Will Perdue thinks Bob Hill is better than Pop or Phil

[FromWayDowntown]

I hope not. I think everyone forms their own opinion here.

In MY opinion, if he was more knowledgable of a coach than Phil or Pop, he would have been back in the league sooner. Knowledgable doesn't just mean X's and O's or book smarts, it means relating to players as well .. and doing everything else that you need to know in order to be a good coach.

But I think that's sort of the opposite of the point that Perdue is making -- he's explicitly saying that Hill has great x's and o's basketball knowledge, but that he can't always relate that knowledge to his players.

Hill may be the cat's meow when it comes to x's and o's, but that doesn't make him a great or even good coach; it makes him occasionally effective when he has good players. I don't think that Will Perdue's statement was ever intended to suggest that Hill is a superior coach to either Pop or Phil; he just said he's a better x's and o's guy than either Pop or Phil were when Will Perdue played for those guys. Again, I don't see that as a terribly controversial or earthshattering observation -- Pop and Phil have been roundly criticized at numerous points by posters here for NOT being good x's and o's guys.

Some of that has changed, particularly with Pop. But given the frame of Will's reference, even timvp's earlier posts suggest that Pop wasn't any sort of "real" coach until 2001, which was long after Perdue left San Antonio. That pre-2001 time frame is the only context in which Will could make a first person assessment of Pop's knowledge and it doesn't seem all that off to suggest that as of 1999, Bob Hill was a more knowledgable coach than Pop.

[pache100]

Might I suggest if you are going to come to a conclusion about what someone said, you actually read what was said.

For the record, I did read the article.

And he did nothing to indicate he has sour grapes toward Zen, Pop and/or the Spurs.

That is your opinion. To me, that is exactly what it looks like. Why even make those remarks unless you have some hard feelings? Why would it even occur to you (Will)?

On the other front, sorry about the insult. Sometimes I get defensive for those I respect when people start twisting a story and spewing incorrect garbage that is picked up and repeated by the unsuspecting.

No problem. It might behoove you to take into consideration that the opinions of others, just because they do not agree with you, are not necessarily "incorrect garbage".

[Kori Ellis]

That pre-2001 time frame is the only context in which Will could make a first person assessment of Pop's knowledge and it doesn't seem all that off to suggest that as of 1999, Bob Hill was a more knowledgable coach than Pop.

It's still my opinion that a 1999 Pop or a 2001 Pop or a 1989-95 Phil Jackson are more knowledgable than Bob Hill.

[Que Gee]

For the record, I did read the article.



That is your opinion. To me, that is exactly what it looks like. Why even make those remarks unless you have some hard feelings? Why would it even occur to you (Will)?

He made those remarks due to the firing of Weiss and Hill taking over. I'm sure he was asked about Bob Hill since HE DID PLAY FOR HIM! So again, its not a question of any one being RIGHT or WRONG...Will Perdue is stating that HE FEELS Bob Hill is a GREAT X and O's kind of guy. I thought he made it fairly obvious by stating he's a great X and O's guy but yet also metioning he often has trouble relating to players on a day to day level with communication. Einstein may have been a genious but that doesn't necessarily mean he would have been a great teacher. Just like they say great players don't always make great coaches. I don't think anyone would ever question Michael Jordan's basketball IQ, or Magic Johnson's, but does that mean they would be good coaches?

[FromWayDowntown]

It's still my opinion that a 1999 Pop or a 2001 Pop or a 1989-95 Phil Jackson are more knowledgable than Bob Hill.

Fair enough. My point in this thread isn't so much about the substance of Will's comments. Mostly I think it's invalid to say that Perdue suggested that Hill is "better than" either Pop or Phil. I understand why the thread is couched in those terms, but it's not at all what Perdue said.

In that light, I don't see Perdue's statements as terribly controversial or evidence of some sort of bitterness, so maybe that's why I'm as fired up as I am to defend what he said.

I still think Bob Hill's sole strength is his knowledge of x's and o's. That, in my opinion, is the very thing that makes him a good assistant, but a head coach who is made to look better than he is only by having sublimely good players like a mid-90's David Robinson (paired with a motivated Dennis Rodman) to bail him out.

[pache100]

So again, its not a question of any one being RIGHT or WRONG...

That's been my point all along.

[Kori Ellis]

In that light, I don't see Perdue's statements as terribly controversial or evidence of some sort of bitterness, so maybe that's why I'm as fired up as I am to defend what he said.

Like I said, I don't think he's bitter at all. I see him around the Spurs organization quite often.

I don't think that his statements are "controversial" at all. Just a talking point.

[5ToolMan]

I hope not. I think everyone forms their own opinion here.

In MY opinion, if he was more knowledgable of a coach than Phil or Pop, he would have been back in the league sooner. Knowledgable doesn't just mean X's and O's or book smarts, it means relating to players as well .. and doing everything else that you need to know in order to be a good coach. I think it's laughable to think that he's more "knowledgable" than Pop/Phil. They've coached championship teams while he couldn't hold down a job at Fordham. It's my opinion. I'm en led to it like every other poster. So cut your at ude. "Go figure?"

Knowledgable in the context Perdue used it, has very little relation to the other aspects of being a good coach that you mention.

I am not trying to put down Pop or Zen, who have earned all the praise they may get. But those who want to twist a little remark made as a complement to Hill and not as an insult to others, by Purdue, as a reason to punch Hill below the belt is crazy.

Sorry if I bruise a few feeling by testing the "inside knowledge" of others and seeing if they have any valid legs to stand their conclusions on.

Here and/or on Spurs Report, I have asked anyone to post any articles from trusted sources that say the firing of Hill by Pop was anything other than a difference desired playing systems by Pop and Bob. I have asked for anyone to post any articles from trusted sources that indicate Hill was blacked balled from the league.

None of merit have been produced, while I have provided copy and/or timelines to demonstrate most of the trash thrown to slam Hill was just made up BS.

If you are going to post an opinion on a subject, should it not be an informed one? Here is an Q&A that gives you some info on Hill and what he has been doing since he left the NBA.

What do you bring to the Sonics coaching staff?
I don't know. I think, after 30 years of coaching, I can bring whatever they need me to bring, to be honest with you. I've always prided myself on being a student of basketball. I've written a lot about it, I've studied it a lot and I've studied under coaches. I've always tried to keep an open mind, realizing that there's more ways to do things than one. I'm not unlike a lot of guys - there's certain things about basketball that I had success with that I certainly believe in, but if there's a better way to do it, then I've tried to be open-minded about it. I think I can bring whatever Bobby needs me to bring.

How would you describe your philosophy as a coach?
I wrote a book encouraging younger coaches to establish philosophies of the game - offense, defense, special situations, practices, the whole thing. As you move along, your philosophies change and get stronger. I think in the NBA, the teams that have a balance in their performance that is anchored with their defense are the ones that continue to play and finally win championships. I think trying to establish that balance, play both ends of the floor but anchor everything with your defense is really where I am right now. Offensively, I think it's really important to get easy baskets. I think this team in particular is a team that's built to run and is built to score points. I think it's important that we do get out there, but I think our biggest improvement has to come defensively. If we can do that, we can win a lot of games.

What have you done since coaching at Fordham?
I took the two years and I just immersed myself in basketball. We had a Big Man & Guard Camp at the United States Basketball Academy in Oregon, so I wrote the curriculum for that. We've run that two summers. Then I've been to China four times doing tours with teams and clinics. I did clinics in the States. I did a lot of training players, like Desmond Mason, who was here before. Desmond is a client of Roger Montgomery, who is in San Antonio, so for two years I trained all of his clients - Desmond, Joey and Stevie Graham this year, Winsome Frazier, Chris Owens and a bunch of them and then taught four or five other guys. So actually, from the end of the college season all the way through the summer, I was in the gym every day. I developed and kind of put finishing touches on a player skills development program and all the drills and philosophies behind that. I watched games every night and then read a lot of books. I read books to pick up ideas on managing people and motivating people. The motivation part, the stories that are in books and the ideas about managing people, even in business books, whatever book I could get my hands on. I read a lot. I did the whole gamut.

How did you get involved with the USBA?
They called me after I left San Antonio. They called and asked if I would come up and get involved. At that time, they were having an international tryout camp. There is a level of player in this country that would blow your mind. They're really good. They're just not, for some reason, quite good enough to play in the NBA. A lot of them go overseas today. The basketball community of the world's in pretty good shape. These teams in these other countries are good now, partly because of Americans who have gone over and, either as a player or a coach, gotten involved in the maturation process of some of these countries. At that time, it was Europeans and Asians and everybody was there to watch. So I went up there. When you go up there, if you like basketball, you fall in love with the place. It's 45 minutes outside of Eugene along the McKenzie River in this big huge valley with all these enormous trees. It's like heaven up there. The weather is usually beautiful, the air is so clean and the food there is great. All there is to do is eat, sleep and basketball. There is a golf course about a half-mile away, but I haven't played that much golf up there. It's a place I look forward to going to. You're in the gym six or seven hours a day, you go have dinner, then you sit in your lodge and talk basketball until you fall asleep. Then you get up and you get up and do it all over again. For people who love basketball, it's a heck of a place.

How has the NBA changed since you were last on the sidelines?
Players change leagues. I think the players have changed the league quite a bit since we started drafting younger players, so now the development of those players becomes a priority. The league is much quicker and faster than it was before, probably not quite as skilled in terms of passing and shooting. I think we've often - not so much in the NBA - lost that in-between game. They either want to shoot 3s or go in and finish. When you find a player that can shoot 3s and then hit long twos and mid-range twos and shoot a floater and a baby hook and a stepback, you've got yourself a player, at least offensively - there's not a lot of those. So I think, although it's probably in some respects a little more athletic and fun, we're still in that development stage. But some of those guys who came in from high school or one year of college are awfully good, and I think the NBA's going to turn the corner soon in terms of being better than it's ever been in terms of its players and the product we can put on the floor when these guys get some experience under their belt. When LeBron (James) gets a couple more years under his belt … some of these guys are really, really good. (Vladimir) Radmanovic is a good example. If he continues to get better, how much fun he'd be to watch night in and night out. Rashard (Lewis) is really good. Luke (Ridnour), after coming out early. There's a lot of them. Every team has a number of them. I think that's the biggest change.

Who would you call the best coach you've worked with during your career?
I've been pretty lucky. Tim Grgurich, who was here for a while - I worked with him early in my career. Then I was with Ted Owens, then I was with Larry Brown, then I was with Hubie Brown. I think Larry Brown stands out. Larry Brown is a basketball coach through and through, and that is the most important thing in his life. He doesn't allow other things to get involved too much with his basketball. He talks it, he eats it, he sleeps it. I learned so much from him. What I learned from him was really simple, which is usually the case. He keeps things simple, and he teaches teams to be a team - just what they're supposed to be. He demands it. I remember a lot. He's clearly the best one I ever worked with.

[Kori Ellis]

If you are going to post an opinion on a subject, should it not be an informed one? Here is an Q&A that gives you some info on Hill and what he has been doing since he left the NBA.

My opinion is pretty well informed. I know a handful of players personally that played for his basketball academy in Oregon a few times. I know what he's been doing for the past few years.

[Que Gee]

Phil Jackson is Tex Winters puppet. Tex Winter is the one who implemented the triangle office in Chitown and LA. Not Phil Jackson. In fact, I think that is a perfect example of how a Bob Hill could most likely be a better X and O's coach then say a Phil Jackson. I think Phil did an unbelievable job with all the managing of the Pippens, and Shaqs, Rodmans, Jordans etc....But Tex Winter IS THE triangle offense. So, who would you say is a better X and O's guy? Tex or Phil...I'd say Tex...BUT, I would probably rather have Phil COACH the team...not Tex.

I just don't see how it seems so unfaithomable that Bob Hill could possibly know the X and O's game better than Pop and Phil.

The Spurs went 53-29 the year before Hill got fired...with DRob and Elliot. Was Bob Hill "knowledgable" that year?

[5ToolMan]

You know, now that this "Hill is better than Pop" thing is being brought up, I'll admit, even I thought Hill was better than Pop when Hill got canned, because even with Pop at the helm after he fired Hill, the Spurs finished 20 - 62. Of course, I was only about 13 at the time, and all I knew about the Spurs then was that a) they sucked, and b) David Robinson was out for the season due to an injury. Wanna guess what it took to prove me wrong?

Tim Duncan in the Lottery?

[pache100]

Sorry if I bruise a few feeling by testing the "inside knowledge" of others and seeing if they have any valid legs to stand their conclusions on.

Geez, are you the basketball god? I had no idea.

[5ToolMan]

Thank you for ACTUALLY READING the article.
Everyone needs to stop being such a "whiner" when Pop isn't called the "best" coach...or Parker isn't named the "best" poing guard in the NBA.... It says he was the most "knowledable coach" he had played for. It doesn't say in any way, shape or form, that he is the BEST coach he ever played for. There's a difference.

I do "disagree" with Kori in the sense that its "laughable." Why is it laughable? No one in here has every played for any of these coaches. There are street smarts and book smarts. I think Will is saying that Bob Hill has big time book smarts...But that doesn't mean he'd survive on the streets of the NBA...(he hasn't) He wasn't bad with the Spurs. There are alot of people throughout the NBA that given the situation in which Hill was removed, (with DRob being injured and just as Tim D was being drafted) and Pop descending to the thrown, thought it was a bit of a cheap shot and very unfair to Hill.

Thanks for the props, even if the way I pointed it out was out of line.

In another post I gave info on how Hill has worked with USAB putting on camps around the World. He has also written books about coaching the game. That might be a good place for one to look if they wanted to experience his knowledge.

I can tell you, Phil does not do camps and the only basketball book he ever wrote was a tell all about the disfunctional Lakers that he helped destroy. Pop does few camps, and is too busy on his wine tasting tour every summer to record his knowledge on paper.

[5ToolMan]

Geez, are you the basketball god? I had no idea.

No, but I do enjoy exposing those who claim to be. Do you have a problem with that?

[5ToolMan]

My opinion is pretty well informed. I know a handful of players personally that played for his basketball academy in Oregon a few times. I know what he's been doing for the past few years.

Really? Like who?

[pache100]

No, but I do enjoy exposing those who claim to be. Do you have a problem with that?

I didn't know anyone here claimed to be. No one but you is saying everyone else's opinions have to be measured against yours and if we don't agree with you, we're just wrong. You are the only one I've seen say or imply that

[Kori Ellis]

Really? Like who?

Well you can probably guess one -- Noel Felix was in his camp in Oregon last summer. He likes Bob Hill a lot. Bob Hill is the one who recommended him to Team USA, brought him in to Sonics training camp, etc.

[Oh, Gee!!]

Really? Like who?

shhhh, you have no idea how far up this forum goes. stop asking questions.

[ShoogarBear]

See, having Bob Hill back in the league has already brought some of the most fun we've had in years . .

[5ToolMan]

I didn't know anyone here claimed to be. No one but you is saying everyone else's opinions have to be measured against yours and if we don't agree with you, we're just wrong. You are the only one I've seen say or imply that

I have not typed anything to indicate that I think someone is wrong, just because they don't agree with me. Anyone is welcome to any opinion they wish to hold.

I will challange what I view as flawed opinions, and give reason and facts to back up my position. If that bothers you, it may be an indication you needs to check your views and convictions.

If you feel strongly on your point, I welcome you to bring back something of merit to demonstrate your position. When you do, I will quickly acknolwedge my error and give proper credit where due. And I my friend will have learned a valuable lesson, because you had the conviction to stand up for what you believed.

I hope you would want non the less from me.

[5ToolMan]

shhhh, you have no idea how far up this forum goes. stop asking questions.

LOL!

[ChumpDumper]

Well his last two seasons at Fordham he went 2-26 and 4-24 -- and two of those wins in the last year were by forfeit.

I agree, the way he was fired sucks but once you lose the players, you're sunk anywhere.

[pache100]

I have not typed anything to indicate that I think someone is wrong, just because they don't agree with me. Anyone is welcome to any opinion they wish to hold.

I will challange what I view as flawed opinions, and give reason and facts to back up my position. If that bothers you, it may be an indication you needs to check your views and convictions.

If you feel strongly on your point, I welcome you to bring back something of merit to demonstrate your position. When you do, I will quickly acknolwedge my error and give proper credit where due. And I my friend will have learned a valuable lesson, because you had the conviction to stand up for what you believed.

I hope you would want non the less from me.

There's that arrogance again. You say you don't think someone is wrong because they disagree with you then you turn right around and say you challenge "flawed opinions". Oh, the irony.

Dude, you are not offering anything here other than opinion. Get off your high horse, it's a long fall. I repeat...your opinions are NOT the yardstick for judging all other opinions. Your opinions are NOT fact. You're offering the same thing everyone else here is...what you THINK. Get over yourself.

[5ToolMan]

There's that arrogance again. You say you don't think someone is wrong because they disagree with you then you turn right around and say you challenge "flawed opinions". Oh, the irony.

Dude, you are not offering anything here other than opinion. Get off your high horse, it's a long fall. I repeat...your opinions are NOT the yardstick for judging all other opinions. Your opinions are NOT fact. You're offering the same thing everyone else here is...what you THINK. Get over yourself.

It looks like little pache is having another anger fit. It is tough on the littleminded ones who don't like to be caught in lies and/or dont have the conviction to stand up and give valid reasons for their views.

You made a flawed comment about what Perdue said, and I called you on it. Don't get your panties in such a wad just because you are not big enough to just admit you were wrong and move on.

[ShoogarBear]

Feb. 21: Seattle @ San Antonio

Good times. Book it.