Bruce VS AJ whose number would you rather see retired?

[Bloodline666]

[whottt]If Stoudemire hadn't shot 7-15 that day, there might not have been an MDM, either.[/whottt]

Something tells me the Spurs' defense wasn't the ONLY factor in Stoudamire's bad shooting that night. Must have been Isaiah Rider's dimebag, too. Or was it Rasheed's?

[NZHayden]

why did the heat retire jordans number?

[FromWayDowntown]

Something tells me the Spurs' defense wasn't the ONLY factor in Stoudamire's bad shooting that night. Must have been Isaiah Rider's dimebag, too. Or was it Rasheed's?

The point was actually that Stoudemire shot the ball relatively well (nearly 50%), given the way the game was played in 1999.

[whottt]

why did the heat retire jordans number?

Stupidity...


I believe they did it as a tribute to Jordan during Jordan's final final final season.

[Reggie Miller]

Actually, in many cities the resumes don't have to be very thick at all. And there are more than a few flat-out jokes amongst the retired numbers.

Here is a list of the retired numbers (or otherwise retired memorabilia) for NBA teams. I have annoted the ones I personally consider as questionable with *, and the flat-out jokes with **.


Pacers: George McGinnis, Mel Daniels, Roger Brown, Slick Leonard

I myself would at least consider giving Leonard a * as a coach. At least two of their ABA championship teams were good enough to have won the NBA championsip (see the first three names on that list). Obviously, it takes a good coach to win any championship, but I don't think you can make an argument that Leonard is a Grade A-1 coach. That said, I have been active in the "Free Slick" movement from time to time. He's been out of coaching too long now.

As a broadcaster, he's an older version of Barkley, so I'll be pleasantly surprised if he gets in the Hall as a broadcaster. He's earned it. Many announcers call their team out; Leonard is the only one I've actually seen try to call plays from the booth when the team is imploding. It always saves me from tearing out my hair, so I gotta love the guy.

EDIT: Apparently, no one else is going to mention it so...
Reggie's 31 has also been retired and he's dating Vivica A. Fox. Now that last part may rate a few asterisks...

[Bloodline666]

Stupidity...


I believe they did it as a tribute to Jordan during Jordan's final final final season.

I'd say you're exactly right. It was also for Jordan's contributions to the league, despite Jordan never having played for the Heat.

I heard the Heat also retired Dan Marino's number for his contribution to Miami, despite the fact that he was in the NFL and not the NBA.

[Reggie Miller]

I'd say you're exactly right. It was also for Jordan's contributions to the league, despite Jordan never having played for the Heat.

I heard the Heat also retired Dan Marino's number for his contribution to Miami, despite the fact that he was in the NFL and not the NBA.

No that's just a rumor...

The truth is...Miami is going to assign Al Pacino a number and retire him for his role in Scarface.

[Darrin]

It would seem to me that there are a few criteria for a retired number:

- Contribution: were they around for unique times in the franchise history like Championships?
- Individual Talent: Is this a first-ballot Hall of Famer? Are they the best player in franchise history? Did they win big awards?
- Tenure: Did they spend a significant amount of time with the franchise (10 years+)
- Statistics: Are they all over the stats for the franchise history?
- Nortorious: Does the fanbase refer to them on a first-name basis?

I think Avery meets more of those criteria than Bruce Bowen.

[Darrin]

A little background info on this topic:

Bruce Bowen:

When Bruce Bowen came the Spurs he originally signed for $700,000 for 1 year and an opportunity to compete for a starting role, which he then won fair and square. Bruce turned down a much larger contract from the Miami Heat for this opportunity.

Bruce was signed for one main reason and one main reason only...

Because the prior season the Avery Johnson lead(don't want to piss off the AJ fans by witholding credit for his leadership) Spurs suffered the most humiliating loss in Western Conference Finals history...Getting swept with HCA by the largest average margin of defeat of any team in Western Conference History by the LA Lakers. The major culprits in this humiliation were Kobe Bryant who averaged @ 35PPG against us and Derek Fisher(who set an NBA record for 3pt PCT in a WCF against us).

During Bruce's first year with the team Bruce broke his finger and the Spurs, who were 25-8 at the time, proceeded to drop 12 of their next 23 games.

The Spurs went on to again win 58 games and meet the Lakers in the semi finals. Even though the Spurs again lost that series due to a lack of slashing guards and outside shooting...Kobe Bryant was not near as dominant, the Spurs won a game on the Lakers home court and held a double digit lead entering the 4th quarter of every game.

Bruce was resigned the following year at a fair market value that still left the Spurs flexibility. The Spurs promoted Stephen Jackson to the starting lineup, traded to get Steve Kerr back and added a crazy Argentine by the name of Manu. Bruce went on to make second team all NBA defense and have a virtuoso defensive performance against Kobe Bryant(including one game where he matched Kobe's scoring) and the Spurs went onto win the NBA championship beating the defending champion Lakers in the process.

Since that time Bruce has become an integral part of the soul of the team, routinely guarding the opponents' most dominant perimeter player, regardless of size. And has continued to racked up All NBA defensive awards.

Prior to last years le run, Bruce opted out of his contract at the benefit of the Spurs, taking essnetially a paycut for longer years, and freeing up much needed money to resign Manu and additional players like Brent Barry.



Avery Johnson:

Avery was a ing scrub who couldn't even hold down a 3rd string role on any team...he was passed around the NBA like a 2 dollar , including a season playing for the Rockets which was the only season of Hakeem's career that he was healthy and did not make the playoffs.

No one was trying to sign Avery Johnson and he was lucky to have a freaking job....


The Spurs PG position was in the absolute toilet and basically the Spurs were forced to either resign AJ, or else continue using Vinny Del Negro at point...

David Robinson was able to cover up AJ's total lack of any semblance of an NBA game and AJ finally found a job in the NBA far exceeding his actual ability.

The Spurs gave AJ the best contract he ever had and were the only team to ever consider him for an oncourt job other than ballboy.

AJ never made any ALL NBA teams of any kind and routinely got ing worked by which PG he was guaurding.

He did however lead the David Robinsonless Gregg Popovich coached 96-97 Spurs to the worst record in team history. And Tim Duncan.

But as a player...

About the only guys AJ intimidated were rookies in the shower...

Avery eventually sucked so bad the Spurs had to pulls his worthless butt out of the starting lineup which then lead to one of the whiniest cenceriest incidents in Spurs history...


At the end of that season AJ was again given an important role against the LA Lakers and Avery responded with a buttload of scorless and assistless games and making Derek Fisher look like a Hall of Famer.


AJ then took his worthless ass to ride the bench in Denver leading them to thew worst record in the NBA...many felt he was now holding the Spurs responsible for his total lack of NBA game and ability.

Tim Duncan and David Robinson were seen helping AJ pack his bags and hodling the door open for him as he left town.


After a superb lottery year in Denver...

AJ hit the bigtime again as chief nutrider for the Mavericks before they too realiaed he had absolutely no freaking game and traded his worthless azz.

Since then AJ took the highest paying job he could get against one of the Spurs most notorious enemies and is insidiously now trying use his knowledge gained a trusted member of the team, to his old team out of winning another le in their golden age.


He whines in the media, runs up the score and tries to capitalize on the bad repution Bruce has gained in winning US les, so that he can get that over rated piece of crap Mark Cuban an NBA le.



That's the breakdown given to you as objectively as I possibly can...

You decide...whose jersey would you rather see hanging up there in the rafters.

Did Damon Stoudamire write this?

[Reggie Miller]

It would seem to me that there are a few criteria for a retired number:

- Contribution: were they around for unique times in the franchise history like Championships?
- Individual Talent: Is this a first-ballot Hall of Famer? Are they the best player in franchise history? Did they win big awards?
- Tenure: Did they spend a significant amount of time with the franchise (10 years+)
- Statistics: Are they all over the stats for the franchise history?
- Nortorious: Does the fanbase refer to them on a first-name basis?

Those are very good criteria for any sport. The only one I might possibly add is "Multiple Roles." Some players don't quite get there as players but deserve it for player/coach, player/broadcaster, or whatever. Slick is a good example. 3 ABA Championships alone might be questionable, but that and a couple of decades in other roles merits having a # retired, no question.

[Darrin]

Those are very good criteria for any sport. The only one I might possibly add is "Multiple Roles." Some players don't quite get there as players but deserve it for player/coach, player/broadcaster, or whatever. Slick is a good example. 3 ABA Championships alone might be questionable, but that and a couple of decades in other roles merits having a # retired, no question.

I think that can be folded into tenure. Obviously guys like Chick Hearn, Red Auerbach, Cotton Fitzsimmons, Geoff Petrie, etc. get honored because they spend a lot of years in the organization.

[whottt]

It would seem to me that there are a few criteria for a retired number:

- Contribution: were they around for unique times in the franchise history like Championships?

Yes...to both, but so was Steve Smith. Bruce was part of 2 in 5 years, playing only 2 years with Duncan and Robinson.

AJ was part of 1 in 9+years, playing 4 years with Duncan and Robinson.

- Individual Talent: Is this a first-ballot Hall of Famer? Are they the best player in franchise history? Did they win big awards?

AJ: No, no, and no.
Bruce: No, no, and yes.

- Tenure: Did they spend a significant amount of time with the franchise (10 years+)

No to both....AJ was on the Spurs roster in 10 different seasons...but he was sighned late one of those years and another he was cut later in the season....

- Statistics: Are they all over the stats for the franchise history?

AJ's got the career assist mark...but that's about it. Tony'll have that in about 2 or 3 more years...around the time he is 27 or so. Meanwhile...Bruce is a year and a half away from having the career 3 point mark locked up.

- Nortorious: Does the fanbase refer to them on a first-name basis?

Yes to both...but we also refer to Shaq, Kobe, Dirk and Hakeem on a first name basis...

I think Avery meets more of those criteria than Bruce Bowen.

He's got about 1 thing that Bowen doesn't....a career mark...But Bowen's got mutiple All NBA Defensive teams.

Oh and one other thing...being the best in the league at something...

Avery was never that...Bruce has been, 3 point champ...and he's here for his D.


Wait a second...Bruce was the starting SF on the ALL NBA D Team last year...he's been the best in the league at something on both sides of the ball.

[Phenomanul]

Be very curteous with with clubalien.... and always give him (or his 12 year old brother) an autograph at their request... he may end up holding a grudge against you if you don't.

[Darrin]

Yes...to both, but so was Steve Smith. Bruce was part of 2 in 5 years, playing only 2 years with Duncan and Robinson.

AJ was part of 1 in 9+years, playing 4 years with Duncan and Robinson.

Name me another player who was with Robinson longer than Avery Johnson. Steve Smith is a cheap shot at Avery. Johnson played 644 games with the Spurs. Every Player who's played that many games with the Pistons has their number retired (Joe Dumars - 1,018, Isiah Thomas - 979, Bill Laimbeer - 937, Vinnie Johnson - 798, Bob Lanier - 681, and Dave Bing - 675).

No to both....AJ was on the Spurs roster in 10 different seasons...but he was sighned late one of those years and another he was cut later in the season....

So what? He played 644 games with the Spurs.

Here's his stat line: 644 games, 6,486 points (10.1 PPG), 4,474 assists (6.9 APG), 1,222 rebounds (1.9 RPG), and 799 steals (1.24 SPG).

The Pistons have five players with that many steals - three of the five have their numbers retired (Isiah Thomas, Joe Dumars, and Vinnie Johnson). One is currently playing (Lindsey Hunter) and the other didn't do much else besides steal the ball (Chris Ford).

Only Isiah Thomas (9,061) and Joe Dumars (4,612) have more assists as Pistons, than Johnson has a Spur.

AJ's got the career assist mark...but that's about it. Tony'll have that in about 2 or 3 more years...around the time he is 27 or so. Meanwhile...Bruce is a year and a half away from having the career 3 point mark locked up.

So Avery Johnson sits at number two, and that's not worth some consideration?

1992-93: 561
1994-95: 670
1995-96: 789
1996-97: 513
1997-98: 591
1999-00: 491

That's how many seasons Avery Johnson topped Tony Parker's career high of 491 assists in a single season...as a Spur.

Yes to both...but we also refer to Shaq, Kobe, Dirk and Hakeem on a first name basis...

I don't refer to AJ, Little General, Avery with the same affection and nostalgia as I refer to Zeke, the Microwave, Worm, Dennis, Vinnie, Billy, Joe D, Big Ben, Body, the Dobber, Rip, etc. There are memories attached to that. I hear Joe DUUUUUUUUMARS as he spots up for a three when I say Joe D. I don't feel the same thing for Shaq, Kobe, Dirk, and Hakeem.

So, is Johnson affectionately referred to in San Antonio? I don't think you've addressed that question.

He's got about 1 thing that Bowen doesn't....a career mark...But Bowen's got mutiple All NBA Defensive teams.

He's also got five years on Bruce Bowen and a ava lot more blood, sweat, and tears poored into the franchise. I don't know, maybe I'm different. But I have more respect for guys who took a chance with the organization, stuck around until they finally got it right, then a free agent who signs with a team already established as one of the premiere franchises in the league.

It's like saying, at least in my eyes, that Rasho Nesterovic had as much to do with the Spurs as David Robinson. And I'm not talking about their talent.

Or for a Pistons analogy - Rasheed Wallace had as much to do with the Pistons rise as Bill Laimbeer.

Oh and one other thing...being the best in the league at something...

Avery was never that...Bruce has been, 3 point champ...and he's here for his D.

Are you kidding? Avery Johnson is 28th all-time in assists (5,846). That means a ava lot more to me than being able to spot shoot from the wings. That's more than Larry Bird, Michael Jordan, Dennis Johnson, Dave Bing, Kenny Anderson, Walt Frazier, Steve Nash, Damon Stoudamire, Joe Dumars, Doc Rivers, Mark Price, Gus Williams, Terrell Brandon, Rick Barry, Alvin Robertson...

"Be good at one thing" They didn't call him the "Little General" for nothing.

[Texas_Ranger]

Bruce Bowen, he`s better

[whottt]

Name me another player who was with Robinson longer than Avery Johnson.

Sean Elliot

Steve Smith is a cheap shot at Avery.

There is nothing cheap about Steve Smith's shot when being compared to Avery's.

Johnson played 644 games with the Spurs. Every Player who's played that many games with the Pistons has their number retired (Joe Dumars - 1,018, Isiah Thomas - 979, Bill Laimbeer - 937, Vinnie Johnson - 798, Bob Lanier - 681, and Dave Bing - 675).

Spurs>Pistons

So what? He played 644 games with the Spurs.

And? Someone had to start at PG. If we could have changed the rules to eliminate the PG position during that era...we would have. And we were setting a good example of why the position should have been eliminated.

Here's his stat line: 644 games, 6,486 points (10.1 PPG), 4,474 assists (6.9 APG), 1,222 rebounds (1.9 RPG), and 799 steals (1.24 SPG).

The Pistons have five players with that many steals - three of the five have their numbers retired (Isiah Thomas, Joe Dumars, and Vinnie Johnson). One is currently playing (Lindsey Hunter) and the other didn't do much else besides steal the ball (Chris Ford).

That's really not that many steals...case in point...David Robinson had more and averaged more per game. The fact that our starting C averaged more SPG than our PG tells you exactly what the state of the franchise was.

Only Isiah Thomas (9,061) and Joe Dumars (4,612) have more assists as Pistons, than Johnson has a Spur.

Geezuz H...I know you aren't seriously attempting a comparison of Avery Johnson to Isiah Thomas and Joe Dumars, I don't give a flying f what their assist totals are...You fellow Pistons fans are likely to run you for that one.

So Avery Johnson sits at number two, and that's not worth some consideration?

Not when you consider the fact that the guy who held the mark before
AJ had his career cut short due to a lifethreatening illness and set the mark in about 8 years.

1992-93: 561
1994-95: 670
1995-96: 789
1996-97: 513
1997-98: 591
1999-00: 491

That's how many seasons Avery Johnson topped Tony Parker's career high of 491 assists in a single season...as a Spur.

Tony Parker is also only 22 years old...Avery Johnson wasn't even in the NBA at the age of 22.

Tony Paker, in 6 more playoff games, will have started more playoff games than any PG in Spurs history...and he'll be 23 years old.

I don't refer to AJ, Little General, Avery with the same affection and nostalgia as I refer to Zeke, the Microwave, Worm, Dennis, Vinnie, Billy, Joe D, Big Ben, Body, the Dobber, Rip, etc. There are memories attached to that. I hear Joe DUUUUUUUUMARS as he spots up for a three when I say Joe D. I don't feel the same thing for Shaq, Kobe, Dirk, and Hakeem.

I refer to former Spur Rodman by one name...I call him sucker...that doesn't mean I want his jersey retired.

so, is Johnson affectionately referred to in San Antonio? I don't think you've addressed that question.

By some....so is Bruce.

He's also got five years on Bruce Bowen and a ava lot more blood, sweat, and tears poored into the franchise. I don't know, maybe I'm different. But I have more respect for guys who took a chance with the organization, stuck around until they finally got it right, then a free agent who signs with a team already established as one of the premiere franchises in the league.

Um...the Spurs were a premiere franchise the day David Robinson stepped on the court...they were that way before AJ signed here, they were that way when AJ signed here, they were that way when he was replaced with a 19 year old. They became more premiere after AJ left and Bowen signed.


AJ did not take a chance with the Spurs...AJ was cut and waived and could barely hold onto a back up spot...the Spurs took a chance on AJ.

And you have your priorities...

But guys that are willing to take a paycut in order to win impress me more than any athlete doing anything else...

And Bruce didn't take the paycut to nutride...he took it for a chance to start and turned down a of a lot of money to do it...AJ never turned down any money.

It's like saying, at least in my eyes, that Rasho Nesterovic had as much to do with the Spurs as David Robinson. And I'm not talking about their talent.

I think you've got something in your eyes.

Or for a Pistons analogy - Rasheed Wallace had as much to do with the Pistons rise as Bill Laimbeer.

Bill Lambeir > Avery Johnson....Rasheed Wallace > Avery Johnson....Bruce Bowen > Avery Johnson...David Robinson > Avery Johnson

Rasho Neterovich > ahhhh it...even I can't do that. Congrats...you are the first person to ever reach my AJ limit.

Are you kidding? Avery Johnson is 28th all-time in assists (5,846). That means a ava lot more to me than being able to spot shoot from the wings. That's more than Larry Bird, Michael Jordan, Dennis Johnson, Dave Bing, Kenny Anderson, Walt Frazier, Steve Nash, Damon Stoudamire, Joe Dumars, Doc Rivers, Mark Price, Gus Williams, Terrell Brandon, Rick Barry, Alvin Robertson...

What was AJ's career APG outside of the Spurs...IE when he wasn't tossing it into a Center who won a scoring championship with no point guard.

"Be good at one thing" They didn't call him the "Little General" for nothing.

They called him that because he was short and bossy.


...I can do that. Retire my jersey.

[Kori Ellis]

Tony Parker is also only 22 years old...Avery Johnson wasn't even in the NBA at the age of 22.

Tony Paker, in 6 more playoff games, will have started more playoff games than any PG in Spurs history...and he'll be 23 years old.

Irrelevant Note: He's 23, almost 24.

[timvp]

Rasho Neterovich > ahhhh it...even I can't do that. Congrats...you are the first person to ever reach my AJ limit.

Baby steps. Slowly but surely you'll see the light.

Once upon a time you idolized Rafael Palmiero. You saw the error of your ways after a while and you will the see your errors again day you are sitting in the AT&T Center the day AJ's numbers 6 and 15 go into the rafters.

[SpursChampsIII]

Neither

[NoMoneyDown]

Steve Javie should have his jersey retired.

In the NBA Hall of Shame

[pache100]

If I have to choose between the two (WFT?)...Bruce.

[degenerate_gambler]

Neither one. Both good players within the system but hardly difference makers or types you build your team around.

I'd hate to see the exclusiveness of jerseys hanging from the rafters watered down. Johnny Moore's is debatable.

[MoSpur]

Just got here. I would much rather see Bruce's number retired. The guy has been awesome for the Spurs. His numbers will never be outstanding in the box score, but none of that matters with Bruce. Not only that. He is a great community guy.

[MadDog73]

OK, here's a legitimate question:

If we retire AJs number, what current starter's jersey shouldn't be retired as well?

Tim.
Manu.
Parker.
Horry.
Bruce.
AJ?

what's next? Rasho and Nazr?

[themvp]

Absolutely Bruce.