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As I said in Washington last year, Bin Laden says his own role is to tell Muslims, quote, 'what is good for them and what is not.'"
Talk about a gigantic reach. The Muslim male can initiate divorce at any point he wishes. He can openly cheat on his wife with no consequences. Conversely, the wife has to jump through about 45,000 legal hoops in a relatively progressive Muslim country to have a chance.The Koran itself is fairly progressive when it comes to women, perhaps even more so than the Bible.
And if she cheats on the man? She's put to death.
Yeah, equal rights for women
As I said in Washington last year, Bin Laden says his own role is to tell Muslims, quote, 'what is good for them and what is not.'"
In "Islamic" countries, women are not treated according to their God-given rights. But this is not the fault of Islamic ideology but rather the misapplication or sometimes the outright denial of the ideology in these societies. For example, the practice of Mahr is never used or mentioned. Also a site that I was referred to:Talk about a gigantic reach. The Muslim male can initiate divorce at any point he wishes. He can openly cheat on his wife with no consequences. Conversely, the wife has to jump through about 45,000 legal hoops in a relatively progressive Muslim country to have a chance.
And if she cheats on the man? She's put to death.
Yeah, equal rights for women
Adultery in most relgions is bad, I think all three of the Abrahamic faiths call for the death of the two engaging in the act, but most of the world doesn't go for that instead they've reformed most Islamic nations never have been through any Great Awakenings or Enlightments like Western civilazation has gone through. Rather than faulting the ideology, the people governing the area are at fault for mixing religon and culture together and for being to controlling haters. Here is a funny fact: Three out of Four Women covert to Islam every day.Islam also recognizes the rights of women concerning divorce. Women have the same rights as those of men. However, due to the importance placed on the family in Islam, for its protection and maintenance, both men and women must follow certain procedures. For example, after the divorce both a man and a woman must wait a period of three months, called iddah . During this period of time the husband is responsible for the wife's maintenance. This waiting period has two functions: (1) to clarify whether the woman is pregnant or not. If she is pregnant, the husband is responsible for the wife's maintenance until the child is born. Furthermore, if the woman who is divorced has a young child, she can nurse the child for up two years and the father must maintain both the woman and her child. (2) Iddah also function as a cooling-off period during which the relatives and the community will try to help reconcile the couple ( Lemu 1978: 257-258).
Last edited by E20; 02-06-2006 at 11:29 PM.
I don't really give a what some website you linked to says
I took a course in Islamic Studies and had to read the Qur'an and the Haddith (basically, Muslim holy law).
It's pretty black and white on the rights of women (basically street cats have more).
Funny, because the site I got it from stated sources from the Hadith(basically, statements made by the Prophet Muhammad, not law which is Sharia) and Quran to back up their claims regarding women rights, so it's a misinterpation or contradiction. Also, where was your professor from?I don't really give a what some website you linked to says
I took a course in Islamic Studies and had to read the Qur'an and the Haddith (basically, Muslim holy law).
It's pretty black and white on the rights of women (basically street cats have more).
Last edited by E20; 02-07-2006 at 12:50 AM.
Saudi Arabian. And for perspective, he spent the first 15 minutes of class the day the US went into Iraq criticizing Bush...Also, where was your teacher from?
He also gave me a B on my senior thesis for arguing the Islamic religion was inherently violent, then he wrote a book that touched on the same subject
Look fellas. We need to work together to disagree.
This administration is very serious about this type a strategery.
This is a somewhat serious subject. This is why Kori make the Troll forum so you can take your off topic about Bush to that forum or one of the Bush bashing threads here.
This really is about Muslim reaction to EU cartoons maybe with some Bush mixed in.
Not a platform for a troll to try to derail a good subject.
this is mostly a topic for you an aggy to fellate each other really
WE didn't insult them, Jack...
AN INDIVIDUAL insulted them.
They, and apparently you, cannot separate the two.
Things most Muslims don't believe in (radical or not):
Freedom of Speach
Freedom of Press
Freedom of Religion
Women's Rights
AND, they don't recognize (from their actions and reaction) that those concepts EVEN exist for other people.
Then, what, do they convert back again so that they can convert again tomorrow?Here is a funny fact: Three out of Four Women covert to Islam every day.
AHF is right... Islam is inherently violent.
I thought that this material would shed some light on some Islamic teachings decide for yourselves:
Islam, Muhammad, Quran And The Hadiths
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Is Islam a peaceful religion? What are freedoms like in an Islamic country? How are people of other beliefs treated in these countries?
"So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush.."
Sura 9:5
"Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection."
Sura 9:29
"And fight in the way of Allah, and know that Allah is Hearing, Knowing."
Sura 2:244
"The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His apostle and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement."
Sura 5:33
"So when you meet in battle those who disbelieve, then smite the necks until when you have overcome them, then make (them) prisoners, and afterwards either set them free as a favor or let them ransom (themselves) until the war terminates. That (shall be so); and if Allah had pleased He would certainly have exacted what is due from them, but that He may try some of you by means of others; and (as for) those who are slain in the way of Allah, He will by no means allow their deeds to perish."
Sura 47:4
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The Quran teaches men can have up to four wives.
"And if you fear that you cannot act equitably towards orphans, then marry such women as seem good to you, two and three and four; but if you fear that you will not do justice (between them), then (marry) only one or what your right hands possess; this is more proper, that you may not deviate from the right course."
Sura 4:3
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The Quran teaches it is ok to beat your wife.
"Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great."
Sura 4:34
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The Quran teaches it is ok with Allah if you lie.
"Allah indeed has sanctioned for you the expiation of your oaths and Allah is your Protector, and He is the Knowing the Wise."
Sura 66:2
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Allah could have saved us, but He had to fill .
"And if We had pleased We would certainly have given to every soul its guidance, but the word (which had gone forth) from Me was just: I will certainly fill with the jinn and men together."
Sura 32:13
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Hadith: A oral tradition later written down of what the prophet supposedly said (sunna), did, or approved of---something said or done in his presence.
Some Hadith's that tell of Muhammad's life, they are considered second only to the Quran in authority.
"[Muhammad] Raided commercial Meccan caravans."
(Muhammad Husayn Haykal, The Life of Muhammad, p. 212.)
"Muhammad had a follower lie to Khalid in order to kill him. He then murdered him in the presence of his wife."
(Muhammad Husayn Haykal, The Life of Muhammad, p. 273.)
"Muhammad had two slave women murdered for singing a song that mocked him."
(Muhammad Husayn Haykal, The Life of Muhammad, p. 410.)
"Muhammad attacked the last Jewish tribe of Medina. All the men were put to death and the women and children were sold into slavery."
(Andrae, Muhammad: The Man and His Faith, p. 155-56.)
"The servant was called in and Ali immediately seized her and struck her painfully and repeatedly as he commanded her to tell the truth to the Prophet [Muhammad] of God."
(Muhammad Husayn Haykal, The Life of Muhammad, p. 336.)
"The Prophet ordered the execution of Uqbah Ibn Abu Muayt. When Uqbah pleaded, 'Who will take care of my children, O Muhammad?' Muhammad answered, 'The fire.'"
(Muhammad Husayn Haykal, The Life of Muhammad, p. 234; cf. 236, 237, 243.)
When it was believed that one woman, Abu' Afk, had insulted Muhammad (by a poem), one of Muhammad's followers, "attacked her during the night while she was surrounded by her children, one of whom she was nursing...After removing the child from his victim, he killed her."
(Muhammad Husayn Haykal, The Life of Muhammad, p. 243.)
Allah's Apostle said, "I have been ordered to fight with the people till they say, 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah,' and whoever says, 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah,' his life and property will be saved by me."
(Al-Bukhari, 9 vols. translated by Dr. Muhammad Muhsin Khan, Al Nabawiya: Dar Ahya Us-Sunnah, n.d.)
Allah's Apostle said, "Know that Paradise is under the shades of swords."
(Al-Bukhari, 9 vols. translated by Dr. Muhammad Muhsin Khan, Al Nabawiya: Dar Ahya Us-Sunnah, n.d.)
"It is not fitting for a prophet that he should have prisoners of war (and free them with ransom) until he has made a great slaughter (among his enemies) in the land."
(Al-Bukhari, 9 vols. translated by Dr. Muhammad Muhsin Khan, Al Nabawiya: Dar Ahya Us-Sunnah, n.d.)
"Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him."
(Al-Bukhari, 9 vols. translated by Dr. Muhammad Muhsin Khan, Al Nabawiya: Dar Ahya Us-Sunnah, n.d.)
"An infidel spy came to the Prophet while he was on a journey. The spy sat with the companions of the Prophet and started talking and then went away. The Prophet said (to his companions), "Chase and kill him." So, I killed him. The Prophet then gave him the belongings of the killed spy."
(Al-Bukhari, 9 vols. translated by Dr. Muhammad Muhsin Khan, Al Nabawiya: Dar Ahya Us-Sunnah, n.d.)
"Some people from the tribe of Ukl came to the Prophet and embraced Islam. The climate of Medina did not suit them, so the Prophet ordered them to go to the (herd of milk) camels of charity and to drink their milk and urine (as a medicine). They did so, and after they had recovered from their ailment (became healthy) they turned renegades (reverted from Islam) and killed the shepherd of the camels and took the camels away. The Prophet sent (some people) in their pursuit and so they were (caught and) brought, and the Prophet ordered that their hands and legs should be cut off and that their eyes should be branded with heated pieces of iron, and that their cut hands and legs should not be cauterized, till they die."
(Al-Bukhari, 9 vols. translated by Dr. Muhammad Muhsin Khan, Al Nabawiya: Dar Ahya Us-Sunnah, n.d.)
"The Prophet passed by me at a place called Al-Abwa or Waddan, and was asked whether it was permissible to attack the pagan warriors at night with the probability of exposing their women and children to danger. The Prophet replied, "They (i.e. women and children) are from them (i.e. pagans)."
(Al-Bukhari, 9 vols. translated by Dr. Muhammad Muhsin Khan, Al Nabawiya: Dar Ahya Us-Sunnah, n.d.)
The above tradition, like many others, is also repeated in other collections of prophet Muhammad's sayings. In the second most authoritative hadith collection, The Sahih of Muslim, the chapter that discusses this particular saying is en led, "Permissibility of killing women and children in the night raids, provided it is not deliberate." The author then goes on to write, "It is reported on the authority of Sa'b b. Jaththama that the Prophet of Allah (may peace be upon him), when asked about the women and children of the polytheists being killed during the night raid, said: They are from them"
We will end this discussion with two more traditions from another collection, Sunan Abu Dawud. Under a chapter en led, "Excellence of killing an infidel" we read the following saying. "Abu Harairah reported the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) as saying: An infidel and the one who killed him will never be brought together in ." The Muslim translator of this work adds the following footnote to this tradition, "This means that a person who kills an infidel while fighting in Allah's path (i.e. jihad) will have his sins remitted and forgiven, and will, therefore, go to Paradise. The infidel will inevitably go to . Thus the man who killed an infidel will not be brought together in with him."
Another chapter in this collection is en led, "Punishment of a man who abuses the Prophet (may peace be upon him)." The author recounts the story of a Muslim man who killed his slave and concubine by whom he had two children. Since she "disparaged" the Prophet, the slave owner, "took the dagger, put it on her belly and pressed it till [he] killed her." Upon hearing the reason for this murder, the prophet said, "Oh, be witness, no retaliation is payable for her blood." The next incident in the above chapter is reported by Ali. "A Jewess used to abuse the Prophet (may peace be upon him) and disparage him. A man strangled her till she died. The Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) declared that no recompense was payable for her blood. Once again, the translator provides us with the following explanatory notes: "It is unanimously agreed that if a Muslim abuses or insults the Prophet (may peace be upon him) he should be killed. even if a Jew or any non-Muslim abuses the Prophet (may peace be upon him) he will be killed. The punishment for abusing or opposing the Prophet (may peace be upon him) was death.".......
Ideas have consequences. It has also become very clear for our world once again that violent ideas have violent consequences. We are not engaging in old Christian-Muslim polemics when we point out the prevalence of violence throughout the foundations and thus subsequent history of Islam. We are only exposing the teachings in the most original and authoritative sources of Islam. We believe that it is essential for people of goodwill around the world to know that underneath all the political, social, and cultural causes for the rise of violence among Muslims, there is a religious foundation for violence deeply embedded within the very worldview of Islam. The world needs to take the challenge of Islam more seriously than at any other time in the past.
(Geisler, N. L., & Saleeb, A. 2002. Answering Islam : The crescent in light of the cross (2nd ed.) . Baker Books: Grand Rapids, Mich.)
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Muhammad thought that he was possessed by a devil when he allegedly received his call as a prophet of Allah.
"Stricken with panic, Muhammad arose and asked himself, 'What did I see? Did possession of the devil which I feared all along come to pass?' Muhammad looked to his right and his left but saw nothing. For a while he stood there trembling with fear and stricken with awe. He feared the cave might be haunted and that he might run away still unable to explain what he saw."
(Muhammad Husayn Haykal, The Life of Muhammad, p. 74.)
Muhammad's wife, Khadijah comforted him when Muhammad feared demon possession, "As she did on earlier occasions when Muhammad feared possession by the devil, so now stood firm by her husband and devoid of the slightest doubt."
(Muhammad Husayn Haykal, The Life of Muhammad, p. 75.)
Maybe Muhammad was right, In fact I do believe him on this point, Muhammad was possessed by Jinn (demons). Muslims should consider this and be sure that Muhammad was not right at first in thinking that he was possessed by jinn.
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Muhammad prayed to the dead.
"The Muslims who overheard him [Muhammad] asked, 'Are you calling the dead?' And the Prophet answered, 'They hear me no less than you do, except that they are unable to answer me."
(Muhammad Husayn Haykal, The Life of Muhammad, p. 231.)
On another occasion Muhammad was found, "Praying for the dead buried in that cemetery."
(Muhammad Husayn Haykal, The Life of Muhammad, p. 495.)
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Muhammad Married Aisha bint Abu Bakr Who Was 9 Years Old
Muhammad married Aisha bint Abu Bakr when she was 9 years old. How can a prophet of God marry a nine year old little girl and have over 10 wives? Is this the type of behavior for a prophet of the Holy and Righteous God?
Be honest with yourself my friend, Muhammad could not have been a true prophet of God. Compare Muhammad's life with the life of Jesus and you will see who was speaking for God while they lived here on earth.
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Compare Jesus To Muhammad Using The Quran Itself
Jesus did miracles (Sura 3:49, 5:110), but Mohammad did not (Sura 13:8 "thou art a warner [of coming divine judgment] only"; also 6:37; 6:109, 17:59 and 17:90-93); Jesus was sinless (Sura 3:46), but Mohammad sinned and needed forgiveness (Sura 40:55: "ask forgiveness of thy sin"; 42:5: "ask forgiveness for those on Earth"; 47:19 "ask forgiveness for thy sin"; 48:2 "that Allah may forgive thee of thy sin"). Jesus was called "the Messiah" and was even born of a virgin (3:45-57)!
How could Muhammad be the greatest of the prophets? If you would just follow the Quran as a Muslim, you would have to view Jesus as greater than Muhammad.
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DO MUSLIMS AND CHRISTIANS WORSHIP THE SAME GOD?
Islam teaches:
1) God is virtually unknowable.
2) God will send people to or Paradise as he chooses. (Sura 32:13)
3) Jesus was not the Son of God. (Sura 19:35, 112:3)
4) Deny that Jesus is God in the flesh. (Sura 4:116)
5) Deny that Jesus died on the cross. (Sura 4:157-58)
6) Deny that Jesus rose again. (Sura 4:157-58)
7) Deny that Jesus is the final, conclusive revelation of God.
8) Deny that Jesus is the way to God.
9) God requires total obedience to Islam.
10) It is the unforgivable sin of "Shirk" to say that Jesus is God. (Sura 4:116)
11) God required the works of Muhammad to complete his words of judgement to man.
12) The Bible is corrupt and cannot be trusted.
13) Deny the death of Jesus on the cross as payment for our sins, rather Islam teaches that salvation is based upon good works. (Sura 4:157-58)
Compare this to The Jesus of the Bible, as you know it is impossible for two things to be true if they both contradict each other (The Law of non-contradiction). Therefore, Christianity and Islam cannot both be true, either they both are wrong or one of them is true, but it is impossible for both to be true. Examine the evidence and decide for yourself.
remember guys, Islam is a religion of peace. HAHHHHHHHHHHaaa, or did they mean pieces, or maybe they ment peace as in terms of a gun, you know? like Piece??
I just looked, my Islam prof is writing a book about living in a world with the 'infidels'. WTF?
The Danes haven't gotten this kind of global attention since Hamlet. It is rather amusing that violent protests are breaking out due to a caricature of Islam as a religion based in part on a violent prophet. It's also amusing to what levels the politically correct apologists for Islamic violence will stoop to in order to avoid calling a spade a spade.
What's also amazing is how people will create an opposing point of view out of thin air.
Who is an apolologist for Islamic violence?
You act like there's some kind of virtue in proclaiming that Islam is a religion of violence. What are you trying to achieve?
In my case, I wouldn't necesarily glorify the fact that we can point at Islam and say, "Geesh your doctrines are rather crass, and violent."
I would instead point to the fact that those who think that "peaceful" muslims can pose no threat whatsover would be erring. Why? Because even if one or two generations adopted a more secluded and personal philosophy (modern co-existing views)... a subsequent generation is bound to see that their holy book supports the murder of those that do not think as 'they' do.
Is not what is happening in Europe a sign of what can happen here if enough muslims eventually settle in the states.... "Amisdst the belly of the Beast".
It's a complicated problem with no practical or 'politically correct' solution.
Surely he is just trying to endear himself with our friends running Afghanistan and Iraq.You act like there's some kind of virtue in proclaiming that Islam is a religion of violence. What are you trying to achieve?
Given all that, why does everyone think true, lasting democracies are possible in the ME?
I'm just glad Freedom of Speech got a chance to flex it's muscles. I mean, having it written in The Law isn't enough... Sometimes you have to remind people that you have Freedom of Speech by giving them a good " you mother er."
That's what I like to do. I like to walk up to random old people and tell them to go their Nazi mothers. I like to tell black people to go pick my cotton. I like to walk into churches yelling "Jesus was a child molesting got!!" Cause I gots me some Free Speech dagnammit! And if you got it, flaunt it! the consequences!
Now if the Cons ution would only allow me to take a dump in a public place when I feel like making a statement, I'll be livin'!
Virtue? More like fact. The religion of Islam has been around for 1500 years. It's been warring for 1500 years. The only time they stop fighting with one another is to fight with the 'infidels'.You act like there's some kind of virtue in proclaiming that Islam is a religion of violence.
Really, it's only going to get worse. Like I've said repeatedly on this site the last couple of years - the sad thing is it's going to take a nuke or two on American soil killing hundreds of thousands or millions for folks on the left to get the clue.
This isn't like Vietnam where you can just pull out and the problem will go away.
The virtue and the fact are completely separate.
The fact is that a lot of gay men take it up the ass. But I question whether there is virtue in printing a satirical cartoon in a newspaper portraying a gay man with a up his ass.
What exactly are you trying to accomplish?
Last edited by Spurminator; 02-07-2006 at 03:16 PM.
What is anyone trying to accomplish with any comics in the newspaper? Get people to talk, get people to write in.
Mission accomplished. The question is what are are all the idiots firebombing embassies trying to accomplish?
If they are protesting the cartoon depiction of Islam being a violent religion, they aren't exactly doing anything to break down that stereotype, know what I mean?
I'll say. But was it worth it?What is anyone trying to accomplish with any comics in the newspaper? Get people to talk, get people to write in.
Mission accomplished.
The nutjobs don't care about the stereotype, they're protesting the fact that an image of Muhammed was published. I certainly feel no pity for them or the image they've given themselves, but I do pity the Muslims (however common or rare they may be) who do not support these sentiments but are still affected by the stereotype.The question is what are are all the idiots firebombing embassies trying to accomplish?
If they are protesting the cartoon depiction of Islam being a violent religion, they aren't exactly doing anything to break down that stereotype, know what I mean?
They aren't protesting Mohammed being published. They're protesting how he was portrayed.
Personally I think it's BS. They call us Great Satan, infidels, Allies of the Zionists, etc. and expect us to sit there and take it.
But the moment anyone characterizes Mohammed as anything other than the end all be all of the world's religions, they go killing people and burning down buildings.
Hypocritical to say the least.
To me it's just more proof that there is no place for Islam in the modern world. It's going to come down to the entire world reverting back to the 7th century and living under a worldwide empire of Islam, or it's going to be the modern world wiping that way of thinking and those who think it off the face of the earth.
Personally, I like the internet. I like indoor plumbing. I like living. I'll be rooting for the rest of the world on this one.
They hate freedom.
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