Where's timvp when you need him?
Absolutamente! And, well said (the whole thing), BTW!
NONE of the current Spurs would be where they are today without Avery. That is a fact.
How do you figure that? He's not supposed to ever work in the NBA any more in his whole life if he can't work for the Spurs? Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I think what Avery is doing now is a tribute to his years on the Spurs and what he learned from Pop.
if you think getting a huge head and thinking he was above the team is Spurs standard for excellence, you are clearly mistaken. AJ was a mediocer point guard at best, he had one good year and that was it. It is mainly AJ's fault that the Spurs were eliminated in every year except 99 from the playoffs. All the other point gaurds in the league made AJ look silly especially an older John Stocton. AJ does not deserve to have his number retired. But probably will cause lame ass fans who remember with there hearts and not their heads (see Don Hairless for prime example of these types of sheep/fans) he probably will. If that happens I will sit through the entire ceremony in protest.
I do not wish to see AJ's number retired as hitting the winning shot in the 99 finals is not enough to warrent it. And since AJ doesnt have any other outstanding accomplishments he should not have his number retired. (besides there is no room for it or AJs enormous head). You can't retire someone number if they have never been an all-star, especially if they coach one of your rivals.
hey clueless name one player on the current team that played with AJ other than Tim. Guess what your statement is so full of you need boots and a nose plug just to read it.
Only a clueless person would ask a clueless question like that. Where did I say that anyone on the Spurs (other than Tim) played with AJ?
Please get a clue before calling others clueless. And just because you don't understand a statement, does not mean it's "full of ".
Is rudeness/stupidity a daily requirement for you?
so then please explain to me how every Spurs player owes where they are to AJ. I guess my BSEE from UTSA never covered this round about statement.
"NONE of the current Spurs would be where they are today without Avery. That is a fact."
what the does this statement mean?
Sean Elliott shouldn't even be up in the rafters, much less Avery. Yeah, he was a fan favorite, but cmon, to be up there with Iceman and Admiral, it just takes away from their glory. I'm surprised that we didn't have a picket line when Van Exel chose his jersey number.
oh no......I hope Malik does not retire for another 20 years so everyone forgets about him and a repeat of this conversation does not happen.
I have nothing against Avery, and I don't really mind either way, but I probably lean more to not letting it get retired, only because it seems like cheating to get more banners up, it needs to come naturally, and in the direction we are headed, it will.
With that said, I do believe that Avery is the reason why we won it all in 99, I'm not just talking about the finals shot, but about his motivational skills. But to me it's like retiring Horry's number, although I respect him, it just doesn't seem to fit, unless he plays with us another 5 years for another 5 ships. If that happens retire every player that played in that span, even training camp bodies and 10 day contract guys.
Out of curiosity, anyone know off hand how many times Avery signed, to come here, and how many times we traded for him? Was he a free agent when he went to Dallas? I vaguely remember talk about the Spurs wanting to get him again.
Um...geez...do you HAVE an imagination? Let's see...without Avery...that the Spurs would not have won the first Championship (and they would probably not have won the two additional ones without that first one). That the Spurs, AS A TEAM (if you can grasp the concept) would not be where they are right now. Timmy might have/most probably would have signed with another team when he was a FA. David may have (probably would have) retired earlier than he did, especially if Tim Duncan wasn't a Spur. Manu would probably be playing somewhere else, and so would Tony (more likely, no one would have heard of either of them, still); Oberto would still be in Europe. For sure Michael Finley and Nick Van Exel would not be here; the only reason they are here now is because they want a ring/the opportunity to play with Tim Duncan (even if they do not show that on their list of reasons for signing with the Spurs). , we may not even still have Pop as a coach if they had not won that first Championship.
Generally speaking...I hate people who make being an asshole into a vocation.
That's what thought you meant. Again this is not a fact it is your bull opinion. AJ was the least person in 99 championship team starting line up that helped win the championship. it could be said that any other top 20 PG in the league could have also jointed the other 4 for the championship run. JJ contributed more than AJ.
As for all those other things that happened afterward, AJ had less to do with the success than your brain cells did when typing your lame ass explanation.
I dont hate AJ. I just don't blindly believe he is the end all to be all like some of you sheeps. Go back to believing that Saddam had WMDs and leave those of us who know what reality is discuss the truth with open minds.
If you cant handle the truth maybe when you grow up you will be lucky enough to no longer be blind and be able to look at things more objectively when making observations or statements.
And what do you call what you post??????
THAT is the point I'm trying to make. Just because someone disagrees with you does not make them stupid. We are all en led to our OPINIONS. But, that's all they are. Even yours.
Avery Johnson is also the man responsible for the rise in housing costs and he invented nano-technology.
Three championship rings=Tim Duncan arriving with the team, not Avery Johnson's exceptional point guard work which didn't seem to get us anywhere before that. So other than that we need to retire the jersey cuse he was a standup guy who did community work, well if that's the standard we got to retire every freakin spur maybe beside Rodman.
my opinion is that AJ had nothing to due with the success of the Spurs after he left, that is a fact. He wasnt here, so he in no way contributed to the success of the 03 and 05 teams (that is a fact).
If AJ was so great how come he never got the Spurs to the championship in all the other years he was our PG (fact). It's because he always got owned in the playoffs by all star PGs.
You do know that Tim Duncan was real happy when AJ was released as a free agent. You did know that AJ had pretty much worn out his welcome when it came to TD didnt you?
You need to show some real facts that he did to argue your point. If and buts are not facts.
No, that was Admiral Grace Hopper.
The only thing that is fact there is that those are your opinions.
You have not shown any facts here, either, but that doesn't seem to be bothering you.
I'm done here. You will never see that your opinion is not worth more than anyone else's opinion. You cannot agree to disagree.
^^^
thats the best thing about argueing with an idiot, they keep proving your point.
are you serious??? What the are you talking about??? are you deranged? How... when... why... oh forget it. This post is so stupid its signature worthy!
Not really. Are you?
At least I don't call people "idiots" or "deranged" because they see things differently than me.
I was just trying to make sense out of you post man. You made absolutely none! I don't get it, were you high when you typed that post?
Get off the crack dude. You speak of facts, where the are they in this piece of nonsense.
Thought I'd throw this into the mix:
Johnny Moore career stats (with SA):
80-81: 07.4 ppg - 04.5 apg - 50-23 Spurs record (w/Ice and Silas)
81-82: 09.4 ppg - 09.6 apg - 48-34 (w/Ice and Mitc )
82-83: 12.2 ppg - 09.8 apg - 53-29 (w/Ice, Mitc , and Gilmore)
83-84: 10.1 ppg - 09.6 apg - 37-45 (w/Ice, Mitc , and Gilmore)
84-85: 12.8 ppg - 10.0 apg - 41-41 (w/Ice, Mitc , and Gilmore)
85-86: 13.0 ppg - 09.0 apg - 35-47 (w/Mitc , Robertson, and Gilmore)
86-87: 08.6 ppg - 04.5 apg - 28-54 (w/Robertson)
Divisional Crowns: 3
NBA Championships: 0
Looking at those stats and comparing them to Ice, Drob, Silas, and even Elliott, you have to wonder why his jersey is in the rafters. Out of those 7 seasons, he led the team in assists per game four times, in steals five times, but never led in any other statistical category.
I mean, why the did we retire Moore's number, but not Mike Mitc 's?! He was a thousand times better that Johnny ing Moore.
Now A.J.'s stats (selected seasons):
92-93: 08.7 ppg - 7.5 apg
94-95: 13.4 ppg - 8.2 apg
95-96: 13.1 ppg - 9.6 apg
96-97: 10.5 ppg - 6.8 apg
97-98: 10.2 ppg - 7.9 apg
99-00: 11.2 ppg - 6.0 apg
Divisional crowns: 3
NBA Championships: 1
Focusing solely on the stats, A.J. appears to have been a slightly better scorer, and slightly worse passer. Obviously he didn't play the type of ridiculous D that Moore played, and obviously Moore couldn't lead the Spurs out of a paper bag.
Now we all know AJ doesn't have the statistical prowess of any other Spur who's had their jersey retired (although his numbers are similar to Moore's). But there's more to this honor than numbers alone. I think that point is self-evident, especially when you consider that Johnny Moore's 00 has been retired. I'm not sure if most people recognize that.
A.J. brought a whole slew of intangibles that don't show up in the box score. First and foremost, he was the undisputed leader of the team that brought a success-starved city its first ever professional sports championship. Everyone who was a Spurs fan then remembers that team, remembers all the wonderful parts about that season. Everyone remembers the 8-8 start, the amazing late season run, the absolute pounding of the Lakers, the Memorial Day Miracle, and A.J.'s championship-clinching shot. He was also the dominant personality on a team featuring two mild-mannered stars, a character that Spurs fans remember fondly.
If the Spurs retired number 6, it would not open the flood gates for a bunch of second-rate Spurs players. Depending on how you look at it, either those flood gates were already opened when 13 and 00 were retired, or the criteria for retirement is not as strigent as some of you seem to think.
So why should the Spurs retire A.J.'s jersey?
Here are some of the reasons people have posted:
- He was an essential part of the best team in Spurs history; AND
- He was an amazing motivator and leader, inspiring his teammates to give their best performances for several seasons; AND
- He was a charismatic, likeable, memorable player who spent ten years with the Spurs; AND
- He was a wonderful addition to the San Antonio community; AND
- He left a definite and indelible positive mark on the Spurs franchise and the city of San Antonio; AND
- He put up numbers were by no means paltry or insignificant, and in fact in some ways were better than the numbers put up by other Spurs retirees; AND
- Other past Spurs greats (i.e. DRob, Elliott, and Kerr) all think his jersey should be retired.
If these justifications aren't significant enough to retire his number, then Johnny Moore should have his jersey taken down and burned at center court. If these reasons don't warrant inclusion in the Spurs Pantheon, the honor is much less meaningful to me, and a large contingent of Spurs fans as well.
EDIT:
Here are some fun facts I forgot to mention in the original post. Avery is the Spurs all-time assist leader. Moore once had a game where he was 26-13-11-9 (that's point, assists, rebounds, and steals). Avery owned the Suns in the first round of the playoffs in 98, averaging 20 and 6. Johnny Moore almost died of "desert fever"...what the is that?
Last edited by conqueso; 11-28-2005 at 03:19 PM.
Thanks for the excellent, well-thought-out, and intelligent post, conqueso!
I've already said this in several of the umpteen other threads on this topic, but:
1. If it were up to me, the only retired jerseys would be Gervin, Silas, and 5-0. I'd consider Elliott down the road sometime.
2. Given that Moore's is retired (a decision I think management would take back if they could), you have to put AJ up there, too. Moore has set the minimum standard for the Spurs.
3. Both Mike Mitc and Larry Kenon deserve number retirement ahead of Moore, and probably ahead of AJ.
I whole-heartedly agree with that!
How bout we un-retire crappy numbers, lets have a fresh start
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