Saunders v Brown: All Saunders So Far

[JamStone]

Who's following him? I'm at a spurs board discussing a common opponent for our teams. I'd say its a lot worse suddenly becoming a "fan" because a a guy is on your team. Lemme guess, Piston fan always admired Flip from afar, right? GTFO with that "your bitter bc he's gone so now you hate him" routine. If you knew a damn thing about this message board or me, which most regular's here do, you'd know i've pined for flip's dismissal for years due to his lackluster defensive approach. I'm sure its a novel idea for you and your buddies in here. GASP! Not falling in line with everything your team does?

Did you just hit the "quote" button without reading what I wrote? I said it specifically myself that I wanted Larry Brown to return, and I''d rather have Terry Porter than Flip, yet you want to categorize Pistons fan as Flip apologists? Reading is fundamental.

Not being a certain nuclear power plant employee of Springfield? Piston's fans dismissal of Flip's failures is akin to TMac fans making fun of KG for his streak of first round exits. You havn't been there to experience what i have. Since Dumars is the demi-god of evaluation coaches, why was Flip a backup plan? I mean, you seem to think that the pistons we see in meaningless games are going to be like this in postseason. If so, why did Dumars wait for LB to leave?

Who's dismissing Flip's failures? What failures has he really exhibited SIX GAMES into his Piston coaching career? You gotta do better than that. If and when Flip makes major mistakes or demonstrates visible flaws in his coaching and mangement, many Pistons fans will be willing to criticize Flip. Since it is only SIX games into the season and seeing as the Pistons haven't lost yet, why should there be extreme criticisms right now? There are currently no major failures to dismiss.

As for Dumars, who ever said Flip was a back-up plan? I don't know that he was or was not. You don't know that he was or was not. When Larry was fired, he was the only main name out there rumored to succeed Larry. The media stated that Flip was the first choice. How is that a back-up plan? And, NBA GMs are not supposed to hire coaches before firing coaches. That's why Dumars waited for LB to leave. It's common practice in all employment practices that there be a JOB OPENING when you hire someone. Aren't you aware of that?

As for your GMing evaluation, lots of people wouldn't have done that in certain cir stances. It worked out in your case but its not much differnt than the T.O. trade, Antoine and Jwill deal. Talent wise its a huge upgrade, but its also about as dumb as getting rid of Mike James for Rafer. Can you see the spurs, with a roster already le worthy, taking a risk on Spewell? Fact is fact, Rasheed was a nut at portland, He was tamer under Brown. And the problem ISN"T the future, it was the risk of blowing up that year and wasting a chance.

That's your opinion, and you're en led to it. I'm under a different opinion that given the same cir stances Dumars had, nearly all other NBA GMs would have made the Rasheed trade, giving up the players and draft pick Dumars did. And, you stating that Rasheed was a nutcase in Portland is just as naive and misconstrued a notion as your contention that "Pistons fans dismissing the failures of Flip as a head coach." As far as I've read, Rasheed has always been highly regarded by his teammates and coaches. He's had run-ins with officials, had problems with the Portland media, and had some marijuana problems. That does not automatically make him a nutcase. Obviously it was not "dumb" since the trade netted an NBA championship. So, I don't think your point carries much merit.

Q: Does Dumars do that if he has Doug Collins, Mike Montgomery, Bill Musselman or Sidney Lowe as a head coach? I don't even need to hear your answer. As for VC and Snow, VC revived that NJ franchise and even this season was a steal for them. Snow has always been a solid, solid player.

Hypotheticals, huh? The point is Dumars DID NOT have Collins, Montgomery, Musselman, or Lowe as a head coach. Why change the facts? He had LB. And, the Rasheed acquisition worked out. I said if any other GM had the SAME cir stances as Dumars had. Now you want to change the facts with hypotheticals. Poor argument.

How good Vince Carter and Eric Snow has nothing to do with the argument. It's a counter-point to your notion that Larry Brown had player control. Dumars not relenting to Larry Brown's requests to get Vince and Eric counters your point that Larry had control over personnel. You missed the point. It has nothing to do with whether Vince or Eric are solid players.

Aren't some of the same questions arising under the new regime in Det. as the were in MN? Your starters are getting too many minutes, not going deeep into the bench like most teams do this early. A playoff rotation less than ten games in?

Remember why KG was always tired late in the game towards the end of the year.

Flip was the reason why KG was injured last year.

The starters minutes will be a big issue here if Flip doesn't use his bench more. But, that was one of the MAIN ISSUES with Larry Brown as well. So, it's not a fair critique on Flip just yet. In fact, Flip has already used the bench more in his 6 games as Pistons head coach than Larry Brown ever did. Hopefully, he will use the bench even more. I'll be the first to question Flip if the starters average in the high 30 mpg for the entire season.

How long have you known me ?

Perhaps I should have clarified. It was the first time IN THIS PARTICULAR THREAD AND DISCUSSION that you mentioned McHale as sharing the blame for the problems in Minnesota.

And, how necessary was it to use a derogatory insult on a messageboard? Would you also like to tell me how your daddy can beat up my daddy? Such a shame you have to ruin a decent debate with profanity.



sickdsm, I don't claim to know you. Nor have I perused the entire history of all your posts throughout this messageboard. Nor do I wish to do so. We were having a healthy debate about Flip Saunders as a coach, and a decent one, in my opinion. You don't have to get into a "you don't know me " and "people on this messageboard can vouch for me" tirade. Just argue your point. I can respect your opinion even if I disagree with it. Can you do the same?

[sickdsm]

you. There, we got that out of your way so you can forget about your debate rules. I tear down people with facts and a great memory. I drop plenty of insults because like Eminem, I just don't give a . Don't think its personal, it really isn't. I've been known to do that with EVERYONE on a losing end of my argument. The problem with you is this.

"I can respect your opinion even if I disagree with it."

I don't have an opinion here, i've backed up everything with history and facts. Your the only one spouting opinions. What the do you know about how Flip manages his team during the playoffs? What about how he fatigues' his players? You don't. I do. Go read an AP story about how it wasn't Flips fault he continually overplayed certain players in the regular season. Then go read about how when of the most physcially fit player in the NBA is fatigued a few games into the regular season.

"First of all, Saunders noticed that Ben Wallace was especially fatigued playing in Portland on the back end of back-to-back games. Saunders' plan for Tuesday is to bring Milicic in early, in the first quarter, to give Wallace a few extra minutes of rest. "Darko's going to get back in there," Saunders said. "He had some bad matchup situations (against Phoenix and Portland)." Saunders said Milicic has remained diligent and productive in practice, so there was nothing punitive about his lack of playing. "No, he's been good," Saunders said. "It's just how the games have gone. We need to get Ben some rest. He was really tired in Portland. So, we will get Darko in a little earlier." Detroit News


Flip is a react coach. He waits to see what you will do then trys to fix it. He doesn't see things ahead of their time.

"As for Dumars, who ever said Flip was a back-up plan? I don't know that he was or was not. You don't know that he was or was not. When Larry was fired, he was the only main name out there rumored to succeed Larry. The media stated that Flip was the first choice. How is that a back-up plan? And, NBA GMs are not supposed to hire coaches before firing coaches. That's why Dumars waited for LB to leave. It's common practice in all employment practices that there be a JOB OPENING when you hire someone. Aren't you aware of that?"

ialwayslovedthatone.

Pretend i'm Dave Chappele for a second. "Rick Carslile !"

Two years ago. Quit pretending that Caslile was a crappy coach. Last years debacle after the thugs in Detroit tore the roster apart in Indy he juggled a uva act there. Also quit pretending that Brown was fired. He held all the cards and you know it. He decided he wanted to be in NY even though he had a contract. But since you don't understand how the NBA works, coaches can and do manage behind the back deals quite frequently. Just hope that Joe Smith doesn't hold a fancy for the pistons when there over the cap with Flip around. Flip WAS the backup plan to Larry Brown's future, like i said, if Dumars wanted him around, he would have canned Larry's ass after the postseason right away.

[Vashner]

How many rings does Flip Saunders have?

[Pistons < Spurs]

How many rings does Flip Saunders have?

The same amount Larry Brown had before Joe Dumars gave him a job w/ the Pistons.

After this year, he'll have just as many as Larry Brown does.

[jochhejaam]

[QUOTE]

you.

Didn't bother to read the infantile garbage that followed that. Just thought I'd let you know that you get the a-hole of the year award Bart.

BTW, Jamstone's arguements are much more compelling than the homer views you attempt to present.

And now you become the one and only poster I've ever put on ignore. (The only one I've even considered for ignore) Your ignorance is more than I can bear.

Checked it out, it works!

[JamStone]

sickdsm,

You're a joke, man. I really think people like you who have to have this James Dean, rebel type, I don't give a damn, at ude to make them feel cool ON THE INTERNET must have some sort of insecurity issues. Who compares himself to Eminem??? Who needs to gas himself up and tell people that he has a great memory?? Listen, it's all cool and whatever if you need to swear and put down people ON THE INTERNET in order to re-affirm your self-esteem as a smart person. You make some decent points sometimes, but that doesn't mean you're always right.

"I don't have an opinion here, i've backed up everything with history and facts. Your the only one spouting opinions."

You take past history and apply it to a different set of cir stances, that's still a subjective opinion that those same results will occur in those DIFFERENT set of cir stances. I said it many posts ago, but I'll reiterate that people can learn from their mistakes. People can change their ways. People who don't learn from past history are doomed to repeat it. If Flip hasn't learned from his experiences in Minnesota, then we will have a problem. But, I'm hoping he has learned and willing to see how it plays out ... for now.

Let's say you had a girlfriend who hated when you called her "stupid." So, anytime you called her "stupid," she would kick you in the nuts. Your logic that Flip will make the same mistakes in Detroit as he did in Minnesota would lend me to believe that after getting kicked in the nuts NINE times, the TENTH time you called her stupid, you would still not protect your nuts.


I stated earlier if Flip continues to play the starters heavy minutes, many Pistons fans including myself will have a problem with it. It's SIX GAMES INTO THE REGULAR SEASON!! The starters here are that good. While implementing a new system, Flip has ridden the starters a little longer than he has wanted to. He's also had three blow-out games in the first six that allowed him to play the starters all in the low 30 minutes per game average, most of them well below that.

KG is an NBA superstar. Look at Allen Iverson's minutes during the course of the regular season. Look at Kobe Bryant's minutes, Tracy McGrady's, Amare Stoudemire's. Superstars in great condition log heavy minutes. Did KG's minutes per game drop when McHale took over as coach? Should Flip have played KG fewer minutes? Maybe. But, can you say to a certifiable fact that it was solely his heavy minutes that led to his knee injuries? How about nine years in the NBA? How about this past summer was the first time Kevin Garnett really worked out to bulk up?


"Pretend i'm Dave Chappele for a second. 'Rick Carslile !'

Two years ago. Quit pretending that Caslile was a crappy coach."

I don't know why you even mention Rick Carlisle. I didn't even talk about Carlisle in any of my posts.

And, you can believe whatever you want about Larry Brown. You can believe he held all the cards in Detroit. You can believe he wasn't fired. You can try to preach how you know how things work in the NBA. You can flash your NBA elite card all you want. It's fine. It's whatever. Your song and dance gets old like a Rolling Stones reunion tour.

[sickdsm]

I could care less about joche, how many times have you said that your not going to read my stuff?

Everyone knows that LB was picking and choosing almost ANY job he wanted, whether it was Cleveland, NY, Detroit or even Sacramento. The only reason he forced Dumars to do something about it was for money issues. Get out of Det. and see what everyone else sees. Seriously, do you get ESPN, FSN, internet radio there? Shut the local morning show off and tune into what others have to say.

The reason i mentioned Rick Caslile was this.

"As for Dumars, who ever said Flip was a back-up plan? I don't know that he was or was not. You don't know that he was or was not. When Larry was fired, he was the only main name out there rumored to succeed Larry. The media stated that Flip was the first choice. How is that a back-up plan? And, NBA GMs are not supposed to hire coaches before firing coaches. That's why Dumars waited for LB to leave. It's common practice in all employment practices that there be a JOB OPENING when you hire someone. Aren't you aware of that?"

Doesn't take a genius for someone to realize that i'm talking about how Dumars fired Rick even though he was a good coach and they would have been happy with him but Larry was available. If Dumars wanted Flip he would have done the same to Larry right after his shenanigans

I certainly don't understand what KG bulking up has to do with last years injury. Bulking up should be harder on the knee. KG has always been in phenomanal shape. What's the coorelation there?


Your logic about getting kicked in the nuts is just plain nuts. What the makes you think that if i didn't learn the first NINE times that the tenth time is the charm? Seriously? Why didn't he learn from his mistakes before? Trust me, i'm used to the MN sports scene. With the Gopher and Viking fans, i'm used to hearing your same arguments about "Wait'll next year" Are you a Cubby fan?


But i'm sorry about missing this gem.

"Hypotheticals, huh? The point is Dumars DID NOT have Collins, Montgomery, Musselman, or Lowe as a head coach. Why change the facts? He had LB. And, the Rasheed acquisition worked out. I said if any other GM had the SAME cir stances as Dumars had. Now you want to change the facts with hypotheticals. Poor argument."

I think Dumars is a fine GM. We're talking about Flip Saunders here, he's the variable. My point was that if you change the coach (go back to algebra if you don't understand how variables work), Dumars, along with any other GM, would rarely pull the trigger on that deal.

"poor argument"

You said it best. You also said why change the facts then continue to talk about what ifs about other gms.

You REALLY don't need to be setting me up for these. The spur fans here already think very little of Flips playoff coaching to begin with, your not helping matters.

[THE X-FACTOR]

sickdsm you got , pretty sad really you are a off stop trying to dig yourself out of your hole

[Lurks-a-lot]

Actually a pretty good debate on booth sides (minus the random blow up by sick, did you all of all sudden take his argument personally???).

I particular liked Sick's argument that Rasheed wouldn't have been a piston if it wasn't for LB. At first I shrugged it off thinking along those same lines as JamStone that any Gm in the league would have made that trade but to be honest Sick has a valid point in my opinion for two reasons.

A.) We all know that Brown wanted Sheed, and probally constantly requested Dumars to see if he could possibly find a trade for him. So after Rasheed was traded to Atlanta Dumars saw an opportunity to get him with little loss to the pistons main roster. It wasn't as the Hawks called up and said hey do you want Rasheed for basically nothing, of course any GM would do that trade but without LB it may have never been set in motion. But who knows?

B.) As Sick said "Rasheed was in the middle of his nutcase era. Its like second guessing T.O.'s trade and saying no other team would have done it then. Potentially tear apart a contender that relies on teamwork for a chance at a nutball who may or may not be around the next year? ", which is true or at least similar to my view of Rasheed pre-Pistons. The reason why Dumars pulled the trigger/ had faith in Rasheed was because of Larry Brown. Larry Brown had spent a lot of time together with Sheed and had a keen interest because of the North Carolina connection, they were pretty close and because of that Joe knew that Larry could keep Rasheed in control, thus making that trade much easier.

Without Larry who knows what happens and what Joe does, but with out LB I don't see that deal for sure going down.

As for what the main thing you two arguing about I don't really understand. Sick is making arguments that Brown is a much better coach then Saunders but I don't think anyone was ever arguing that point or disagrees with that. Brown is a great coach, Saunders is a.... no one really knows. I will say this though in closing some coaches style and personalites fit better with certain teams and I think Saunders although definitely not a proven great coach fits the Pistons team needs, thus possibly making them a better team. Does that mean that Saunders is a better coach then Larry Brown absolutely not. The team just needed a breathe of fresh air and Saunders being alot more lose and relaxed with his teams is what this veteran squad needed.

Just my 2 cents....


P.S JamStone what Pistons forum do you post at?

[Marcus Bryant]

Flip Saunders is well on his way to another November championship.

[Lurks-a-lot]

I hope not, but it's really impossible for me to argue that his "coaching success" this early in the season is any different when he coached with the wolves and lost in the first round of the playoffs.

None the less at least it teases me with the idea that because were the only undefeated team in the NBA were the best team in the NBA. But we all know that the Spurs our the team to beat and until/if you guys lose the rings then you our the Best team in the NBA.

[JamStone]

sickdsm,

Rick Carlisle is a moot point. And, even if what you said about Carlisle is true, it has little to do with the argument we were having about Larry Brown controlling personnel.

You want to argue that since the firing of Rick Carlisle happened immediately after the end of the season in 2003 and the firing of Larry Brown took a few weeks longer after the end of the 2005 season, that that clearly strates that Larry Brown "held all the cards," fine. Believe that. If that's your best argument why Flip will fail in Detroit, because Larry Brown held the cards in Detroit, then all I will say is that is not only a stretch of an argument, but one of the most irrelevent stretches to make a point I've argued against.

I certainly don't understand what KG bulking up has to do with last years injury. Bulking up should be harder on the knee. KG has always been in phenomanal shape. What's the coorelation there?

I guess you are unaware that when a person "bulks up" and works out, he is also able to work out his LEGS. Just because an athlete bulks up and gains weight, it doesn't mean he only works out his upper body. Any good weight training program--and I would suspect Kevin Garnett followed some type of program with guidance from some physical trainers--would include weight training to work out the leg muscles in order to give the bulk a more proportionate shape and strength to support the added muscle weight in the upper body. Maybe you would tend to believe bulking up would only encompass bench-pressing and curls. And, if Kevin Garnett did have problems with his knees last year, I would hope he and his trainers would have focused on exercises that would strengthen those knees. "Doesn't take a genius for someone to realize that."

Your logic about getting kicked in the nuts is just plain nuts. What the makes you think that if i didn't learn the first NINE times that the tenth time is the charm? Seriously?

Well, because he is in a different environment, under different cir stances, with a better team, and better management. The whole "nuts" example is more tongue-in-cheek than anything. I still maintain that people learn from their past mistakes.

If Flip doesn't learn from those mistakes, I have said it a few times already, I will be upset with Flip and criticize the decisions he makes that I feel hurt the team. But, right now, Flip is the head coach. As a fan, I can't change that. And, as a fan, I will give him an opportunity to prove himself before I make harsh judgmental critiques of his coaching style SEVEN GAMES INTO THE SEASON. You want to belabor the fact that Flip will make these monumental mistakes that will hurt this ballclub. My only retort has been that I'm going to wait and see if that happens. I already said that if he does, I'll be sure to bash him for those mistakes.

I think Dumars is a fine GM. We're talking about Flip Saunders here, he's the variable. My point was that if you change the coach (go back to algebra if you don't understand how variables work), Dumars, along with any other GM, would rarely pull the trigger on that deal.

sickdsm,

It's becoming very evident that you don't know how to follow even your own argument. Flip is not the variable. The discussion about Joe Dumars pulling off the Rasheed trade was SPECIFICALLY directed towards YOUR argument that Larry Brown had player control in Detroit. Your point was NEVER about the chances of Dumars making the Rasheed trade if Flip was the coach. It was about Larry Brown and how he was the one who made the call to trade for him.

You can state all you want how you said Dumars doesn't make that trade if the head coach was someone else. That does not refute my contention that had almost any other NBA GM had the same cir stances Dumars had, most of them would have made the trade as well. That includes having Larry Brown as coach, that includes giving up the players and the draft pick they used in the trade, that includes having the type of veteran and professional players on the team, that includes everything.

My "what-if" argument about replacing Joe Dumars with any other GM speaks straight to the point about whether Larry Brown pulled the trigger on the deal. It refutes that notion by saying almost anyone else would have done it, so Larry Brown was not the deciding factor. Your "what-if" argument replacing Larry Brown with any other coach does not speak right to the point of the argument, because it changes the facts under which Joe Dumars made the decision to make the trade. I'm sorry if you don't understand that logic. I thought that it didn't "take a genius for someone to realize that."

You REALLY don't need to be setting me up for these. The spur fans here already think very little of Flips playoff coaching to begin with, your not helping matters.

Why you continually want to mention your clout and rep with Spurs fans to validate yourself as a smart poster, I don't know why. I often unfairly think zelous fans of other NBA teams don't really have much intelligent to say when they are so obviously biased. "your [YOU'RE] not helping matters."

[jochhejaam]

How many rings does Flip Saunders have?

If he would have had the Spurs talent over the last 9 years I would say he would have at least 3 and possibly 5 by now.
























j/k, that would be quite incendiary if I left it at that, ay?

[JamStone]

How many championships does Jerry Sloan have? Yet, he is still regarded as one of the best coaches in the game, even though he had two hall of famers and couldn't win it all. It's widely accepted that even with Stockton and Malone, Sloan did not have enough pieces or talent to overcome the might Chicago Bull with Michael Jordan.

The teams Flip lost to when he had great teams were the Shaquille O'Neal Lakers, the Tim Duncan Spurs, that great Portland Trailblazers team, and the Dallas Mavericks with the three headed Finley-Nash-Dirk monster.

The only team any rational person could argue should have been beaten by the T-Wolves was that Dallas Mavs, and that's arguable at best. All the other teams were better teams. Even if you go back to when Minnesota was still too young to be a legit contender, they lost to Hakeem Olajuwan's and Charles Barkley's Houston Rockets and Gary Payton's Seattle Sonics.

The championship argument is silly, old, and tired because only three current coaches have championship rings: Pop, Larry, and Phil.

So, is every other coach in the NBA bad? If that's your argument, fine. I guess only Pop, Larry, and Phil should be NBA coaches ... and no one else.

Championship contending teams should only consider Lenny Wilkins, Rudy Tomjonovich, Jack Ramsay, Chuck Daly, Pat Riley, or KC Jones to coach their team. That should be a league enforced rule then. Get it done.

[jochhejaam]

I honestly don't see any less defensive intensity under Flip. The only difference so far has been the offensive output (except tonight). Looking good Flip and Pistons!

Meanwhile, Larry's Knicks fall to 2-7.

[jochhejaam]

Flip's Pistons 9-1 after an nice win over the Nuggets and LB's Knicks 3-8 after another embarassing loss, this time to the Bobcats 108-95.

Early assessment is that the Pistons can score big this year and still play stifling defense.


The Knicks, to this point, have been disappointing, I'm sure the team and fans hoped for something more than a 3-8 start.

(ES, what's the new projected season record for the Pistons?

[SA210]

Is Flip smarter than Pop in a seven game series to make critical decisions or plays in the NBA Finals? I think not. If we play Detroit in the Finals, it will be Flip vs. Pop. I say,

Pop > Flip

[JamStone]

Coaching matters to a certain degree, but championships are ultimately won by the players. Pop might be a better coach than Flip, but that doesn't necessarily mean that a team coached by Pop will automatically and always win a seven game series against a team coached by Flip. If you really believe that, you take away a lot of credit away from Tim Duncan, David Robinson, Manu Ginobili, etc.

[SA210]

^^^No, I take nothing away from them. I'm just saying Pop would have that Championship experience when it comes to it as a coach.

[jochhejaam]

Insider Dave D'Alessandro weighs in on the topic:

Pistons are even better without Brown

By Dave D'Alessandro - SportingNews


So it's a one-point game last week, Detroit at Houston, and the thing that strikes you most is this: Everything the Pistons do in white-knuckle time just reeks of arrogance.

They throw it in to Rasheed Wallace on the left box, and he scores against overmatched Stromile Swift. At the other end, Ben Wallace pokes out Yao Ming's dribble to force a turnover.

Then, Take 2: Rasheed on the left block again, scoring against single coverage. Down the other way, Ben blocks Stro's jumper.

Finally, Take 3: Sheed in the post again (Memo to Jeff Van Gundy: Catch on yet?) for another shamelessly easy fadeaway on poor Stro. At the other end, Ben draws charge against Yao and fouls him out.

Never mind that the Rockets had Detroit playing their tempo all night or that they were within one at the four-minute mark. In just 120 seconds, the Wallaces took over, the lead went from one to eight and the Pistons had their eighth straight victory.

Almost every night this season, they've authored a game story such as this. It's almost as if the Pistons are toying with teams, but what they are going through, really, is a natural evolution: Virtually all of their players are in their primes, and given their natural tendency toward unselfishness, the team is also in its prime.

Of course, the following night at Dallas, the Pistons celebrated the one-year anniversary of The Palace brawl by getting mugged in public, but that can happen to anyone. It just makes you feel sorry for the next team that has to play Detroit.

The bottom line -- for most people, anyway -- is this: "The way Flip Saunders has them playing, I think that they are all playing better," Celtics forward Paul Pierce says. "I think Larry Brown held them back."

<snip>

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slu...=tsn&type=lgns

[NuGGeTs-FaN]

Brown is over rated and Flip was just used as a scapegoat for a crappy minnesota team (as so many coaches are).

Minny sucks, Pistons are playing great..........suck it up and get over it

[sickdsm]

I could care less if i come off as an asshole, to you, to Kori, to LJ, to anyone. I'll make my points the same if i'm talking to Bill Clinton or Sequ. When you understand that you'll understand me. When you understand me, you'll get past the "what a ing asshole!" and think, "but his points are very dead on", as one poster here already has. In no way was i ever comparing the players on the wolves, pistons, or expecially the knicks for that matter. When you guys watch a seven game series with a quality team, you'll understand what i mean. Watch how during a 20 second timeout Flips offensive play he draws up will consistanlty flop against defensive schemes. Knowing what a woman's heart desire's and getting some ass are two completley different things, just like intangibles in coaches.

Most of all, the difference between a team or a player being overachievers or them being pretty good is consistancy. Sure, guys like Wally, Hassell, Laphonso Ellis, Hudson, etc... overachieved and more important there teams did at times. But if Flip had these guys performing beyond there skillset (which really is overachieving) then they would have been considered good to great players under him eventually. When the game is taken out of the players hands somewhat during the playoffs, slowed down, every possesion more valued, more coaching is done, his teams have lost. Funny, i see monthly how Allen Iverson is praising Larry Brown as a coach and trying to mentor guys like Marbury or most recently Nate Robinson to listen to him and he'll make you a better player. The ONLY coach i've seen players do that to recently have been Popovich. I don't remember Marbury or Isiah Ryder calling Ebi or sitting down with Kandi or Loren Woods telling them that Flip knows whats up.

Jam: this is a brief summary, read it a couple times, ok?

With or without player control, With Brown as coach and Dumars as GM Det. MAYBE does that trade

With or w/out player control, with Mitc , jeff van gundy, rick adelman, flip saunders the NEVER do that trade.

Get it? Whether or not any of the coaches are whispering in the GM's ear to do that trade, Det doesn't if the pieces around it (disciplinarian) aren't there.

[jochhejaam]

Knicks @ Pistons Friday Dec. 2nd.
Normally not a biggie on the schedule but takes on added meaning with LB at the Knicks helm.
It was big for most of us Piston fans when LB became our coach and we played against the Pacers with former coach Carlisle.
Although the coaches wouldn't publicly say it the game must take on extra meaning as Saunders and the Pistons players and fans will want to show everyone that Joe made the right move in replacing Brown.
We'll sure to be heavy favorites but games are won on the court, I believe it's being aired on ESPN.

[JamStone]

I could care less if i come off as an asshole, to you, to Kori, to LJ, to anyone.

Your words, not mine. And, since you yourself consider yourself one, there isn't much else to say regarding what people think of you.

I'll make my points the same if i'm talking to Bill Clinton or Sequ. When you understand that you'll understand me. When you understand me, you'll get past the "what a ing asshole!" and think, "but his points are very dead on", as one poster here already has.

sickdsm,

To me, you are an unapologetic, short-sighted, pseudo intellect. And, that's not meant as smack talk or a plain insult. That's honestly how I view you. You have tunnel vision in your arguments. And, you are unable to see a different perspective. If you read my responses carefully, you'll find I don't always disagree with what you are saying. It's just that I respond at all that you take some degree of pleasure in trying to refute things that don't even really rebut your own arguments. You belabor the topic of Flip's mistakes in Minnesota and guarantee they'll happen again. When I respond that people can learn from their mistakes, and that if Flip repeats his mistakes, then Pistons fans will get upset and make their criticisms, and that I'm merely being patient to see if those things in fact happen, you still don't understand my point-of-view and respond how wrong I am. It's kind of funny. In general, I've just said I hope Flip has learned from his mistakes, that he's in a different situation here in Detroit with better management and better players, and as a Pistons fans, I'm willing to give him a little time to show us how he'll coach this team. Do you understand that?

In no way was i ever comparing the players on the wolves, pistons, or expecially the knicks for that matter. When you guys watch a seven game series with a quality team, you'll understand what i mean. Watch how during a 20 second timeout Flips offensive play he draws up will consistanlty flop against defensive schemes.

I'll watch for it, with great expectations and unabridged enthusiasm. And, I'll monitor every little play Flip calls. And, I'll remember your pseudo-wise forecasts and be in awe of your great soothsayer skills ... or lack thereof, since no one knows what will really happen then. Different team. Different players. Different organization. Different management. Different ownership. Different history. How did the Wolves make it to the Western Conference Finals in 2004 with Flip's history of bad coaching? Blind luck, I guess. It couldn't possibly be that he learned from his mistakes or that the players got better.

Knowing what a woman's heart desire's and getting some ass are two completley different things, just like intangibles in coaches.

And, knowing your brain from your ass is a valuable tool, but what the does either even have to do with anything we've been talking about? That's a of a completely irrelevant and worthless analogy. But, ok.

Most of all, the difference between a team or a player being overachievers or them being pretty good is consistancy. Sure, guys like Wally, Hassell, Laphonso Ellis, Hudson, etc... overachieved and more important there teams did at times. But if Flip had these guys performing beyond there skillset (which really is overachieving) then they would have been considered good to great players under him eventually. When the game is taken out of the players hands somewhat during the playoffs, slowed down, every possesion more valued, more coaching is done, his teams have lost.

Ever heard of Phil Jackson? How about the great Red Auberach? How many championships did either win without Russell, Michael Jordan, and Shaq? Remember the 1994-96 Chicago Bulls? How many championships did Pat Riley win in New York and Miami? Chuck Daly with New Jersey and Orlando? Rudy Tomjanovich looks rather pedestrian as a coach after Hakeem lost a step. You must sooner or later realize and acknowledge that it is ultimately on the players to win games, playoff series, and championships. Having a great coach can put a team over the top. But, if a team is just not good enough, it's just not good enough. Could Sam Mitc win with Shaq and Kobe in their respective primes? Maybe not, but I wouldn't be surprised if he could.

Funny, i see monthly how Allen Iverson is praising Larry Brown as a coach and trying to mentor guys like Marbury or most recently Nate Robinson to listen to him and he'll make you a better player. The ONLY coach i've seen players do that to recently have been Popovich. I don't remember Marbury or Isiah Ryder calling Ebi or sitting down with Kandi or Loren Woods telling them that Flip knows whats up.

You can look at all of my responses on this thread, and I guarantee you that not once did I say Flip Saunders was a better coach than Larry Brown. You'll never read a statement by me that Larry Brown is a bad coach or that Saunders is the best coach. You'll also find that I wrote I wanted Larry Brown to return this year, and that my second choice was in fact Terry Porter. But, now that Flip is the Detroit coach, I will support him until he does something that will indicate I shouldn't support him. If he warrants harsh criticism, I'll be more than happy to state it.

Jam: this is a brief summary, read it a couple times, ok?

With or without player control, With Brown as coach and Dumars as GM Det. MAYBE does that trade

With or w/out player control, with Mitc , jeff van gundy, rick adelman, flip saunders the NEVER do that trade.

LOL! You're pretty silly. You don't read my responses, do you? Larry Brown WAS the coach of the Pistons. And, his presence made that trade more logical, yes. But, do you remember the things the Pistons gave up for a talent like Rasheed Wallace? Chucky Atkins, Bobby Sura, Zeljko Rebraca and a late first round pick. Even without Larry Brown, the Pistons make that trade. And, most GMs would too. You'd be silly to argue that.

Get it? Whether or not any of the coaches are whispering in the GM's ear to do that trade, Det doesn't if the pieces around it (disciplinarian) aren't there.

We're in disagreement. Pistons make that trade because they gave up very little to get one of the better power forwards in the league.

[whottt]

Minny always got off to fast starts with Flip...usually to be followed by a second half fade. I think the reason his teams always start off fast is because he focuses on offense and that's generally part of the game the players want to focus on as well...so he gets his teams ready to play by going down the path of least resistance if you will...but it always catches up with him in the second half, when the novelty wears off and the other teams round into shape...and all the defenses get cranked up.

My prediction:Pistons will fade in the second half and will get eliminated in the first round if they have to face Indy, Mia or NJ.