Reply With Quote
I can definitely agree with that
Lakers got slaughtered by Detroit that one year. Phil Jackson did that thing where if he didn't have overwhelming talent he just turtled.
I can definitely agree with that
He did have an overwhelming talent advantage that series. He also had kobe bryant who “prioritize winning over everything else” jacking shot after shot in an attempt to win the finals mvp. Even mr billups, who is uncontroversial his entire career, went on record to say their strategy was to let kobe shoot themselves out of the game. Lol. All that revised history about shaq being contained by the Wallace brothers when he shot something like 68% the entire series.
Kobe 100% threw the series for ego purposes. Wild how nobody talks about it today.
I don't remember if TD had to deal with it throughout the later half of his career. Can anyone confirm that? I remember he had it during the 2006 regular season and it was causing him a lot of issues, but come playoff time, TD was the best player in te entire playoffs up to the point we were eliminated (It never should have come to that as the officiating was dodgy as against the Mavs. Then you also had Pop running small ball when he hadn't done it all season, and also, even with Manu's foul on Dirk, TD still should have had two free throws as he was raked across the arms on the final possession of regulation from what I remember).
That front court really was definitely great defensively, but as mentioned, the Pistons did get a little luck in 2004, and as you said, they also benefitted from going against TD not being close to fully healthy in 2005. I think TD could have played even better had his ankles not been injured, so in a way, the Pistons were a little lucky in that regard. Not sure how hurt he was during that series, or what percentage he was operating at health wise, but he still played pretty darn well thought the series IMO. He was amazing in game 7 putting them all in foul trouble and really carrying the Spurs to the Championship. I don't remember hardly anyone expect Manu playing well (offensively) for the Spurs in that series (apart from Horry game 5)., so that wouldn't have helped either as the Pistons could put more attention on Tim.
As for Malone, didn't he miss most of the 2004 finals games? I don't remember. Was it only 1 game that he missed or multiple games? Pretty much if it wasn't for the dysfunction between Shaq and Kobe and Malone being injured, I think the Lakers would have won that series. I also think the Spurs could have beaten the 2004 Pistons too (I really shouldn't take anything away from them as they were a darn good team).
I also don't remember what happened in the ECF in 2005. Was it Wade that was injured? Was he hindered throughout the series Vs the Pistons?
Last edited by Ice009; 06-15-2023 at 11:00 AM.
Because they were all front-running Laker fans. Kobe would be top ten all time if basketball were an individual sport.
I agree! Timmy is a 5 time champion and KG a one hit wonder
Kobe redeemed himself in 09 and 10. But man 04-07 was ugly for him and most Stan’s act like it never happened. Dude purposefully lost them the finals (according to Phil Jackson himself) by trying ensure he shot more than Shaq. He ran Shaq outta town in 05 and missed the playoffs just so he could ball hog and average 35 a game. Quit in game 7 in 06 vs the Suns and complained about not having talent when again, he’s the one who ran out Shaq. And lost again in round 1 in 07.
Kobe had a ridiculous front line in those years -- Bynum, Odom, and an outright gift in Pau Gasol. He never won anything without a ridiculous front line.
He also had super clutch shooters and teammates who stepped up and made huge shots for his teams. Great stats guy, but almost never a difference maker.
Every all time great had clutch teammates that stepped up. I can’t think of one that didn’t. Maybe Bird? Anyways Kobe was more than just a stats guy. To say otherwise is hating to foolishness. He was dominant in the 01 and 02 WCFs and Finals. He kept the Lakers the 4th seed in 03 when Shaq refused to play bc of his toe injury. He played very well in 04 against us and then in the finals he threw the hissy fit.
In 08, his lone MVP year, he was dominant in the WC that year in the playoffs. Yeah he sucked in the finals but that series really proved they went as he went. Same in 09 and 10. He dominated the West. Yes he had a of a frontline in Pau, Bynum, Lamar and Metta. But if anybody recalls, Lamar really never had his head in basketball 100% and only Kobe could keep his lazy ass off drugs and in the gym. Metta was seen as a cancer and Kobe helped revive his career and Bynum was extremely childish and was a giant pussy against any type of physical play. He was also extremely immature.
From 01-04 and 08-10 was all time great from Kobe
Lol mmk ESPN.
01 kobe was clearly robin. He was comparable to Vince carter and tmac those years and I wouldn’t call those two all time greats. Iverson was clearly the better player in 01 and I wouldn’t even call iverson an all time great. The only difference is that kobe had shaq. 02 he played well against the likes of Steve smith in the playoffs being single teamed every game because shaq drew double and triple teams every time.
08 was the lifetime achievement award when cp3 had a better year and cp3 wasn’t an all time great, then got his pushed in by Pierce in the finals. 09 and 10 he was outplayed by Lebron, Chris Paul, Dwayne wade and d12. Even MVPau had better advanced stats than he did. Even Brandon Roy had an argument over him, stats wise.
Funny thing about kobe is that all the talk about him being a top 10/15 all time, there isn’t one single season he was clearly the best player in the league. Not one.
Jordan 91 to 98
bird mid 80s
magic late 80s
russell and chamberlain 60s
Jabbar 70s
Shaq had 00 and 01
Duncan had 02 and 03, arguably 04 and 05.
Lebron had late 00s all the way to most of 10s
Hakeem had 94 95
Moses had early 80s
Whats Kobe’s?
Lakerfan always overrated every player in purple and gold until Kobe, then Lakerfan becomes Kobefan and labors to minimize the contributions of every teammate he ever had, without whom he would have zero trips to the finals.
The amount of hating here is unreal. So Kobe isn’t even top 15? Is he top 20? Better be careful with stupid comments bc you have to actually know the league and its history in order to say that. So Durant is better than Kobe? He’s like 13. Steph is better than Kobe? Heck if you’re at 15-20 range then you’re in the Malone and KG level. Barkley was better than Kobe. I’m not even a Kobe fan (heck my profile started out as a troll of him getting injured) but sometimes I wonder if y’all actually watched the league back then.
Yes Shaq was better than Kobe this years. Duh. But the dude averaged 30 ppg was the leader in assists on the team, second in rebounds, and actually played defense. Unlike a Vince Carter (who literally averaged less in every category as the number 1 option). And AI played zero defense. And yes in Kobes later years he was wrongly put on all defensive nba teams. But not early in his career. He was great at it.
And in 2008 you think Chris Paul deserved the MVP? you must think Nash deserved his MVPs too over Shaq and Lebron bc Paul had similar stats to him. Kobe justly won the MVP. Chris Paul wasn’t better than him. And to on Kobe for getting his lunch eaten by Pierce but say nothing about your MVP Paul getting his pushed in during the second round is disingenuous.
So you’re mad bc Kobe wasn’t better than MJ? Wasn’t better than Duncan? And wasn’t better than Shaq or Lebron? Well no . Those are top 8 players of all time. I have Kobe 9th. I’m interested in your list now. Give me the top 20 since Kobe doesn’t make your top 15
2010 vs celtics was a hard fought series
Strawman, nothing related to what I said. Point is, what year was Kobe clearly the best player? I can't figure out any of the years he was the best player. And he is the only player with a seat at the top 10 that has that. I couldn't find a single year Durant was clearly the best player in a year either. Steph has one, maybe two years. Let's face it, Kobe was ranked top 10/15 strictly due to narratives, he was Pippen 3 out of the 5 les, and in the other two, somehow Pau Gasol led the team in WS. He had a history of throwing games to satisfy his own ego, he was highly inefficient with questionable shot selection his entire career. Hypothetically, if he spent his entire career in, say NJ, he wouldn't even sniff the top 20, and he did, because he had the best frontcourt more than half his career, which was actually the mismatches that put the Lakers over the top.
For all his dominance, he led the league in scoring, twice. He didn't lead the league in ANY per 36 min stats, ever. He never led the league in any per 100 possession stats, the only advanced stats he ever lead the league in was usage rate.
Agreed, Kobe was great as a defender, and he was fantastic one on one, no question. Neither Carter nor Iverson were top 10 players, they aren't even top 30 players by most count.
Chris Paul is not top 10 or 15 all time, either. His peak was comparable to Kobe's, and 08 showed it. CP3 led the league in assists and steals, while Kobe led in points. CP3 led the league in WS, OWS, w/48, while Kobe finished 4th, 5th, 8th. Paul also finished higher in BPM, OPBM, DPBM and VORP.
In 2008, the Lakers were 22-5 in the 27 games Pau Gasol was in, that is an 82% winning percentage and on track to win 67 games. Without Pau Gasol, they were 35-20 for a 64% winning percentage and on pace for 52 wins. And don't give me the bull crap about them getting their footing later in the season after Gasol joined, because after playing 19 games, Gasol was off for 9 games and the lakers were only 5-4 in those games for a winning percentage of 55%, the winning came back after Gasol was back. I am not saying the Lakers were Gasol's team, but Gasol was certainly the one with much more impact on winning that year.
I never said he shouldn't be top 20, I am just pointing out him being ranked that high is mostly narratives.
In no particularly order, players I would undoubtedly rank above Kobe:
Jordan
Lebron
Duncan
Magic
Bird
Russell
Wilt
Jabbar
Shaq
Hakeem
Moses (I admit I am probably the only one who would, but he was great)
Players I would rank along side Kobe:
Durant
Steph
Players who should be ranked along side Kobe, but people would get shat on for saying due to narratives:
Dirk
Jokic (recency bias)
Players who are below Kobe, but mostly due to cir stances:
Drexler
Wade
Barkley
Robinson
Karl Malone
KG
Havlicek
Pippen
Fancy offensive stat-padding and false narratives aside, there are a number of players you could swap onto those Laker teams and win more championships than they did with Kobe, just from their being better teammates and not driving coaches and teammates away.
Believe it or not, there are players who beat the Raptors without having to score 81 points.
I would definitely take a prime healthy Steph over a prime healthy Kobe. He creates more gravity on the court, and creates more harmony on the team. Steph's highs are higher-- three historic years in a row of 67, 73, & 67 wins-- and Kobe's lows are much lower-- multiple seasons of creating turmoil, losing, and being a me-first guy. Kobe's last two seasons are the best bad examples ever of an aging star taking terrible shots on awful teams, and freezing the development of young players.
Last edited by R. DeMurre; 06-16-2023 at 02:06 PM.
There are a number of players that would win more than 5 rings? Really? Bc in NBA history there are only (off the top of my head admittedly) 4 players who weren’t Bill Russell’s teammate that won more than 5 rings. That’s it. Also the last team to win more than 3 championships in a row was the Boston Celtics in the 60s. So how would they have won more? Believe it or not, it’s hard to win more than 5 championships. Believe it or not it’s hard to win 4 in a row.
If your argument is that he would’ve been suckyish had he stayed in Charlotte and not been so highly regarded then yeah I agree with you. Could he lead them to a le. Doubt it. Luck plays a factor. It does with everybody. I mean Duncan got Parker at the end of the 1st round and Gino at the end of the second. Pretty damn lucky. Heck if Doc allowed his wife aboard the plane, then Duncan wouldn’t have ended his career with all his accomplishments. How many championships does Tim win with a broken Grant Hill and a hurt back tmac and choker Doc Rivers as a coach? He wouldn’t be regarded as the best power forward of all time.
You go enough years and you forget about the bad of players. I get that Kobe had a lot of bad. But so did Magic. Dude was a coach killer and won an undeserved finals mvp bc the media hated his teammate. He was also drafted the the Lakers with MVP Kareem. And they won 5 rings together. They are both top 5-7 players of all time and they only won 5 together. And they had another HOF in Worthy. I guess you could e replaced Magic with anybody or Kareem with anybody.
To end my long tangent defending Kobe Bryant (something I thought I would never seriously do) I would not draft Kobe if I were a GM for a team within the Top 10. I wouldn’t draft Mike either. Give me D-Rob and an actual coach to teach him to play basketball instead of one year of Larry Brown and towel guy Tark, Lucas, the waiter at Pico de Gallo, did Bass come back or was it Stan? But as an nba player with nba accomplishments, Kobe is top 9-13.
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Posting Permissions
