just don't see how anyone could make the argument for Bowen being a better player than Green. Statistically, it's not close anymore. The only recourse for Bowen is qualitative, but as mentioned (to basically skip the whole number thing, since that isn't really refutable anymore) previously, that line of reasoning is mostly based on people's bias toward that era of Spurs basketball. Bruce was certainly a really good defender, and he deserves his praise for helping the team win les. But he was really more of a man of his era than people want to admit. What he showed in his career would not have been enough to meet with the demands of the modern NBA. He's far from the only really good player for which that is true. Maybe in the modern NBA, he could have adjusted. But his lack of offensive versatility would have been a huge hill to climb, considering how hard he had to work to even be a good corner shooter. Folks have this crystallized view of Bowen that removes almost all of his major drawbacks. They don't do the same with Green. That's not because of objective reality though.

Putting it like that I agree with you, regarding bowen in todays nba i was focusing on defence and you are right about that, however regardless of stats i still consider the big 3 era teams better defensively than the mid 3 era as you call it. And like you said, its only logical that if you consider those teams superior, you consider bowen > green as a defender.

[Phenomanul]

Duncan’s impact was not incidental, token, nor did I ever suggest as much. Part of Bowen’s brilliance was knowing exactly how to funnel players into Duncan's Zone from various play calls and opponent offensive sets. His ability to quickly discern which way to counter a play and WHERE to be was equally as valuable to his skill set as any other. Many players were faster, and more athletic than Bowen but he was defensively smarter than most of them which is why you can’t simply gloss over the mental facet of the skill.

Forcing your opponent to dribble where he doesn’t want to, because it will place him at a disadvantage against Tim is still to Bowen’s credit - you shouldn’t take that away from him.

The dynamic in the Kawhi/Green pairing was very different. Both were (during their tenure with Spurs) excellent on ball defenders, but I think you’re missing the point in comparing the two tandems. 90% of the time Kawhi was tasked with defending the other team’s best perimeter player, and Green would take the next threat in line. In the Bowen/Duncan pairing Duncan wasn’t tasked with guarding anyone on the perimeter- Bowen was. Consequently, Bruce was often matched against the opposing team’s best player because the NBA had less superstars at the 4/5 positions than at the 1/2/3 positions. Obviously, Duncan would be tasked in defending any star 4/5 player depending on their skill set. 4’s that would pull Duncan to the perimeter (Nowitzki, Okur, KG) would often give him problems and Bowen or Horry would be called to help out so that the team would not be left as vulnerable inside. Duncan was elite down low and guarded the basket but Bruce’s primary job was to force their best player into playing out of their comfort zone. Few opponents can say the same about Danny Green (Paul on some occasions, Curry on others), many can say that about Kawhi. But that was Bruce’s calling card.

As for Advanced Defensive statistics I don’t know that they’re as relatable to different eras. For example, Anthony Davis’s metrics during the past two seasons suggest that he is as great defensively as players like Hakeem Olajuwon and David Robinson, but this simply does not pass the eye test. Many stars today earn their check from points off of 3pt shots, their inside game is not as elite or as polished as the stars who made their bread and butter off of points inside the 3 point line. Davis’s metrics reap the benefit of playing against a player pool that has slightly lesser talent at/near the basket (a smidgeon if you will, but a smidgeon nonetheless). Players like Olajuwon and Robinson would frequently meet people at the top and rip the ball from their hands. I’ve maybe have seen Davis do that twice. But the point is that I wouldn’t expect Bowen’s personal metrics to be otherworldly simply because his best defensive tactic was to force the opposing player out of their offensive sets - and it usually led to winning ball. Advanced metrics aren’t able to quantify that.

[RC_Drunkford]

I watched Danny guarding Curry, the best shooter in NBA history and KD a way better player than Kobe.

yeah and he didn't lock up any of them in a playoff series

[Chinook]

yeah and he didn't lock up any of them in a playoff series

...

[apalisoc_9]

folks really saying Bowen was a more valuable offensive player?

[callo1]

Bowen everywhere except 2 on 1 transition defense. I don't think I have seen a player defend 2 on 1 breaks much better than Danny did...he just had a knack for it.

Bruce was just a beast defensively.

I miss the rash.